Good evening,
I’ve been contemplating a double rifle for years now and having read a great deal of great advisement in this forum, I finally joined and seek your counsel. I have a friend that has allowed me to shoot his Lancaster oval bore 450 BLE and then a 375 2 1/2 NE, which was like giving a crack addict their first hit. Other than this, I’ve no real experience with a DR; I have however chased Ruffed Grouse for years with vintage sxs shotguns, so the sight plane and double triggers is quite natural for me. My big game hunting is predominantly in Pennsylvania for whitetail and black bear with the hopes of one day taking an elk here in my home state. To date I primarily still hunt in timber with open sights and utilize a detachable scope mount system to use an optic if on stand or in open setting(Merkel k3 and then Blaser k95, now a R93). I don’t have great experience reloading, but have all equipment and an excellent mentor to help with learning that skill better. I am trying to stay on a more light DR as I cruise large tracts of mountain ground, and have considered an 8x57jrs or 9.3x74r, but an open to suggestions? I can stand a little recoil, but definitely don’t want something to dislodge fillings in my teeth. On another note my friend has offered this Lancaster 375 2 1/2 NE and he has load data, brass, dies and bullets. It is a beautiful DR, but well over 115 years old and an oval bore…not sure if that should concern me. I want to shoot and hunt with whatever I end up with and get good with it. I’m in my early 50’s and want to scratch this DR itch before older age and older eyes catch up with me. Any intel would be greatly appreciated. Thank you so very much,
WB

Welcome. The DR itch is persistent, and it should be. Great firearms. I've yet to venture into the British DRs, but have owned a few German, French, Italian and USA makes. I'm down to two Heym DRs (my favorite), but the French Chapuis has never let me down - although I don't find these to be as smooth or well regulated as the Heym (my experience). My experiences with the Italian and USA brands has been dismal .... If you think you'll go to Africa for DG, or just want to dream and be prepared, then the 450/400 NE is hard to beat. I shoot a LH 470 NE, but if I had to do it over, I would go with the milder recoil of the 450/400 NE (400 grain bullet vs 500 grain bullet). More than adequate for anything that walks this earth, and a little more pleasant to shoot than a 470 or 500. My oldest son used a Heym 450/400 for elephant and buffalo with great results. The 9.3 by 74R is a great round as well, but not sure it meets the legal minimum in all African countries for DG, especially the bigger members. For several years I had a Chapuis 9.3 by 74R that my boys used to become proficient shooting a DR with double triggers. My younger son has never forgiven me for selling it .... In my experince, hard to go wrong Heym or Chapuis, but there's many others out there that I have no experience with. In the smaller calibers (9.3 by 74R and 450/400), the Chapuis barrels seem very thin-walled to me, but some very respected DR gunsmiths claim they're tough as nails. As for sights, the regulation of the DR hinges on the many things, including the overall rifle weight (influences rifle movement during recoil). For heavier sights (scopes), it needs to be regulated with the scope (or one of similar dimensions and weight). Mine are regulated with open sights, but I use small, light red dot sights (Trijicon, Docter). I can certainly recommend either, and suggest you use models that sense ambient light and adjust dot brightness accordingly. Lastly, but unfortunately a reality, check ammo availability and reloading component availability when deciding a caliber. I started looking yesterday for .470 ammo or brass and was shocked by the complete lack of both!

If you don't mind hammers and black powder or nitro for black loading I have an English William Powell in excellent original condition with excellent bores in 500/450 No. 1 Express. I am looking at selling and it will be in the $7,100 price range. Since it is an antique I can ship it directly to you. It uses standard .458 bullets, and the standard load is a bullet in the 300-grain range at around 1,800 feet per second. I have had the rifle for several years, loaded up some test rounds, and have still not gotten around to shooting it. I would include 45 rounds of brass. PM me if you would like more information.

Thank you for current input, but I’m thinking the 450/400 3” is more than I need; I have no plans to go to Africa where critters can put you in the ground.

As far as a hammer DR, I appreciate the offer on that, but I know I’d be shopping for a hammerless sxs DR, and whether vintage or current production remains to be determined. I’m not looking to collect or buy multiple DR…looking at buying one good one, and using the heck out of it! Thank you!

I would go with a Merkel 140 in 9.3x74R or .375 H&H Magnum. I have owned several doubles over the years and the Merkel 140 has been the most consistent in being well regulated.

Given the parameters you have established for using a double, which does not include Africa, I would also go with the 9.3 x 74R or .375 Flanged Nitro Express.

Tell us exactly what you are going to shoot. I've owned them all; old and new. Except Heyms; they are overpriced.
I think I read that Chapuis barrels are thin walled???
I have owned 4 of those. Maybe 5. You can't compare DR barrels to a bolt action!

Whitetail deer and black bear are the primary quarry with a possibility of an elk at some point. Most of my shooting in timber will be typically 100 yards or less.

I’m intrigued by my friends offer of his Lancaster oval bore .375 2 1/2” NE, as he has everything I need to load for it, to include over 100 pieces of proper brass and apparently a good load that it likes. Perhaps see if we can shoot it together at 50 and 100 yards and see if it is good as he says? He advised it would be a good round for what I’m looking to do.

Thank you for continued advice
WB

Walt,

Take your time in deciding what you want. Do you want a modern gun or a vintage gun. Shoot your friend’s gun and see how you like the feel of a DR.

Ken

Make sure you can obtain a good supply of ammo for the caliber you choose before deciding. Same goes for brass and bullets if you reload.

quote:

Originally posted by Walt99:
Whitetail deer and black bear are the primary quarry with a possibility of an elk at some point. Most of my shooting in timber will be typically 100 yards or less.

I’m intrigued by my friends offer of his Lancaster oval bore .375 2 1/2” NE, as he has everything I need to load for it, to include over 100 pieces of proper brass and apparently a good load that it likes. Perhaps see if we can shoot it together at 50 and 100 yards and see if it is good as he says? He advised it would be a good round for what I’m looking to do.

Thank you for continued advice
WB

That makes a lot of sense to me. The caliber is more than adequate and you have nothing to lose by giving your friend's rifle a try.

Besides that, Denys Finch Hatton is good company to keep in the choice of double rifles!

Wrt caliber: The friend's 375 sounds neat. Shouldn't kick too much but can step up to larger game. 8x57jrs is a good round. Similar to 30 06 power level. 7x65r might also be interesting. Low recoil and flat shooter, though usually that's not the main purpose of the double rifle. None are easy to find at Walmart.

Next question; how much recoil do you want to handle? And do you want an old one or new one?
I would recommend a 9.3x74, but the recoil is not light; I like them, but they are not for everyone. So an 8mm might be better, depending.
A new Chapuis is always a good choice; I have a 9.3 that shoots into one inch at 50. And I have had several of them. 9.3s I mean. Currently have 3; also a Krieghoff and one I built. Always a good idea to shoot one first; come over and I'll let you shoot some.
Personally, I hunt deer and hogs with a 450 NE, but that might not be for everyone.

Actually some of my favorite DRs are Kodiak muzzle loaders. I have a 54 that shoots well into two inches with power belts; that is the standard even for cartridge guns. Killed a hog with it last year. And I bought another .58 yesterday. And you don't have to reload or find brass!

Thank you very much for all the great information! I honestly don’t know what my recoil threshold would be. Most of my experience with cartridge rifles has been the typical 270, 30-06, and the 7x57 in 7-8lb guns. I owned a 300 Weatherby years ago, but the sharp recoil left me flinching a lot, so I sold that. The 450 BPE and that .375 2 1/2” I got to try when my friend was developing loads for regulation didn’t bother me in the least. I think trying some out would be wise as I know this will be a significant investment of wampum and I’m no millionaire. I live in central Pennsylvania and would be up for a reasonable distance road trip? As far as old vs new, I honestly like older as imagine the story a gun could tell from where it’s been, but I wrestle with the expensive endeavor to repair one should it go down. My Parker shotgun that I chase grouse with is a 1913 20ga Trojan that could probably fill two volumes of stories and it just has that ‘soul’ when you hold it. Thank you again gentlemen. I am enjoying this journey.
WB

I have just three doubles-a 470 NE, a 450-400 and a 375 flanged. If it were me I would get either the 450-400 or the 375 flanged. Even a 375 H&H double rifle wouldn't be bad either. The 450-400 is my all around favorite. I was talked into buying one by another client of one of my Zimbabwe PH's. That client has more doubles than anyone that I personally know and the 450-400 was also his personal favorite. Besides, getting a double rifle will just set you up for the eventual siren's call of Africa. . . . .

Some good advice here from Michael Robinson and UEG. Now, on Lancaster oval bore: in the early-mid 20s Lancaster dropped the oval bore and used standard rifling because oval bores do not handle faster moving bullets well. That is not a problem with either of the Lancaster's you have seen in action. The 375 H&H 2-1/2 will do fine if the price is right AND you are willing to reload.

The better advice to go with either a 450/400 or a 375 H&H flanged magnum is spot on because you will eventually want to hunt in Africa. Trust us on this board, there's nothing like it.

You don't say if you are left or right-handed or which is your dominant eye, so I'm assuming you are right-handed and right-eye dominant. Nor do you mention a budget so that is likely not at issue. Plenty of very good doubles out there and the Board has given you sage advice.

Regards, Tim

Thank you all again for feeding this monster!

I’m right hand/right eye dominate

My original budget was around $10k, but I have been considering off loading other iron to fund this endeavor and goto mid-upper teens so that I would have ‘the’ DR and the ammo to feed it. I have read in many sources that a DR should fit its user very specifically similar to a good shotgun.

I hear what you're saying about Africa, but I seriously doubt my feet will ever make it there, and therefore question going into a heavier caliber…so that being stated, would I be overgunned with a 375 Fl Mag or 450/400 staying stateside?…

Lastly, no issues with reloading if need be, and have a mentor to teach me that skill to a finer degree than I currently possess between my ears.

WB

quote:

Originally posted by Walt99:
Thank you all again for feeding this monster!

I’m right hand/right eye dominate

My original budget was around $10k, but I have been considering off loading other iron to fund this endeavor and goto mid-upper teens so that I would have ‘the’ DR and the ammo to feed it. I have read in many sources that a DR should fit its user very specifically similar to a good shotgun.

I hear what you're saying about Africa, but I seriously doubt my feet will ever make it there, and therefore question going into a heavier caliber…so that being stated, would I be overgunned with a 375 Fl Mag or 450/400 staying stateside?…

Lastly, no issues with reloading if need be, and have a mentor to teach me that skill to a finer degree than I currently possess between my ears.

WB

Pierre Van def Walt wrote that the 375 Flanged was developed to regulate 270 and 235 gn bullets with the same powder charge as used for 300 gr bullets. I have found that my Chapuis regulates 300 and 235 gr bullets with 63 grains of RL—15.

You can use that rifle for deer or hogs here as well as elk or moose.

I think there is confusion with the 2 375 Flanged cartridges being discussed here...especially dorngo with 63gr of Reloader 15!!...won't fit in subject 21/2" cartridge!!

WALT 99 is talking about the diminutive 375 21/2" Flanged, a cartridge that is about 358 Winchester in power. Various loadings are 270gr, 300gr which are designed to shoot same point of aim... also 235 gr and 320gr... not same point of aim....40 grains of Cordite.

The other is the 375 Flanged Mag, a 2.94" case, usually 270, 300 gr bullet and 60gr Cordite. This is slightly less than 375 H&H BELTED Mag!! Huge difference.

The 9.3x74R is very similar to the 375FlMag and BELTED Mag and good for Moose, Elk, Brown and Grizz. I think an overkill for whitetail deer and black bear...

There is alot of controversy about the Oval Bore and its accuracy.It was abandoned for cut rifling, but a good friend has a 303 Brit Lancaster oval bore and it shoots great!!

Kynamco-Kynoch in UK loads for the 375 2.5" Nitro Express or simply 375 Express.

This would be a good starter cartridge to get into doubles...Pinto's Guns in Renton, WS has 2 375 2.5" NE available, a working, straight Cogswell & Harrison, and a Greener, fully engraved Facel Princeps... both well priced.

I have owned several, Farquharson, and doubles. They are easy to shoot. Hard and expensive to buy ammo or load for....

My great little Griffin and Howe 810/FRANCOTTE (Belgium) 405 Winchester is still available. US ammo over the counter, easy to load, recoil not bad in my Double or 1895 Winchester. I have shot deer, wild boar, Bison with my various 405s...a great modern double starter!!...Teddy Roosevelt shot lion and rhino and other game with his Winchester 1895 in 405!! A very versatile cartridge!!
You can see it in Classified Firearms Only... I will bump it up again.
I have just acquired my 3rd 375FlMag...I will use it on Moose this fall, and Buffalo in the Selous in July...I also shoot 450-400 3" and obviously the 470NE...too big for North America and starters...Don't go there!!
THAT'S MY 2 CENTS!!

BTW... there is a Lancaster 375 21/2" Oval Bore and fully cased presently on Gun Broker for sale, not auction... asking price is $14,xxx.....WAY TOO MUCH..... even with all of the ammo, brass, bullets, dies, articles in DGJ etc... it is a nice package that should be under $10,000 ... owner doesn't like my suggestion on pricing... I was interested, but not more than $10k!!

Beware that there is a world of Junk double rifles out there even in the most sought after brands, so seek help and its always a good idea to try one out before you buy..considering your recoil problem with a 300 Wby, you need to go with a 7x57 rimmed on the small end or the 9.3x74 on the top end..Id suggest for a first double that you take a look at a Searcy as they are so damn accurate, Ive hunted Africa many times with my doubles, Army/Navy, Jefferys, Searcys, Id pick Searcy for a hunting rifle hands down and you can pick your caliber. Investment or Nostalgia an English rifle, but $10.000 won,t get you much and may getcha burned, but again seek help locally if you can..Ive bought and sold probably 25 doubles, keep in mind that most english rifles are old and been shot to death, bores are bad and if clean they are expensive..but I love them. Im onlyd passing on my own experiences. My favorite calibers were the 450-400 and 450-31/4,
My good friend Bill Morrison has a 250-3000 and today I lust for such a gun!

Doubles are at a low right now and may be a good time to buy or maybe not??They could get lower as powder, primers, brass are off the shelves and getting worse as opposed to better, Manufactures are dropping calibers in loaded ammo that are slow sellers is a consideration. I remember when I could have purchased a Holland and Holland at a gunshow in Boise Idaho for $2500. but then they were wall hangers as no ammo of any kind was available, it didn't even sell.

Thank you all again for all the great info! In doing more reading both online and with some books, perhaps an 8x57jrs would be a good fit? Any thoughts on the Krieghoff classic? The concept of user adjustable barrels on the current models seems to have some like them for that reason and others that steer clear. I also found a vintage Merkel on GI that is intriguing, but my friend advised it’s been listed for years and is overpriced??

https://www.gunsinternational....cfm?gun_id=101787360

Thoughts on this one?

Thank you again guys!

Wish you all the best. I know what it feels like. I ended up very lucky - getting a half price Verney Carron 470NE on Holts auctions. What an experience it was.

I have been to the US and shot about 8 different doubles from 7mm to 600NE with friends. Yes it was crack, heroin and sex addiction all together!

From the info you provide, you would be well service with a 7mm or 8mm rimmed cartridge in a rifle of maximum 8 lbs. A 9.3X74R would be great but would probably weigh 9 lbs.

A Verney Carron would be great (taht is what I have) and I am told that they are better than Merkel & Chapuis. A Heym is the best among current European guns of mid range price.

I would keep a look on Holts auctions as they come up with some real bargains regularly. High quality Germa and Austrian doubles in 7mm & 8mm for less than $5000

I am sure you will have a lot of fun just looking for the right rifle.

There is a very good alternative to a double rifle, if you are after a gun for pottering about in the woods and shooting deer and other similar game and that is a combination gun. If you can find a good one built with a detachable scope in 7x65r, 7x57r or 8x57R, with a 16 or 12bore barrel you have a very versatile gun. And you don’t have to spend double rifle money.

Given that the OP is in the land where shotgun slugs are readily available and widely used, then on bigger animals you have an accurate rifle that will be good to however far you want, a rifle and a slug for when things get up close and personal, and a shot barrel for the times when mr Deer fails to turn up and smaller game shows up.

Most combinations are over and unders, and many were built with sets of barrels - a double rifle pair, combination pair and double shot pair. Many were built in the guilds of Ferlach and Suhl so you will see them by different makers - many are are pretty much the same gun underneath, just finished differently.

Holts used to include many in their auctions, but flow seems to be drying up. Egun.de usually has several up for sale. In North America, New England Custom Guns seem to be a major source of nice things.

470Eddy is correct. My rifle is a 375 Flanged Magnum. Don’t confuse the two.

I do like combination guns and have handled a bunch over the years, but it’s a SxS double rifle itch that needs scratched!

WB

Any thoughts on this one?

https://www.gunsinternational....cfm?gun_id=101787360

Also looked at Searcy’s site/info and it appears he predominantly makes stuff .375 and up…I plan to reach out to him, but anyone know if he has made a light double rifle in 8x57jrs or .303??

Thanks for continuing to feed the fire on this guys!
WB

The proper name for a double barrel gun with a rifle and a shotgun bore is a CAPE GUN, three barrels is a DRILLING. I agree that these are specialty pieces and not starter guns, unless you happen to find a double rifle with shotgun bore below. RARE and expensive, and a special purpose gun.

This Merkel is a nice pre-war piece, parts are not available and would have to be made if something breaks. In my humble opinion this is a $7-8000 piece, and falling. Small caliber doubles don't bring prices of Dangerous Game calibers.

You should do a search on this forum and others on Butch Searcy to learn about the issues of follow up repairs, etc on his doubles. I think Butch is late 60s or into his 70s now, and I would wonder how much longer he will be in the business??... or if he has trained a follow on team?? Parts availability....??

I would also stick with an EJECTOR rifle vs Extractor. The earlier photo you displayed was an Extractor double, the plate below the chambers was solid, not split as in an Ejector rifle.

To keep your prices down, I think you would be wise to stick with a modern Merkel, Chapuis, or Heym where parts are still available.

The 303 BRITISH would be a super starter double and you can buy Federal Factory ammo at US prices that shoot very well and bit more powerful than a 30-06... for deer, Elk, Moose or Black bear. I recently sold my beautiful Holland and Holland Dominion which was a great shooter... more than $2000 less than your posted Merkel!!

Good luck!!

WALT,
Did you buy the 7.5 Francott??

Is that the one at Puglisi??

Friend of mine, expert, had evaluated it and thinks it was chambered to 30-40 Krag!! Small world!!

Did the chamber case prove this out??

The 7.5 was a WW I military cartridge... I can't find any info on in Cartridges of the World or Wikipedia??

CheerZ,

Negative…unfortunately family and work commitments have been taking most of my time as of late. I did look at your Francotte 405 and did some research on the cartridge, which looks to be a wonderful North American big game round, but then I had other matters to attend to, so this quest was put on the back burner for a spell.

While on the topic of your 405, what kind of accuracy are you getting?
How does the English stock do in terms of recoil?
Stock dimensions?

Probably should check your classified on this rifle, but had an op to check in on the forum and see what additional info some of you fine chaps might have left me?

Thank you
WB

Walt,
I Bumped my ad on my FRANCOTTE in CLASSIFIED FIREARMS ONLY so it is easy yo find.

The LOP is 14 1/2" and is more Continental than English. A bit more drop, however I haven't measured the Drop.

The rifle shoots very accurately with either the Winchester Teddy Roosevelt Commemorative ammo, or Hornady factory. Recoil is easy even with checkered steel buttplate, with trap.

You will see that dies, brass and Woodleigh bullets are included if you want them. I also shoot a Teddy Roosevelt styled custom 1895 Winchester like he shot on his 1909 safari. The 405 proved well on that safari. I have taken Russian Boar, Moose, and Bison with this rifle. Mine is not a take down...

CheerZ, Steve
Mobile 253 677 8950

I really like Searcy and Butch will make about any caliber as far as I know in a double or a single shot..A modern Merkle double is a nice hunting double and most Ive seen shot well and they are not expensive by double standards, come in 9.3x62 and larger calibers..feel good and point well in deed, some folks snob them but without trying them out it seems..

I am very high on francotte doubles, they are the full equal of the English doubles for a using rifle, would be nice in the 405 for sure. but 405s might be borderline recoil for you based on your posts.

Keep in mind that doubles unlike bolt guns are to be on zero with a regulation load for a soft and a solid and not monkied with..

quote:

Also looked at Searcy’s site/info and it appears he predominantly makes stuff .375 and up…I plan to reach out to him, but anyone know if he has made a light double rifle in 8x57jrs or .303??

Call him and talk to him. He has made rifles-doubles and single shot rifles-in numerous calibers. He has made them for the rich and famous and then for people like us who are not so rich and famous. Think Steve Spielberg, Tom Selleck, etc., etc.,etc. He also reverse engineered a prototype Rigby Rising Bite from an original Rigby Rising Bite for Rigby a number years ago, when they were starting up again. I know this for a fact, because I reviewed the agreement as his attorney at the time.

I was in same position as OP about 10-11 yrs ago, no real intention of going to Africa, eventually decided it wasn't what I wanted to do after all was said and done, didn't want the trophies.
But, I did buy a Kreighoff Classic in 30 R Blaser, had it set up with the Big 5 stock, irons, peep and a Recknagel swingoff scope mnt, regulated for 90M with 185gr RWS ammo. Wanted something like a 300H&H or 300H&H rimmed, Kreighoff had the 30R Blaser. Looked at that, good enough for N. America for certain. I'd likely been just as happy with a 7mm or a 6.5 of one form or another, 30R does work well though.
There are guns like that out there, they appear once in a while, Chapuis, K-gun, Merkel. Even some folk seem happy with the FAIR Iside, which I found to be a bit light, but, it is cheaper.

Is this Krieghoff Classic one that you can adjust regulation or is it set by factory?

I looked at one done years ago at a Cabelas, but can’t remember a lot about it.

Thank you
WB