I know that this subject is a controversial one, with one group believing that high pressure rimless cartridges have no place in double rifles and the other side saying that this is hogwash and that the new guns (albeit old technology is suggested as still being applicable) made for this caliber are just fine. The 375 certainly is a versatile cartridge but is it appropriate in a double. There of course is the flanged or rimmed case which all will agree ( I think) is fine. I do have a 500NE but thought the 375 with all its available bullets would be a fun choice. I believe the issues primarily relate to high pressure damaging the firearm and extraction problems.
Based on all this I thought I might try a reduced factory load. I pulled a number of bullets out of the Federal factory ammo 300 grain) and found the amount of Reloder 15 powder to equal 66.5 grains. That produces 49,600 on the old CUP scale. The 375 H&H flanged produces, I am told or I read, 47,000 by CUP measurement. Not sure if that is significant or cause to worry but if so using lighter bullets and less or different powder CUP can be reduced to 41,500 with 78 grains of H4350 or 44,900 with the max load of 83 grains of that powder. I would think the logical conclusion would then be that using the 375 rimless cartridge should not be an issue and that extraction should not either in general terms. Just would be interested in a few ( not hostile) comments as to whether my logic follows and if not, why not. Thanks all.

PW, your logic is spot on. Potential problem is the non flanged cartridge issue which may bite you in the ass at the worst possible time. I personally would not take that chance if dangerous game is involved.

There have been a lot of doubles built for the 375 H&H belted magnum and they wouldn't keep building them if it was a problem. Yes a rimmed cartridge is a better design for the type of extraction in a double. I have a Chapuis 375 H&H belted double and it has never given any problems with extraction or ejection. As far as pressures go I wouldn't load as heavy as in a bolt gun but factory ballistics or those listed in most reloading manuals should be find for a 375 H&H double.
If you are looking for a really nice double 375 H&H I have mine for sale at a very good price.

Sam

I alos have a 375 H&H built by Chapuis. Cannot complain and it has always served me well. Shells eject cleanly, no fear of brass being stuck in the chamber.

Cheers,

Matt

IMO, sooner or later, they may let you down. How much is your ass worth?

I shall quote Craig Boddington in his original book "Safari Rifles". On page 163 Craig states "...However, rimless and belted cartridges are not double-rifle cartridges, period....They can fail-not often, but eventually-even from the best makers. A professional hunter friend of mine asked what I thought about a .458 double....He'd already decided; he got the .458...The very first time he had to stop a buffalo charge he fired both barrels, then broke the gun to reload. The ejectors slipped over the case heads, the classic failure with rimless or belted cases...The gun was shipped back to Europe for repair, and he tells me it's never done that again. It will sooner or later, I'll wager-most of them do...the big rim (flange, if you prefer) absolutely guarantees foolproof extraction and/or ejection each and every time."

I rest my case.

Power Wagon, welcome to AR. As Sam mentioned above, every major double rifle manufacturer offers the 375 H&H in a double. It is one of the most versatile, useful, and popular (ammo availability) calibers for African hunting. DoubleDons point about staking your life on a rimless cartridge in a double has merit, but I imagine most hunters would use a 375 for more varied game shots, not as their Dangerous Game stopping rifle. As a complement to your 500 NE, it would be great.

Personally, I'd buy one (*flanged preferred) but only if they made it on a 28ga frame like the 9.3x74r in a Merkel 141/161.

Therein lies my only complaint: the .375 H&H need not reside in a 10# heavyweight DR ala a 450/400 or 470 NE+.

Biebs,

Right on the money. Any dangerous game hunting with a double would be with a rimmed cartridge.

I could see hunting dangerous game with a bolt gun in 375 H&H.

Matt

For dangerous game a bigger caliber would be better and a rimmed cartridge. Your 500 is just right. The 375 double would be a great plains game double and they handle like a little 410 shotgun. One big advantage to a 375 double is every camp will have ammo for that caliber laying around. Now back in the day when a hunter was by himself and no PH to back him up a rimless cartridge might make you a little nervous but for the person wanting a smaller caliber double to hunt with while on a dangerous game hunt the 375 would be a handy little double. It would take care of most anything in a pinch. Your PH is there to back you up if things go bad. Also if you make the first shot count then you still have another barrel for backup. Take the 500 when you get in close to the big stuff.

Sam

A Mate of mine use to have a Chapuis 375H&H that had ejection problems.
No doubt this could have been fixed BUT would you feel comfortable chasing DG with it?
I bought 375 WR with the flanged case and am keen to get it over to Africa asap.

Notwithstanding all the 375 DRs that been built over the past 100 years, it does not belong in a Double rifle. IMO. For all the reasons above, plus it is too "mediium" for one. There are better, rimmed, rounds both above it and below it for more specific applications.
Considering and noticing your handle, you should immediately recognize and will have deciphered mine.
Welcome to AR.

At present, I'm "doubleless". I do have Butch making me a long-bar, round action in .450 N.E.... but the little VC .375 Flanged Ken had at Dallas was about the coolest little double I've ever seen. I certainly was tempted!

Maybe someone who know more about it will chime in. It was very pleasant to hold, was light enough to tote for hours and felt like my .410 quail gun.

If a .375 was in my future, I'd surely get that one reproduced... because it was super nice and I just would like a rim on a double with which I might shoot something that could eat me if I got a round hung up in the action.

quote:

Originally posted by JudgeG:
the little VC .375 Rimmed Ken had at Dallas was about the coolest little double I've ever seen. I certainly was tempted!

Maybe someone who know more about it will chime in. It was very pleasant to hold, was light enough to tote for hours and felt like my .410 quail gun.

If a .375 was in my future, I'd surely get that one reproduced... because it was super nice and I just would like a rim on a double with which I might shoot something that could eat me if I got a round hung up in the action.

I know exactly what your saying. This 375F Westley Richards is the nicest-handiest rifle I have ever used.
A real pleasure to tote.
Now to sort it out and get her ready for Safari..

Oz: That is one gorgeous rifle! congratulations sir!

Adam, that gun is SWEET!!!

Thanks everyone. Seems the pressure issue has disappeared. Maybe in time the extraction issue will too. Anyway will let you know my experience once the snow melts and I get to the range.

I own a Merkel 140 in .375 Belted, extractor gun. I've shot it and hunted with it a lot, and I've never had one single problem with it whatsoever. It weighs 10.5 lbs which makes it a little heavy for most of the hunting I do, but that weight also makes the recoil minimal. I can shoot it all day.

It also like almost any ammo, but seems to shoot factory Federal Trophy Bomded Bear Claws the best.

Extraction on a Merkel in a belted cartridge gets a little cumbersome, but with practice I've gotten quite good with it. I also like the fact that this caliber makes a much better longer range double rifle that say a .450/400 or most of the other rimmed cartridges.

I do agree that the .375 FL would be preferred, but we cannot convince Olaf Sauer and the folks in Germany to use the Fl instead of the belted. The Heym 88B at 8.5 lbs is one of the best handling .375's I have ever carried in the field. I believe Heym makes it in both FL or belted, but they are very expensive.

FWIW John Taylor had two doubles chambered for belted .375H&H Mag. and spoke highly of them...
I wouldn't mind having one neither...to be honest I'd rather have one than a Flanged version.

Butch is in the process of building me a 375 H&H Flanged. Can't wait!

One doesn’t have to worry about the modern double rifle that is built for any rimless cartridge in regard to PRESSURE! Any quality double rifle made by a reputable maker is strong enough to handle the pressure. The reason the makers build doubles in those chamberings is because some people will buy them, but you see less and less of them made today in dangerous game cartridges, because the serious DG hunter is getting educated and there are less requests for them.

The fact is there is a reason the flanged 375 exists, and that is to avoid the drawbacks of the belted rimless cartridge in a double rifle. The 375 H&H belted rimless cartridge was made for bolt action rifles, and in a CRF bolt rifle the 375H&H is one of the most reliable, and versatile cartridges ever invented.

The rimless or belted rimless cartridge in a break-top double rifle is not the best idea anyone ever had. As Boddington says it may not cause you a problem for quite a long time, but it will sooner or later. I predict that when that happens it will be at the most inopportune time, and it may happen the first time you need a fast re-load.
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Dang Mac, same thing I said yesterday.

What's the difference in a Ruger #1 or a Thompson Encore using a rimless cartridge. Don't hear too many complaints about them. Now don't think that I'm saying that there will never be a problem with a rimless cartridge ejecting but the odds are pretty slim if the gun is properly made. A dirty chamber in a rimmed caliber could have problems too. especially with the very thin rims of Nitro cartridges. Another reason the nitro cases are usually tapered more the bolt gun cartridges. The old 450-400 3 1/4 was known for extraction problems early in its life.
Yes a rimmed cartrdge is better for a break open gun but if someone wants a rimless cartridge double I don't think its a big deal.
I guess we are beating a dead horse!

Sam

Sam, agreed. And someone who is depending on the 375 H&H as his stopping rifle has much bigger issues to consider than extraction :-)

Biebs, I should have said that! You hit the nail on the head!

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
What's the difference in a Ruger #1 or a Thompson Encore using a rimless cartridge. Don't hear too many complaints about them. Now don't think that I'm saying that there will never be a problem with a rimless cartridge ejecting but the odds are pretty slim if the gun is properly made. A dirty chamber in a rimmed caliber could have problems too. especially with the very thin rims of Nitro cartridges. Another reason the nitro cases are usually tapered more the bolt gun cartridges. The old 450-400 3 1/4 was known for extraction problems early in its life.
Yes a rimmed cartrdge is better for a break open gun but if someone wants a rimless cartridge double I don't think its a big deal.
I guess we are beating a dead horse!

Sam

First off a Ruger No1 is not a double rifle, and not a break top rifle but a falling block. A completely different design. Actually the Ruger No1 is better suited to rimless cartridges than to the flanged cartridge.

The TC guns are single barreled break top pistols and rifles also a far different design than a big bore double rifle. The only double rifle that is well suited to rimless, or belted rimless cartridges is the falling block double rifle from Bradshaw.

One problem with rimless, and belted/rimless cartridges in a double rifle is the people who buy them. They tend to be new to double rifles and are used to rifles where they can hot-rod the loads to get MORE velocity. So they choose the cartridge that is made to be used in a single barreled rifle, so doesn’t have to conform to regulation. That type of rifle can use multiple bullet weight bullets, and at different speeds with only an adjustment of a scope or iron sight. They find very quickly this doesn’t work in a double rifle, so the guy who buys one will have a rifle that doesn’t shoot well.

You would be surprised to know the number of fine double rifles I have bought at bargain prices because the first owner bought it and tried to use his hand loads in it without understanding the regulation did not allow all loads to regulate. They sold to me simply because they thought they had bought a lemon. In one day at the bench and range I had it shooting to regulation. Even though the only double rifle I would buy that was chambered for a belted/rimless cartridge would be a 458 Win Mag, and it would be sent to JJ to be re-chambered to 450NE before I took it hunting.

The mechanical reasons for the needing of a flanged cartridge are:

#1 it gives very reliable extraction, and/or ejection!

And #2 it allows cartridges to be just simultaneous drop into the chambers on a fast re-load, (note the picture at the bottom of this post), without having to look at the chambers. You can’t do a drop & close with a belted/rimless cartridge.

The belted/rimless cartridges must be pushed into the cambers to snap over the spring loaded pawls to pop into the extractor groove. If the barrels are slammed shut with the cartridge having not engaged with the pawl in the groove, the pawl may be broken off, so that it will not eject the empty when the rifle is broken open for a reload. If that pawl breaks and falls between the barrel flats, and water table or behind the extractor shoe it will not let the rifle close on the new load. Either way you will be in deep sh~t with a buffalo, or lion coming in fast.

In a double rifle, the only reason any maker ever made a double chambered for a belted rimless high pressure cartridge like the 375H&H or the 458Win Mag was because the ammo makers started discontinuing the old NE flanged double rifle ammo. Then it was found that people still knew the value of double rifles for hunting dangerous game in Africa.

The makers not being able to get reliable traditional ammo were left with the only two cartridges that were easy for customers to get were the 375H&H, and the 458 Win Mag. Most of the new doubles were made for Americans most of which didn’t know much about double rifles and jumped at the idea. Most who want them today are most times just as misguided as those back in the late 50s and 60s but there are more folks today who understand double rifles and so there are not many made today.

On the used gun market today, any double chambered for one of those two cartridges in a rifle to be used for hunting dangerous game will be hard to sell without a discount, and even then may take quite a while to sell. JJ makes the 458Win Mag doubles into very nice dependable double rifles by re-chambering them to 450NE 3 ¼ inch.

Gentlemen nobody here is telling you not to buy a belted/rimless chambered double rifle if that is what you want. It’s your money and your butt, go for it.

All I’m saying here is know the draw-backs before you do. There are several people right here on AR and folks around the world who have a large amount of experience with double rifles who will tell you the same thing. If you choose to disregard the warning, you can’t blame the messenger who brought it to you.

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My last comment is just that, for me, the 375 was never planned to be used for dangerous game. That is why I have the 500 NE. The 375 (rimless) was acquired as a fun gun that I could use for both African plains game and North American game. It is a great cartridge and if and I say if I " might"have an extraction problem some day, I can live with that. Thanks for all the feedback.

Oh and I think I did not mention that the rifle has factory mounted claw scope mounts if one is so inclined notwithstanding that many double gun owners are aghast at the thought. Quick on and quick off should it be appropriate for the longer shots. Cheers.

PW, that's great that the rifle has scope mounts. The 375 H&H has much better long-range capabilities than most other DR calibers....you know, the rimmed ones :-)

I know that I said that I was finished but thought the gang might be interested in knowing that I also have a 20's or 30's I Hollis & Sons double in 450/400 which shoots like a dream. Really did not need the 500 but as many of you know, it is a sickness.

You know, MacD37 made some great points in his post, and I would have to say that in any caliber other than .375 would I ever consider a rimless cartridge. Never would I consider a .458 WM as a dangerous game gun.

However, a .375 is so much more versatile, and as you Power Wagon, my Merkel .375 Belted also has a quick detach scope system which makes it very handy for NA hunting. In fact,I shot a whitetail this past season with it using the scope. It is very accurate with that scope by the way.

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
Sam, agreed. And someone who is depending on the 375 H&H as his stopping rifle has much bigger issues to consider than extraction :-)

When those cases don't come out after shooting a member of the DG group then that statement will likely be worth JACK.

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
And someone who is depending on the 375 H&H as his stopping rifle has much bigger issues to consider than extraction :-)

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:
When those cases don't come out after shooting a member of the DG group (with rimless cases) then that statement will likely be worth JACK.

Please heed these two warnings, and also Mac's advice; they know what they are talking about. Your LIFE may depend on it! BW

quote:

Originally posted by Power wagon:
My last comment is just that, for me, the 375 was never planned to be used for dangerous game. That is why I have the 500 NE.<< snip

The above is fine for your purposes, but make no mistake that the 375 is not a stopping cartridge for at least two members of the big five, and is perfect for the Two of the big seven. Can't be beat for Leopard, Lion, Hippo or Croc. In a pinch works very well on buffalo and elephant as well, because the only STOPPING SHOT in a close charge of a buffalo or ele the only shot is a brain shot! A shot that is easier to make with a rifle that has lass recoil.

quote:

By Powerwagon

Snip>>It is a great cartridge and if and I say if I " might"have an extraction problem some day, I can live with that. Thanks for all the feedback.

P.W. A double rifle chambered for the 375FL magnum is one of the best African Lion rifles ever invented. With a quick detach scope it ie perfect for a back up rifle to your 500NE, in case you get a shot where a percise placement though a hole in the bush to the vitals, where twigs can't be seen with the naked eye. Or hunting plains game in Dangerous game country. However if you find yourself faced by a lion in heavy bush, the 375H&H remless in the double is as good as anything you could choose, and in that case you will not have time to fire both shots and re-load anyway so you will live or die with those two shots, but if you run onto a griz, in the USA or buffalo in Africa two shots are rarely enough, without a very quick re-load. In that case the belted rimless 375 H&H may be a real draw-back.

In any event any double is better than a bolt in a tight spot!
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quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:

quote:

Originally posted by JudgeG:
the little VC .375 Rimmed Ken had at Dallas was about the coolest little double I've ever seen. I certainly was tempted!

Maybe someone who know more about it will chime in. It was very pleasant to hold, was light enough to tote for hours and felt like my .410 quail gun.



If a .375 was in my future, I'd surely get that one reproduced... because it was super nice and I just would like a rim on a double with which I might shoot something that could eat me if I got a round hung up in the action.

I know exactly what your saying. This 375F Westley Richards is the nicest-handiest rifle I have ever used.
A real pleasure to tote.
Now to sort it out and get her ready for Safari..

ozhunter; that is a beauty man,very lovely, make sure to put it to good use.



Best regards

Malek
Good shooting/hunting and God's best.

MacD37 I was just reading your responses on this thread and got to thinking that I learn something EVERY single time that I read one of your posts. They are always clear and straight to the (well reasoned) point whilst staying above the fray that so frequently pollutes some posts. So, thank you for sharing your knowledge and insight with all of us. I hope that years from now I too will be able to share my "wisdom" with the next generation. JCS

JCS271, thank you for the flowers!

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quote:

Originally posted by JCS271:
MacD37 ... thank you for sharing your knowledge and insight with all of us.

+1

I had a Heym 88B in 375 H&H Belted and never had to push cartridges into chambers to load,just dropped them in as I did with my Merkel 470NE. The Heym had a switch on the forearm iron that activated either extract or eject and ejection was perfect.Most here would not like it as it had - horror of horrors- a beavertail forearm. Have really regretted selling it. Never had a single problem with my Winchester O/U in 30-06 or any of my Valmets in everything from 243 to 9.3. Shot lots of rounds in the Valmets. In fact the only extraction failure I ever had on a double rifle in over 50 years of shooting them was with a Chapius 9.3x74r. Stuck round pulled the rim off. Had to use a rod to punch out. Extractor actually pulled section of rim out. Have actually had more rimless than rimmed over the years. Couldn't afford the rimmed types and was kinda stuck with Valmets which I like very well.

If you decide to go with a 375 Flanged, there are some nice ones at reasonable prices