https://www.gunsinternational....cfm?gun_id=101041513

This one is the stuff of dreams. Lots of neat things about it, that I have never really seen in an A&N double.

1. .450 no2 chambering
2. Sidelock
3. Extended top tang
4. The dolls head looks more like a Jeffrey branded, Leonard built version, or westley Richards that the normal clover leaf style of the phv-1 webley.

I freaking love it. I think it is one of the most beautiful double rifles I have ever seen.

It is also really expensive.

Colin;

Yes, it has a very nice and lovely classic form to it, but it leaves questions in my mind also as to its origin in Birmingham. I have written to my friend, Douglas Tate author of BIRMINGHAM GUNMAKERS and asked him what he thinks. I am not certain the shape of the locks plates are Webley style, not withstanding I believe it is likely Webley.

Expensive--you are quite right, of course Dave Cruz, late of Hollands, now a partner of the selling company for the rifle, knows how to market such rifles to the folks who can pay. It is tarted up in the proper way except for the fit head of the stock (a re-stock), but to guys like me a re-case colored double rifle action is a deal killer. The leather covered recoil pad is well executed.

Somebody spent a LOT of $$$ on the total restoration plus case.
Agree with Transvaal’s comment on the re-color of the action; and my personal thing is avoiding a rejointed/tightened rifle action with a dollshead. That dollshead never fits right again, means the thing was shot loose at some earlier time and now loses the extra lockup strength that the dolls head was meant to provide.
No mention of what the bores look like......

Damn nice and pricey. However, the two guys above know what they are talking of.

quote:

I freaking love it. I think it is one of the most beautiful double rifles I have ever seen.

absolutely agree.

Ok guys: I am going to sound like a jerk. Please forgive and look over that. I ask these questions wanting knowledge not to harpoon anyone.

1) What is the tales that the rifle has been restocked? The Stock looks aged. The space at the head of the stock around the action plate looks like the plate does not belong to that stock giving one the impression of a re-stock. Or the wood could have shrunk away from the metal?

2) What are the tells the rifle has been refitted or was loose? The Dolls Head looks seamless in the action. The left barrel has a deep impression/scratch. Is that impression telling anyone anything?

3) Why does a proper retightening not allow the doll's head to act against the flex of the rifle being fired?

4) Assuming the rifle has been restored (tightened and restocked) should not the seller indicate as such in his ad/listing for the rifle? I know the English/Euro market is not hung up against restoration work limiting value like the American Firearms market which values originality. However, if redone is not the gentleman practice to acknowledge the re-done work and by whom?

I know that Number 4 sounds or even does attack the integrity of the seller. Such is not my desire. If I am wrong about the issue someone tell me, and I will never ask again.

Thank you.

I cant say whether it has been restocked or not.
If anything, the forend wood looks like its been replaced as it is proud all around the forend iron whereas the wood of the butt is even or low. Also, the color is lighter and the checkering doesn't look to match perfectly.
It has shoe lump barrels - is that the line you are talking about?

There are a lot of options in the double market at this price even better condition Holland Royals. The 450 at Hallowell's comes to mind and $12K less!
It's $30K overpriced IMO.

Country Pursuits tries, like a few others, to over price their guns and rifles to appear high end. This rifle is way over priced.
Cal

My feelings are that if the gun has been worked on, fine. As long as it is by the 5 or 6 people in the U.S. qualified to do it, or the people in Europe. I would really expect people be forthcoming about that info.

No there is a line/indention on the left barrel in the picture over the breach. It is not the shoe lump.

What does a basic side lock Westley Richards in 450/400 or 450NE cost? I think a drop lock new is not much more than the asking price for this A&N.

Champlins have many doubles of pedigree that could be done up and cost a lot less.

I am no expert. JMHO.

I bet you can not get into any new Westley Richards double rifle for less than $80,000.

https://www.theexplora.com If I could afford it, I would take a bespoke Westley Richards over a bespoke Holland and Holland any day of the week.

Yep ,

WR fixed box lock start at $80,000.

Droplock at $100,000 and side locks at $130,000

There is no “basic” side lock .They come as a deluxe fully engraved

and embellished rifle. The box lock is the only one that comes in “basic” version
ie little engraving etc.

The Army Navy is grossly overpriced in my opinion.

Sure looks like a crack coming off the rear of the left lock.

I don't like it.You can get a 10X better rifle like a Searcy for much less.

quote:

shootaway:
I don't like it.You can get a 10X better rifle like a Searcy for much less.

Some people are satisfied with just a tool......some of us enjoy having a piece of usable history.

“Much less” in this case is a deflection since this rifle is grossly overpriced considering what it is and the visible issues. I personally think that this rifle needs to wind up in some well heeled non-shooters collection right alongside his trophy wife.

quote:

Originally posted by Redstone:

quote:

shootaway:
I don't like it.You can get a 10X better rifle like a Searcy for much less.

Some people are satisfied with just a tool......some of us enjoy having a piece of usable history.

“Much less” in this case is a deflection since this rifle is grossly overpriced considering what it is and the visible issues. I personally think that this rifle needs to wind up in some well heeled non-shooters collection right alongside his trophy wife.

Mine is history in the making!

if i squint I think it looks like a WC Scott. The engraving is reminiscent...kinda... but dont know if they were ever in the big bore trade

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:
if i squint I think it looks like a WC Scott. The engraving is reminiscent...kinda... but dont know if they were ever in the big bore trade

“Big Bore Trade”, as in Nitro Express?
Sure, in fact I have a W&C Scott toplever hammer double rifle in .500/.450 3-1/4” Nitro, proved for the Cordite tropical load, made in 1899.
The 1914 Webley & Scott catalog offers all the way up to .600 Nitro.
- Mike

It is a pretty double rifle, but at that price I pass!
………………………………………………………..

I'd shy away from that rifle based on many factors which have been pointed out above. The re-color and the crack behind the left lock plate concern me the most. I also think in today's market the caliber, while certainly effective, is a drawback.

The price is also much too high. If a buyer is interested in a sidelock double rifle, a H&H Royal is a better option.

All right, my take. #1: I love the caliber, low pressure NE. #2: Beautiful refinish and refinished aren’t always bad. Someone spent a fortune on this refinish on a rifle that was originally maybe worth a little more than the cost of the refinish. #3: The crack on left side behind action is suspect, but if properly repaired shouldn’t affect the performance as a basic shooter. But for that price, considering the cost of the refinish why not just restock it. #4: Crazy price. So many original Holland’s, Purdeys, or Westleys. Heck, a new Holland round action DR can be had for less than $100K. JJ and Champlins has a number of really nice original guns for $25K up.

Wouldn’t touch it, maybe for $15-$18K. Still love that caliber.

To my eye, if the butt is a restock, they went to a lot of trouble to make it look old. Look at the Drop Points, they show signs of more than one refinish, as said, the wood is barely proud and that crack looks typical for an old sidelock. I am no expert, that is just my impressions. I am also somewhat surprised that it has shoe lump barrels instead of chopper lumps. I have a couple of A&N bolt guns and a sidelock 12 Ga. and buy good ones if I find them reasonable, lots of history there. In my opinion, thats about a 20k rifle.

That 'line' on the left barrel is deep, it's clearly visible on the right side.
Of course, the shoe lump might have something to do with it.

I do not think that line is the shoelump. It is in a he middle of the barrel. It looks like a deep pressed in line. It is a good deal above where the lumps start or the shoe/dovetail starts.

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
Country Pursuits tries, like a few others, to over price their guns and rifles to appear high end. This rifle is way over priced.
Cal

Or my Army Navy is way underpriced.

On the left side that looks like a reflection of light off the top edge of the shoe lump. If you notice it is the same length, just the angle it was photographed from.

The general talk is that Webley & Scott made more than 50% of ALL Double Nitro rifles ever in the British gun trade.

They even made rifles finished by Westley Richards & H&H. Most William Evans rifles were Webley made. Also Army & navy, London Sporting park etc.

quote:

Originally posted by Redstone:

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:
if i squint I think it looks like a WC Scott. The engraving is reminiscent...kinda... but dont know if they were ever in the big bore trade

“Big Bore Trade”, as in Nitro Express?
Sure, in fact I have a W&C Scott toplever hammer double rifle in .500/.450 3-1/4” Nitro, proved for the Cordite tropical load, made in 1899.
The 1914 Webley & Scott catalog offers all the way up to .600 Nitro.
- Mike

A couple of years ago I sold a Army/Navy with a broken stock ( broke off at the grip) to one of the salesmen at Gary Hoppers Guns in Boise Idaho for $8000..I sold it for Barry Van Heerden PH, Tanzania...It was a 577 nitro Express..I have often wished I had purchased it myself but I was paying for a Safari at the time and my billfold was about 3 lbs lighter than a cork..The buyer ran a threaded bolt in the grip and glassed it all together, cleaned te checkering and shot it for awhile I heard he sold it for triple and some for what he paid for it, Good on him..He used his head, I didn't.