I spent a bit of time talking to Mr. Butch Searcy yesterday about double rifles. I am looking into building one of his Classic rifles in either .470NE or .500NE. What is the opinion of the more experiance double rifle shooters here?

Is there a significant differance between a 3" or 3 1/4" .500NE?

I am going to Tanzania on a Buff hunt in 2008.

I plan on hunting full bag one day soon as well.

I have shot my older brothers .470NE Chapuis and loved it. But not a .500NE

What do you all think?

Semper Fi and Good Hunting
Will

458:

I wager you'll get most guys saying to get a .470 for a number of reason, including recoil and the availability of ammo.

Before you make the jump, I would recommend that you shoot both a .470 and .500 and see which one you can shoot better.

A .470 will kill anything a .500 can, but as many guys who have been there and done that have stated, when the poop hits the fan, that little bit extra in the .500 was a welcomed companion.

But if you can't shoot a .500, that little bit ain't gonna help you.

I have a .500 NE and I do not believe there is much (if anything noticible) difference between the 3" and 3 1/4".

There is, however, a heck of a lot more 3" brass out there than 3 1/4" that I have seen.

We are having our next DRSS hunt in mid January. There will probably be over 25 DRs in camp during that hunt. Before you drop the bucks on a DR, coming to one of our get togethers and handle and shooting various DRs is well worth the few hundred bucks.

Thanks 577NE

How dose the recoil out of a .500NE compair to a Ruger .458 Lott 500 grain bullet. I shoot my Lott well and find the recoil on my brothers .470NE to be a little more comfortable.

I will do a seach on your hunt and see what it is all about.

Thank you.

Will

If I were a dedicated Elephant hunter that had no problem making my own ammunition I would go with the 500.
If It was to be used for a variety of game and ammunition might be an issue then I would pick the 470.
The fact that you know some one with a 470 would be another reason why I would also get the 470.
OZHUNTER

If your brother has a .470 NE you HAVE TO GET a .500 NE.

From what I've read not everyone agrees with me but I don't think the recoil feels much different between a .470 and .500.

The biggest deciding factor would probably be how much do you mind that ammo isn't as available for the .500.

I don't have much experience with the Lott, but I think the .500 kicks a lot less than my .460 Wby. and not a whole lot more than the .458WM.

Kyler

if you check the other post in this forum i have a searcy presidential grade 577 rifle for sale and in your price range if your interested i will have the owner send you pics.


my first double rifle was the 700 nitro express shoot what you feel you can handle. the 577 is a pussy cat in a proper weight gun....

458Lottfan,

I ordered one of Butch's Classic Dbls and Butch told me this week he would be ready to ship it in October. I ended up selecting the 470NE after flip-flopping between the 500NE. I ended up selecting the 470NE because I can get Norma brass and Northfork bullets (cup-point), if I could get these for the 500NE I would of probably ordered one.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kyler Hamann:
If your brother has a .470 NE you HAVE TO GET a .500 NE.

I'm to conservative to be different.
Must be my uniformed German upbringing.
ozhunter

Thanks Kyler

That was my thoughts exactly!!!!

Nothing like the younger brother carrying a bigger gun to keep the old sibling juices flowing after all these years.

I reload for all my center fire firearms. So ammo is not quite as critical.

Semper Fi and Safe Hunting

Get a 450/400 3 inch for your first double.

It's got plenty of penetration for whatever you want to hunt and it won't beat you to death.

You'll use it more and enjoy shooting it!
Just my opine.

Although the transaction is not complet yet I have started the process to purchase the Searcy .577NE thru 700nitro. I will have to see what is is like to shoot.

Now that I will have a .577NE I will have to take my .458 Lott for my light PG gun .

Well, you may not like shooting the .577 NE but at least you'll be able to tease your brother about his "squirrel gun".

Kyler

I second Rusty's opinion. Just my 2 cents worth.


Dutch

I'd buy another double but my pecuniary status is temporarily at a depressed level.

quote:

Originally posted by Kyler Hamann:

From what I've read not everyone agrees with me but I don't think the recoil feels much different between a .470 and .500.

Kyler

Recoil on the 500 is much more felt recoil than the 470, if both are loaded to the same speed, as the 500 is either a 570gr or a 600, and the 470 is 500.

now I KNOW others will disagree with me, so let me frame this. if the rifle is not built for you or you happen to fit it perfectly, a double rifle kicks more than a bolt gun, in the same weight and more or less the same caliber.

for example, I find a 458winmag, 500gr at a nominal 2150, in a 8.5# gun to be brisk, but not unpleasant.. the 470, same bullet weight and speed, in a 10# gun, muzzle flips and kicks more than a light 458 win.

but I built the 458 to fit me, so it's not really fair... well, I built it to fit my son, but you get the point.

Mike Jines and I shot his 470 merkel and my 470AR, back to back, swapping guns.. the AR, 500gr at 2300, in a 10# gun, kicked FAR less than his heym...

let me restate, recovery time was far quicker, but of course, the double's second shot was faster.

Caliber? the 470 has the greatest retained or increased value, these days.

jeffe

Jeffe:

That's a rather...er, ah, ...amazing statement. Excepting an old Rigby .470 that always hit me in the face, I've never fired a big bore double rifle that hurt me. I assiduously avoid big bore bolt rifles because they're too fucking brutal to be any fun.

A good friend's .500/.416 double is more pleasant to shoot off the bench than any .375 Magnum bolt rifle I've ever shot. CFA's Holland .500/.465 was more pleasant for me off the bench than any .416 bolt rifle. I can't imagine a .500 Nitro double that I wouldn't rather shoot than any of the .458s. Given comparable caliber, fit that is at least close to the ball park, and weight that is reasonable for both, the big bore doubles will ALWAYS produce less felt recoil than the bolt cranker trash, period.

I understand that some people just hate doubles and feel the need to on 'em whenever they get a chance, but your post is just pure internet invention.
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For me I hate the 500 NE in a Merkel. I've shot Pauls, and my buddy David's 500.

Just too much recoil for me! I don't know what it is. All I know is I don't like it!

An 11 pound 475#2 Jeffery is just about my limit for comfortable shooting.

My 404 Jeffery, shooting 400 grain bullets at 2100 FPS is not unpleasant, but just about what I can handle and not be beat up.

I feel double rifle do a better job for me in felt recoil. However, I've been slapped by bolt and double rifles alike.

In my opine, felt recoil is a very personal matter!

Not to bust on your bubble, but that 577, while being a "fun" gun to shoot, is a bit more recoil than I care to shoot for an extended period. If you just want a "stopper" and only plan to shoot just enough to be proficient for a safari or two... get the biggest gun you can stand for a short period. If you want a big gun that's easy to find factory ammo for get the 470... If you're going to reload, either the 470 or 500... if you're going to buy a double to shoot for the rest of your life, take it out 10 or 20 times a year... 450/400 is just a nice gun to shoot, great selection of bullets to choose from, and you have quite a few guys on here with them to get load info from... just remember... it's easier to find a 470 or 500 later on... but a nice 450/400 is tough to get...

Mark,
I plain ole love double guns... not to have a pisser, but I know what my shoulder tells me...

If a bolt gun has more felt recoil with more drop... and a lever gun in 30/30 generally has more felt recoil than a bolt 308....

and a smaller pad has more felt recoil than a larger one...

and a heavier gun, of the same stock design, has LESS recoil....

well, that all being said, I'll be happy to arrange to be at a houston area range, with the following..

500 jeffe - 600gr at 2125fps, about 9.5#
470 AR - 500gr at 2150 ~10.25
416AR - 400gr at 2200 (9.75 ish)
postal scale
chronograph...
digital camera that does videos


and you (and anyone that wants to come) can bring something suitable to match those diameters and velocities...

and we can each shoot a couple from each gun, at those vels....

and we can let our videos and perceptions decide the story....

or just a recoil calc...
the 470AR throws a 500 gr at 2150 with 75gr of powder in a 10.5# gun... about 62# of recoil and rather pleasant to shoot....


Of course the MOST brutal kicking big bore i've ever shot was Mike's 500 merkel, with a short stock... it weighes 1.5# more than my jeffe, and FEELS twice as bed.

jeffe

Here's kind of my point..

Here's a pic of me shooting my 550 express, 700 gr at 2130, sub 11# rifle.. the video clip is on my website, on the 550 express page, but you'll see these are the extremes in muzzle flip




and if you look at the DRSS shoot, you'll see a couple pics of the 577 NE being shot... muzzle flip is MUCH higher...

Okay, to be fair, the 550 is somethign I shoot all the time.. and the 577 is new to everyone...

So you can look at the other video
http://www.weaponsmith.com/550-exp.html link is on the far bottom right...

That's Gene's first shot with anything over 45/70, and his first shot with a 550

jeffe

Jeffe:

Been there, done that already. Your problem is that you've never shot a big double that fits you - and short of having one restocked, you never will, and I know that you haven't done that. Off the rack double rifles will never be long enough to fit a guy like you. I've shot a .458 bolt rifle and a .470 double from the bench on the same day. Sorry mate, but the difference is HUGE. PHC got that one right, the big doubles are pussycats for recoil.

Do yourself a favor - get a used double of your choice and have it restocked to fit you by a British stockmaker, not an American. You'll leave that bolt crap behind you in a heartbeat, just like I did.

BTW, I've shot a .500 Merkel. It wasn't as bad as the .458 was.
------------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Heck, You are probably right.. but lets get a big bore shoot going, anyway

The 577 I used to shoot was actually fairly close.. 14 1/4.. so only about 1/2" short...

jeffe

Just so you all know I just notified the owner of the .577 that I will not be purchasing the rifle.

I had a conversation with Mr. Searcy a little while ago and got new info on the rifle.

It is open to who ever is next in line.

If you need info on the gun call Mr. Searcy yourself and get it from him or maybe 700Nitro I do not want to be missquoted or missreprestnt anything.

Thanks

Will Barks

I'm having Butch Searcy make me a 450 N.E. regulated with 500 grain bullets which can get the job done. Whether it's a 450, 465, 470, 475 caliber double, terminally it's a wash-out, they are one in the same. The 500 is a different animal, and if you want one get it for it will kill harder than all of the above. Do you need one? Do you want one? Who cares go for it. As far as recoil, if you have a 10-10.5# 470 and you have a 11-11.5# 500 the recoil is going to be quite close in foot pounds of recoil (within 10-12 foot pounds).

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by Kyler Hamann:

From what I've read not everyone agrees with me but I don't think the recoil feels much different between a .470 and .500.

Kyler

Recoil on the 500 is much more felt recoil than the 470, if both are loaded to the same speed, as the 500 is either a 570gr or a 600, and the 470 is 500.

now I KNOW others will disagree with me, so let me frame this. if the rifle is not built for you or you happen to fit it perfectly, a double rifle kicks more than a bolt gun, in the same weight and more or less the same caliber.

for example, I find a 458winmag, 500gr at a nominal 2150, in a 8.5# gun to be brisk, but not unpleasant.. the 470, same bullet weight and speed, in a 10# gun, muzzle flips and kicks more than a light 458 win.

but I built the 458 to fit me, so it's not really fair... well, I built it to fit my son, but you get the point.

Mike Jines and I shot his 470 merkel and my 470AR, back to back, swapping guns.. the AR, 500gr at 2300, in a 10# gun, kicked FAR less than his heym...

let me restate, recovery time was far quicker, but of course, the double's second shot was faster.

Caliber? the 470 has the greatest retained or increased value, these days.

jeffe

Jeffe,

I'm glad to see someone speak the truth! Those doubles can be murder in the recoil department.

Jeffe:

Yeah, we should. It would be fun. Seems like every time you guys get together up at Keith's, I can't get away. I'll try to make it next time.

Somehow I figured you'd need a longer pull than that. Mine are 15".


Will:

Keep dreaming.
------------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

15 works for me in a bolt gun... so i'll bring a slip on pad!!
jeffe

Get the 500 3" and find out what Searcy uses for ammunition. If he is building 500NE's he has to have either a source of loaded ammunition (I got mine at Graf's) or load data. Plus Jamison is making some shortly I understand. Those yellow and red Kynoch five-pack boxes are impressive (and heavy)when you open one and see all that brass.
I think Eley owns them now as my last boxes are marked KYNAMCO LIMITED, PO Box 42, Royston SG8 9LZ England. The phone # is Tel.0 17 63/ 24 26 19 if you want to check on availability direct.

The 2150fps is condusive to a cast approximation load, and every bit as effective I would think, based on my chrono data. Go B-I-G, this ain't no prairie dog rifle.

Rich

butches 500 nitro 3 inch load is

570 woodliegh and 110 grains of imr 4831 and a federal 215 magnum primer