I know that some of you use wads (I think from Kynoch) in your Nitro Express calibers rather than dacron filler. I was wondering if someone could tell me (1)which wads would be appropriate for the .470, (2) where do you get the wads and, (3) what Reloder 15 load would you recommend as a starting load for the .470?

Dave....the #2 foam wad and a starting load of 87 gr of RL 15 with a 500 gr bullet. I ended up with 89 gr of RL 15 and a wad with 500 gr NF's and 90 gr of RL 15 and a wad with a 500 gr Woodie soft in the 470 I had...both had speed of 2175 fps and shot to same POA.

Gary
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Thanks Gary. Where do you get the #2 foam wads?

Dave,
You can order the wads from Trader Keith's, they run about $18 a bag for 100. They have their website up and working now. As for the starting load for your 470, I would start around 84-85 gr of RL15. My Merkel shoots very well at 87gr of RL15 with the woodleigh softnose and 86.5gr for the solids. With temperatures in the 80's, they chrono in the 2175-2200fps range. You may get a hot lot of RL15 which may take less powder. With the first lot of RL15 and my newer Merkel in 470, it only took 86gr to get to the 2150mv.

Dave......Ed nailed it...Trader Keiths. Ordered some today for myself. Must be in stock as they didn't call back! I use the 400-500 size which I think used to be called the #2 size.

I think Ed's loads are good but I found my Merkel liked just a touch more of the RL 15. Good advice on the powder though....RL 15 can run hot or cold from batch to batch...as much as 3-4 grains difference in my experience.

Good luck.

Gary
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Thanks again guys!

I have an article that suggests that one of the options that can be used as a filler is a product called "Super Grex" which is apparently a buffer that Winchester uses in some of their shotgun shells. Has anyone ever tried it? I have not been able to find it. The article I have was written in 1991 so maybe it is no longer available

Did I mention that you can get a "Bridge punch" and some foam and make 'em yourself? I do!

Here is a link to a previous thread
cutting your own wads

Are wads really necessary? Please enlighten me.

Thanks
Crl

I did not use wads when I first started to load for the 470 with RL15 and did not have any problems---accuracy was great. In reading an article by Graeme Wright, he explained that Federal used a 216 primer (with no filler) that was supposed to be hotter than the commercially available 215 primer that ignited the RL15 powder. He also explained that the main concern was that shells carried for a long time could have the powder get ground into dust raising the possibility of a detonation.

I always just loaded a few rounds to take straight to the range so I didn't worry about the powder getting turned to dust from being carried. I started using the Kynoch wads after reading that article. A couple of posts on this site have discussed the lower standard deviation and more consistent velocity by using the wads with RL15 to take up the air space and keeping the powder against the primer. There is no need for the wad/filler if using either IMR4831 or H4831 since they eliminate the air space in the case.

I have the "Handloader" article by Ross Seyfried (Reloading the Nitro Express". I will be glad to send anyone a copy.

Please contact me directly at rkmojo@aol.com

While RL-15 is great for old Nitro Express Cartridges, it only fill 70-76% of the case.
Be a position sensitive powder the wad keeps the powder in position against the primer and does provide very consistant velocities. I always use Federal 215s in my loads.

Ed and Rusty,

Excellent information.

Thanks.

crl

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:
Did I mention that you can get a "Bridge punch" and some foam and make 'em yourself? I do!

+1, me too.

Dave, get a hold of one Kynoch wad (I'll send you one) get a 9/16 punch (gives me the correct size of a #2 Kynoch wad) at a hardware store go to an upholster's shop and pick out the foam with the same density and start making your own. I use one inch foam and cut it in half thus you have two wads for full loads, plinking loads I use a full one inch wad.

Dirk:

Thanks for the help. No need to send me a wad. I think I will just order a 100 or so to get started and then use you suggested method for the rest. I also want to try some IMR 4831 to see if I notice a significant difference in recoil. If not, I may just stick with the IMR powder. Making your own wads is a really good idea though. The new .470 should be here next week.

In my 450 No2 I MUST use a filler with ANY powder.

I have good working loads with 480, and 500gr bullets with IMR 3031, IMR 4831, and RL 15.

I prefer RL 15. It has less pressure and less recoil.

For filler I have used Dacron, and 3 different densities of foam.

As long as the filler is compressed I can tell no difference in performance of the load.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
For filler I have used Dacron, and 3 different densities of foam.
As long as the filler is compressed I can tell no difference in performance of the load.

I've experienced the same when working up loads.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
I also want to try some IMR 4831 to see if I notice a significant difference in recoil.

Dave, you'll notice the difference in felt recoil and the decreased pressures the R-15 are a plus too. Have someone at the range with you to give you the loaded rounds not knowing which one's are the R-15 and the IMR 4831, you'll know immediately. Graham Wright in his book mentions that they noticed an objective difference in recoil while working up loads for the 500 N.E. between IMR 4350 (less felt recoil) and IMR 4831. I notice a decrease in recoil between the R-15 (less recoil) and IMR 4350 in my 500 loads.

Guys, I have never loaded a round with a filler before. Do you just put the powder in and then push the wad or dacron in with something like the eraser end of a pencil before you seat the bullet?

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Guys, I have never loaded a round with a filler before. Do you just put the powder in and then push the wad or dacron in with something like the eraser end of a pencil before you seat the bullet?

Dave, you got it. You don't have to bury the wad just push it in enough that when you seat the bullet it will actually push the wad some more thus NO AIR POCKET between wad and bullet.

Dave....as Dirk says...easy as it gets. Also, years back I had someone do just what he suggests.....hide the 2 different powders from you and then touch them off side by side. I assure you you will notice a difference.....which the chronograph reading the same velocity for both loadings!

What make of 470 did you get? Having been gone I probably missed your post.

PM if you have any ?? about the 470 loading...I've got some good data for 3 different powders....but you'll end up using RL 15 IMO.

Gary
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quote:

Originally posted by GarBy:

What make of 470 did you get? Having been gone I probably missed your post.

Gary
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Gary, I bought a (gulp)........


Blaser S2



Really, really nice piece of wood. I should have it next week.

Don't tell Mac!

Dave.....nothing wrong with the Blaser. As I hear it, they are one of the most accurate doubles out there. Just remember you have to cock it again once you reload....unlike that K-gun.

Best of luck with her.

Gary
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This is one of the most interesting posts in quite a long time. Thanks to all that contributed to my enlightenment and to Rusty for going out of his way to send me the article mentioned above.

Clark

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Guys, I have never loaded a round with a filler before. Do you just put the powder in and then push the wad or dacron in with something like the eraser end of a pencil before you seat the bullet?

Dave,

I got my first double this year. It is a K-gun in 470.
I used a damaged 470 case, cut it below the shoulder, and chamfered and deburred it. I have some 1" thick foam and punch it with my modified case.
It took a lot of convincing for me to push that first piece of foam in the case on top of the Reloder 15. It took even more convincing to pull the trigger the first time.
It actually worked like everybody said. Now it is just another step in the reloading process.