Howdy All:

I'm curious about the cause of the results I got using a Blaser S2 .470 NE double rifle awhile back. This first target are my results using Woodleigh 500 grain solids at 100 yards, with scope, from a Caldwell Lead Sled. I shot a total of 80 rounds through this rifle.

I labeled the shots R1 through R6 (for the right barrel) and L1 through L6 for the left. Barrels were alternated. As you can see, the right barrel fired five shots into one ragged hole just under the point of aim, with the sixth shot about one inch lower. The left barrel shots were all several inches high and left of the point of aim (the point of aim was the center of the target) and the shots were much more dispersed.



This is the target the Blaser gunsmith made when he tried to fix the rifle. His shots were from 50 meters and he has a similar pattern with the three shots from the right barrel in one ragged hole and the left barrel shots high and left. You can see how he adjusted the left barrel with his three shots.



When I got the rifle back from Blaser, I again fired it at 100 yards and essentially got the same results I had before I sent the rifle in, with the left barrel still shooting about six inches high and left. I spoke with the Blaser gunsmith and he said he had no explanation. Does anyone have any ideas as to what the cause of this situation was with this rifle?

I think since I could put five shots into one hole at 100 yards it was not operator error. Of course my shooting from the shooting sticks was not as good as from the bench rest.

In the meantime I have traded it for a Krieghoff, but as I (and the guys at Cabela's) are curious and I just recently learned how to post photos on AR. Thanks.

Looks like barrels have a regulation problem. You didn't say what load you wre using, but you can move them clsoer together with a somewhat faster load. Not sure there is any way to fix the higher / lower group problem except reregulating. The barrels are probably not coplanar. That all said, there are better experts here who may have a more sophisticated view.

A double rifle will not shoot to the same POI using a lead sled as holding the rifle.

The only way to determine if your rifle is shooting well is to hold the rifle as you would if you were shooting off hand since the double rifle requires recoil to make the barrels shoot together and at the correct height.

If you were to put the barrels in a vise using the sights to aim to a bullseye, you will see, by looking down the bore, that the right barrel
poits left and down and the left barrel vice versa. The recoil makes the right barrel rise in an arch up and to the right since it is off center, the opposite for the left barrel. Barrel time, determined by your loads velocity, determines when the bullet leaves the respective barrel. You've got the right load and/or regulation when the bullet leaves the muzzle when the barrel is pointed at the target. Ideal regulation and load will result in the bullet leaving the right and left barrels when they are parrallel to the former - before recoil - line of sight. So the ideal target with one right and one left fired looks like a figure 8 laying on its side, right barrel on right, left on left.

To duplicate offhand recoil off a bench, for accuracy, you would hold the barrels with your left hand (assuming you are right handed) and rest your right hand on the bags. Sit as upright as possible, btw. The rifle butt should be unsupported but you can support your right hand by resting your forearm on bags.

A standing bench will result in less felt recoil and is the best way to do it, but it works off a regular sitting bench too, but sit as upright as possible.

Hope this helps.

JPK

Two different things here. One is that one barrel is considerably more accurate than the other. Not much you can do about that. The other is the "regulation". At 100 yards with whatever loads you were using, I would say that is not bad, especially for a 470. You could probably do better with some handloads as your shots are crossing. I am not sure what you expect from a large caliber double rifle designed as a "stopper"
Peter.

Thanks for the information guys.

I guess the results I expected from the Blaser would be what I get from the Krieghoff, which is about a three inch group at 100 yards with the shots not having much vertical separation, just horizontal (if that makes any sense). In other words, if the Blaser had fired the shots on that first target just left of the point of aim, and not eight inches high and left, I probably could have lived with that.

Holy cow. A 3" group at 100 yards. You must have eagle eyes.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Holy cow. A 3" group at 100 yards. You must have eagle eyes.

He uses a scope, but that's still pretty unheard of for a double at that range.

use a standing rest and see if this repeats

it is obviously a regulation issue ...

PSmith, I cannot tell what size the grid is on your first target, but, if it is a 1" grid, you are only 4" high with your left hand barrel. If so, I don't consider that too bad for a 470. Now, it is was a scoped 500/416 then I would probably be trying for something better. Is your K gun a 470 as well?
Peter.

Personally, I think it sucks for any double rifle, mine shoot a hell of a lot better.

But again, you can not gauge a rifle by shooting with a lead sled, it just doesn't work. Take the beating and shoot off either a standing or a sitting bench and you will have an idea of how the rifle shoots. BTW, no beating shooting off a standing bench, only off a sitting bench.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
Personally, I think it sucks for any double rifle, mine shoot a hell of a lot better.

But again, you can not gauge a rifle by shooting with a lead sled, it just doesn't work. Take the beating and shoot off either a standing or a sitting bench and you will have an idea of how the rifle shoots. BTW, no beating shooting off a standing bench, only off a sitting bench.

JPK

JPK is right, that is a crappy group to shoot with a scope. Do what he suggests and lose the lead sled and try from a sturdy standing rest.

You may need to play with the loading a bit to get a better horizontal group but there is not much that can be done short of a proper gunsmith regarding the vertical.

Good Luck

I'll not get into your discussion on the regulation of your double, other than to say JPK is right about the lead-sled, and I would add one more thing about the lead-sled with a double rifle, and that is you are endangering your stock with that thing! I may cause the stock to crack in the area where it joins the action. This is because the S/S double rifle not only recoils up, and back, but to the side as well! You can use the sled with an O/U double, however, because it recoils back, and up only! Lead-sleds and side by side double rifles do not mix, for all the reasons stated here!

I have a Merkle 470 NE and had the EXACT same issue. Right barrel hits to point of aim, and Left barrel hite 4 inches high at 50 yards from the lead sled. I went to Randy's and we loaded up some cast bullets. I shot with my hand under the forearm and it was a 2 inch group at 50 yards open sights. I also shot with the forearm resting on the sandbags and the exact same load started throwing the left barrel high and left. No choice man, you can not use the lead sled for load development. It drove me nuts(short trip).

It has already been said. Lose the lead sled. Shoot off a standing rest of some kind. Hold the gun as normal and use the rest to steady yourself. Packy

Just wanted to follow up on what I said in a post above.

When I shot Woodleigh Solids I did have better accuracy than the Trophy Bondeds. I think the Woodleighs averaged about 4 1/2 inches high and 2 1/2 inches left. I recall that with the Trophy Bondeds I didn't even print on the target with the left barrel; that was what I meant with the 8 inches high remark.

I also did not mean I expect a double .470NE to shoot a 3 inch group at 100 yards, or that I can with my crappy eyes. What I meant is, from a rest with a scope, I would expect a shot from the left barrel to print no more than 3 inches to the left of the shot from the right barrel. I expect very little vertical difference. I'm not saying I can do this, I'm just saying what my expectations of the rifle are.

The Blaser gunsmith said he was completely baffled by the results from the rifle and had no explanation. The Blaser people wanted to send the rifle to Germany, put it in a special vise they have and test it. I told them I really didn't have time for that sort of thing.

I only used the Lead Sled to sight in the scope; all my other practice shots were from the shooting sticks or off hand, mostly the sticks.

I did shoot a buffalo in Zim with the Blaser but then traded it for the Krieghoff 470 when I got back home. I've only fired it at 50 yards so far, and I'm very pleased with the accuracy.

quote:

Originally posted by Gator1:

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
Personally, I think it sucks for any double rifle, mine shoot a hell of a lot better.

But again, you can not gauge a rifle by shooting with a lead sled, it just doesn't work. Take the beating and shoot off either a standing or a sitting bench and you will have an idea of how the rifle shoots. BTW, no beating shooting off a standing bench, only off a sitting bench.

JPK

JPK is right, that is a crappy group to shoot with a scope. Do what he suggests and lose the lead sled and try from a sturdy standing rest.

You may need to play with the loading a bit to get a better horizontal group but there is not much that can be done short of a proper gunsmith regarding the vertical.

Good Luck

What he needs to do is through that damn lead sled in the trash, and rest the double rifle properly! the groups will never be worth crap, as long as that rifle is touching anything other then his face, hands, and his shoulder! The best regulating load in the world will scatter if the rifle is not allowed to recoil as if being fired off-hand, touching nothing but the shooter!!

Mac I understand that, but to sight in a scope don't you need to shoot from a rest?

Yes, and for heavy kickers it should be a standing bench if possible since a standing benchrest generates a lot less felt recoil.

For a double rifle, whether a sitting or standing bench is used, the rifle MUST be held as if you were shooting off hand so that it can recoil as if it were being shot off hand.

This means the forward hand - left for righties - needs to hold the barrels. The hand should rest on bags but the rifle must not. The rearward, trigger hand, right for you righties, holds the rifle's butt off the bench - no bags under the butt stock. If you need elevation then use bags under your elbow and/or right wrist. BTW, use a bag or smooth pad or cloth under your elbow or you'll be earning a scab.

Shooting this way off a sitting or standing bench rest is nearly as stable as a fully bag supported bolt rifle. Plently good for determining your rifle's accuracy potential and for sighting in scopes, dailing in express sights, fine tuning loading...

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
Yes, and for heavy kickers it should be a standing bench if possible since a standing benchrest generates a lot less felt recoil.

For a double rifle, whether a sitting or standing bench is used, the rifle MUST be held as if you were shooting off hand so that it can recoil as if it were being shot off hand.

This means the forward hand - left for righties - needs to hold the barrels. The hand should rest on bags but the rifle must not. The rearward, trigger hand, right for you righties, holds the rifle's butt off the bench - no bags under the butt stock. If you need elevation then use bags under your elbow and/or right wrist. BTW, use a bag or smooth pad or cloth under your elbow or you'll be earning a scab.

Shooting this way off a sitting or standing bench rest is nearly as stable as a fully bag supported bolt rifle. Plently good for determining your rifle's accuracy potential and for sighting in scopes, dailing in express sights, fine tuning loading...

JPK

JPK Answered your question in bold above. The rifle shoots no better touching anything other than your face, hands, and shoulder whether you are shooting with a scope or irons! The regulations depends totally on the rifle being free to recoil without henderance for anything other than the shooter holding the rifle!

Many modern doubles today will shoot with the average bolt action factory rifle IMO..using the same sighting system of course.

I have seen Searcys and Merkels shoot 1" at 50 yards on a number of guns. I prefer the Searcys myself. I have also seen a lot of English rifles that shot very well indeed, but I have been very lucky on that count over the years.

I wonder sometimes if the minute of grapefruit isn't shooter error in most instances???????

quote:

I wonder sometimes if the minute of grapefruit isn't shooter error in most instances???????

That and/or trying to rely on factory ammo, poor load development.

JPK

quote:

origenally posted by Ray Atkinson

I wonder sometimes if the minute of grapefruit isn't shooter error in most instances???????

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

I wonder sometimes if the minute of grapefruit isn't shooter error in most instances???????

That and/or trying to rely on factory ammo, poor load development.

JPK

Both opinions are spot on!