I am currently shooting a load in my double that yields the following results at the range. The barrels are not crossing, the left barrel is impacting on the left and the right barrel is impacting on the right (at 50 yards). The right and left barrel shots are pretty close on the horizonal axis (x-axis), about an inch apart, but the left barrel is hitting almost two inches higher than the right barrel on the vertical axis (y-axis). Is this an issue that I can address through my load, e.g., does it suggest that the load is too slow, too fast, other? Or is this something that really relates to how the barrels are set up?

Is this a brand new gun or a used gun? What is the caliber? What is the load? How where you shooting it? Bench, standing bench, offhand? How were you supporting it during firing?

BB

New rifle and I was firing the rifle from the bench with my elbows on the bench. It was a solid rest. Rifle shot the same with both open sights and a scope attached.

Caliber was .500/.416 and the load was 103 grains of H-1000 behind a 500 grain Woodleigh SP.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Caliber was .500/.416 and the load was 103 grains of H-1000 behind a 500 grain Woodleigh SP.

1) What's the bullet weight again? (you stated 500)

2) Who made the gun?

3) Do you have a chrono?

4) What was it regulated with?

5) Do you have any of the ammo it was regulated with?

6) Have you chronod the regulation ammo?

7) How did it shoot with regulation ammo?

Let's start with that info. It will help determine where you are in the process and what information you have avail for duplicating regulation loads.

1. My mistake, 410 grain
2. Blaser
3. No
4. WR
5. No
6. No
7. Unknown

Then I'd start by getting some WR (Wolfgang Romey? FYI - Westley Richards ammo is loaded by Wolfgang Romey... should be the same stuff) ammo and a chronograph.

You need to know the accuracy potential of the gun (how well it was regulated) and the velocity of those loads used for regulating.

With those two pieces of information you've got 1) a benchmark for accuracy potential (could be improved upon but you need to know what you're working with) and 2) the velocity target your aiming for in duplicating the regulation load/accuracy.

I don't know if the blaser in this caliber has the regulation screw? or is that only on the smaller calibers? Either way, I have no exprience with them.

Without that information, (velocity in particuar) IMO - you're really flying blind to duplicate a regulation load.

With that information (and the chronograph) you've got a good chance at duplicating factory accuracy... then tuning the laod to improve upon that.

The Blaser doubles need to be regulated by the user. According to the Sig/Blaser folks in Exeter, New Hampshire, the U.S. expert on regulating the Blaser doubles is their dealer Heritage Arms (www.heritagearms.net).

I would agree with everything "new guy" said and encourage you to get a chronograph if you are going to be working up new loads for your double rifle. You really do need to know the speed of those bullets as you increase and decrease their velocity to the point that your bullets can best converge at 50 yards.

mike

I have the same DR Blaser S2 in 500/416

I made some first loads with 400grn Hornady SN using 98grn of Norma MRP.

With this my rifles prints the oposite of yours:
Left barrel 2 inches down; right barrel 2 inches up on the same vertikal line.

I guess you need to increase speed and mine needs to be reduced.
I'm guessing that with the setup of the Blaser double barrels the left barrel is reacting more like a single shot going up with lower and down with higher speeds but almost on the same vertikal line not crossing so much.

Just started to load it up - so I will find out later....

Franz

Franz,

Let's continue to exchange results to see what we come up. I was shooting 103 grains of H-1000, Bell case, Federal 215 primer and 410 grain Woodleigh SPs.

I am going to try 95 grains of IMR4350, with 400 Woodleigh SPs based on some information from another source to see how that does this weekend.

I tried the 410 Wolfgang Romey rounds and they shot terrible.

Also, are you shooting the left barrel first, or are you left handed? Are you shooting the barrels in the same sequence consistantly? Are the bores fouled or clean. Loads can and will help regulation within reason, so good luck.

Mike:

Some years ago, I worked up a .500/.416 load for a friend's K-gun. I shot and chronographed several batches of Krieghoff factory ammo (Wolfgang Romey) to try to establish a benchmark. It was terrible. Don't waste your money.

Krieghoff's recommended load at that time was 109 grains H1000, Woodleigh 410 grain, and Federal 215 primers. The final load for that rifle was 107.5 grains H1000 with the Woodleigh, which shot very well. Velocity was 2270 fps. Increasing from there produced vertical stringing.

Krieghoff claims 2330 fps from 25.5" barrels with the 410 grain bullet. The K gun had 23.5" barrels. None of the factory ammo came up to 2300 fps.

I would suggest that you discontinue shooting handloads entirely until you obtain a chronograph. Load development in a double without one is a very bad idea.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Is your comment about the chrono suggesting that load development without a chrono is dangerous, a waste of time or both? Seems like even without a chrono if you start at a safe level and slowly build seeing if the groups start to close up, you should be okay. The load I was using (103 grains of H1000 with a 400 grain bullet) is the load listed in the Barnes manual. I was just trying to see whether my pattern indicated that I needed to increase or decrease the load. That said, I can sure see how the chrono would help.

Mike,

It's not so much about dangerous levels and pressure signs, rather FPS. I know this is rehashing stuff, but the ammo the rifle was regulated for will generate so many FPS out of your rifle. Shooting that ammo over a chronograph will give you a sound basis for developing your own loads without so much hit and miss.

When I shoot my double I always try to shoot it over a chorograph.

I'll be glad to loan you my Chrony.

I understand and intend to buy a chrono - another toy to play with. My problem with regulation ammo is that I have tried that and it shoots so poorly I have to presume that the loading has changed. I have no desire to replicate the regulation ammo. As someone else noted, the WR ammo is pretty much crap as best I can tell.

I figured the comment was more about the waste of time element of trial and error. What made me ask the question in the first place was the chart in Graeme Wright's book (page 90) that shows how impact point for the left and right barrel can indicate whether the bullet is moving too slow or too fast. I was just trying to see if there was something that could be discerned from the vertical stringing with the left barrel.

All that said, I intend to get a chrono and use it for load development, not just to cut back on the trial and error aspect but to make sure that I am not pushing the envelop either.

Thanks for the offer of the loan. Jeffe made a similar offer. Much appreciated.

Mike

Mike:

The answer is both. With a DR that is new to you, you can't rely on the relationship between the individual barrel groups to tell you where you are. Also, there is too much lot to lot density variance with cannister propellants to rely entirely on loading manuals, nor can you rely on conventional pressure signs in a double. Your loads can be over the top and you won't know it.

I've recently done some shooting with two similar DRs of the same caliber. With standard weight bullets at standard velocity both rifles shoot wide - very wide. This ususally indiciates too low velocity, but if I ran the velocity up enough to get the barrels together, there is no doubt in my mind that the rifles would be damaged. They need to be re-regulated.

Without the chrono, you're blind. You're wasting time and running the risk of damaging the rifle. It isn't worth it. You can buy a chrono that works for $100.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."
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quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
...Graeme Wright's book (page 90) that shows how impact point for the left and right barrel can indicate whether the bullet is moving too slow or too fast. Mike

Mike, that's really more of a theoritical "rule of thumb" for DRs.

Not ALL doubles behave "By the Book."

MJines, before messing with the load try shooting the rifles again from A STANDING POSITION, preferably with some sort of support for your self if you're shaky. Sounds as though your issues with the left barrel may simply be due to un-natural recoil in your bench supported shooting position. Maybe not, but its the old rule of starting with the simplist possible solution! These things weren't made for bench rest shooting and some of em react porly to it... not to mention hammering the crap out of you.

Mike, in my 500/416 K gun, my loads are as follows:
112 grs. H1000 GS Custom 380 gr. FN's (2422 and 2452 FPS)
110grs. H1000 Hornady 400gr.SP's (2318 and 2356)
These results from the range today! These loads were developed from data provided by Kreighoff and other sources on this forum.
Peter.

How did they group? I tried 93 grains and then 95 grains of H4350 today. The groups closed up going from the 93 grain load to the 95 grain load but still about almost three inches. My inclination would be to try 96 and see what happens, but the other comments have got me thinking I may need to wait until I get a chrony before I step it up.

These are my "final", take to Africa loads, except that I would not use the Hornadys but rather the Woodleigh SP's, for which I have a separate load. 2 inches at 50 yards, centered at the POI. I have not attempted to improve on these. Not worth it IMHO. These same loads also shoot well with a scope on the rifle.
Peter.

Mike,
103gr of h1000 is (quickload) 2080.. which explains why it's wide.. and both should be right (assuming right twist) of point of aim

96 gr od h4350 says 2235...

so even if it's WRONG it's still 150 fps closer, so teh groups should be smaller

quickload suggestions reloader 25, north of 105 grs

jeffe

Oh Great Mystic of Porter, what say is Quickload?

My inclination would be to try to 96 and 97 grains of 4350 (I am using IMR not H) and see if the groups continue to close up. I see no signs of any pressure issues at 95 grains, cases fall out of the chamber, primers are not flattened, etc.

What has your experience been with Quickload in terms of it accurately predicting ballpark loads? It is like an 8-ball that you can shake and get advice on life too, I might need to buy one?

Bottom line, we just need to go to range and haul the chronograph. Besides with both of us shooting I will get less of a headache!

I am real pleased with my .470 NE load. With 108 grains of H4831SC behind a 500 grain Woodleigh I am getting groups just over an inch centered on the target. Tough to complain about that, but the velocity is still a mystery.

Mike

Mike,
I'll be at the range thursday and friday (early).. then mike and I are going hunting...

probably dirt range in porter

jeffe

I am working all week so we will have to pick another time. What is Quickload and how dependable are the results?

Okay gents, I have purchased a chronograph, now what? I presume that what I am watching for is (1) velocities that parallel the standard velocities for the cartridges I am reloading (2100 fps for the .470NE and 2400 fps for the .500/.416), avoiding loads that produce higher velocities since they may equate to higher pressure, and (2) consistency among shots in terms of velocity to indicate that the load is not doing strange things that might similarly indicate pressure spikes, etc.

Is that a fair characterization of what I want to look for? Thanks!

Mike

Mike:

Glad to hear the H-4831sc loads worked well in your Heym 470NE.

As far as the use of the chronograph goes..not sure which one you purchased...some have more options than others...but basic models giving you velocity provide for "peace of mind" when working up loads and when changing components.

You have noted the primary benefits. Also, will be helpful in noting changes, in velocity/pressure, due to changes in tempeture and other variable when adjusting loads/components...

You will see a difference with 25+/-degree temp. changes...I have seen some significant differences with 50+/-degree temp. differences....

Mike:

That depends on what you want. If you want standard pressure, which is always my goal in a double, then no, the velocities you gave are both too high.

Krieghoff's standards for the .500/.416 are a 410 grain Woodleigh at 2330 fps from a 25.5" pressure barrel for 44,962 PSI. Most of the rifles seem to be 23.5". I don't know what length the Blaser is. When I chronographed Krieghoff factory ammo in a Krieghoff rifle with 23.5" barrels, it averaged below 2300 fps as expected. In a double rifle that belonged to me, I would consider a .500/.416 handload that averaged 2400 fps in 23.5" barrels with 410 grain bullets to be a stiff overload.

Likewise the .470. Standards for it are 2125 fps in a 31" pressure barrel for 14 tons bolt thrust. I assume your Heym barrels are 23.5 or 24". From those "coach gun" barrels, 2100 fps is too fast. The idea is to keep the pressure as low as you can get it while obtaining standard velocity (as adjusted for barrel length), not to get the velocity as high as you can get it.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

In "coach gun" 470NEs that standard, 2125fps, would make the Federal Factory loads an "over pressure" loading... according to my chronograph. Would also make most published loading data, of today, "over pressure" loads.....

Most of the newly manufactured 470s are regulated with Federal Factory ammo....even for the coach guns...

Jim:

Not sure what you're saying. Late Federal doesn't run 2100 in 24" barrels. The earlier stuff was too hot.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Hello Mark:

How are you doing?

What I was attempting to "say"...

The Federal stuff in short barreled DRs, at least mine, chronographs nominal 2150fps (TBS) and 2100+fps (Woodliegh Softs). Adjusting for barrel length differences the Federal loads may well be over the 2125fps historical standard....best I can tell.

400 NE,

Made a trip to the range today -- this time armed with a chrono. You were correct, in the Blaser (which has a 24 inch barrel), the WR ammo clocks at an average of 2258 fps (six rounds). I also shot some loads (four rounds) with 105 grains of RL25, they averaged 2305 fps. That seemed a bit steep to me and the left and right barrel were also crossing so I switched over to some rounds loaded with 97 grains of H4831SC. Those clocked at an average of 2245 and were grouping nicely (only had four rounds, however, and one was a flyer). For the next trip to the range, I am going to stick with the H4831SC and try a grain less and a grain more than 97 grains.

It is a tremendous help having a chrono. It makes you feel a whole lot better not guessing what the round may be doing. Only problem I had with the chrono (Chrony Beta Master) was that I was getting some "Err2" codes, indicating that the second eye was not picking up the round. I think that is function of shooting a double where the sights are centered but the barrels are off to the left and right -- just a guess. Perhaps I need to set the chrono further from the bench (had it set up about 10 feet from the muzzle today).

Thanks to everyone for their input.

Mike