I would say Merkel.

But that is only because a screaming deal came my way, I had the cash in hand, and a willingness to spend it.

I could just have easily been a Chapius or VC.

It could not have been a Heym because a screaming good deal would still been more than I wanted to spend. An affordable (for me) Heym would have to be stolen!

Seriously, no one here actually intended to address the question of "best value for the money" as it is defined and used in business. We all just put down what we liked best, full of emotions and subjective ideas. A true cost benefit analysis would not include any of those; "just the facts, Ma"am" as Sgt Friday used to say. No need to thrash this any more, for me at least. I was going to do a full staff study for you on it, but it would be a waste of time.

I figure the best gun for the money is what you can afford and what can get the job done, whether it is dangerous game or a white deer on the back forty, depending on the gun owners needs. This is the difference between a collector and a hunter. A collector may want a sidelock with all the fancy engraving but is it going to shoot any better than a plain boxlock? I usually don't comment on any forum that I belong to and I enjoy reading the double rifle portion of accurate reloading. I have learned alot from specific contributers. However, I have also learned there are a bunch of pompus peckerwoods on this site as well. It is matter of winnowing the wheat from the chaff. I don't mean to hurt anybody's feelings but that is how it looks from an independent observer.

Greg Harris
Wildlife Depredation Biologist
Iowa DNR

Gentlemen,

By the way, if you think I am talking without any double rifle experience the latest field grade rifle from Butch Searcy is mine and another is on the way. If you cry about Butch's field guns you ought to either take a crap or get off the pot. By the way this is the 20th of August.

See ya,

Greg

Hey dpcd:

What do you mean when you say the Merkel appears a bit crude?

Regards,

Carpediem

I recall the engraving was rather simply and not smoothly done. That was 20 years ago.

quote:

there are a bunch of pompus peckerwoods on this site as well.

Ouch! Is peckerwood kind of like English Walnut?
Peter.

quote:

Originally posted by chl:
I usually don't comment on any forum that I belong to

Probably because once you express an opinion, some people will call you a peckerwood!

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by chl:
I usually don't comment on any forum that I belong to

Probably because once you express an opinion, some people will call you a peckerwood!

Todd That isn't bad, but now if you were called a POMPUS Peckerwood, well now that would be real hurtful, and maybe make you quit posting all together!

I wonder why the Zoli 450/400 was not listed as it runs under $10,000 and is both rugged and reliable?

When I started this thread, I had no idea it would engender such emotional responses. Peckerwood? What's up with that?

Of course, we all have our personal bias with respect to one gun or another but for me, the Chapuis, Krieghoff, Merkel, and the field grade Searcy are good guns for the money. If you want a buy, contact Dale Nygaard at Heirloom Arms and talk to him about a .375 Chapuis. I just bought a .375 flanged Jungle model and I thought it was a great bargain. Incredible wood. Engraved lion on bottom of the action. Sideplates with buffalo on one side and elephant on the other. One standing and three folding rear sights. Flip up night sight and it handles and shoots like a dream. Stock built to my specs and only 120 days from order to delivery. It is the nicest double that I own. The Heym is a great gun but a new one is just a bit out of my price range.

I didn't pick the Zoli. I just don't have any familarity with that brand. If that's your pick, so be it.

Sabatti's are a different kettle of fish. I was a naysayer at first. However, now that I have handled and shot one, I have changed my opinion. If you can find one with a good muzzle that shoots well, heck they are just fine. I don't want to buy one myself because I want a gun that has been regulated in the traditional fashion and what can I say, I am a sucker for a gun with really nice wood but that's just me. I think Cabella's has done something good. I know how this works. Doubles are a disease. Guys that buy a Sabatti now will shoot it for awhile and then decide they want something a little nicer and they will start looking at a Searcy, Merkel, Chapuis or a K-gun. Then, they will be dreaming about a Heym. The more guys that we get shooting doubles, the better off we will be. I've got four doubles and I am already thinking about another

God bless ya Dave. That's all us blue collar shooters are saying. We want,if possible, an easy on the wallet invitation to DR shooting.
Many here are friends and shooting buddies I suspect. I,for one, came here first after learning of the Sabatti's and am grateful
to all here that I did. You folks are a wealth of information, we know you appreciate and can afford the finest guns out there. Some of us can't, but draw on your knowledge to help us make our decisions, many thanks.

Lilguy:

The more guys we have shooting doubles the better off we will all be. Good luck with your gun.

Remember, these things are a disease. You're going to want another.

Hey Guy's,

I don't reckon I respond much to e-mails or the reaction to one since I have no axe to grind; it is only if it smells like a pig, it looks like a pig, snd especially, if smells like a pig, it probably is a pig. Sorry if this offends some but I reckon if you are looking into a mirror it may hurt some. If this doesn't bother you then take no offense! If it does, then you need to take a closer look at your self!

See ya,

Greg

quote:

Originally posted by chl:

I usually don't comment on any forum that I belong to

Greg Harris
Wildlife Depredation Biologist
Iowa DNR

Greg:

I think that is a really good idea. Let's go back to that.

By the way, here is the definition of "peckerwood":

"Peckerwood (or simply wood) is a slur used through the mid 20th century by southern African Americans and upper class whites to describe poor rural whites. It is roughly synonymous with "cracker," "redneck" and "White trash," more prevalent in the southeast, although the last implies a degree of moral turpitude.
Blacks saw blackbirds as a symbol of themselves, and the redheaded woodpecker as a representation of working class whites. They considered them loud and troublesome like the bird, and sometimes with red hair like the woodpecker's head plumes. This word is still widely used by southern blacks to refer to southern whites."

So basically, on your 5th post and without getting to know anybody, you start calling us "white trash". My, aren't you off to a good start.

"See ya".

The basic Bailey Bradshaw seems to offer much for dollars spent:
http://bradshawgunandrifle.com..._Double_Rifle_1B.php

From his web site: "Base price for rifles up to 9.3X74R is $9500. Big bore rifles are priced at $10500 and feature extended top tangs..."

What do the tracks of a peckerwood look like and is the pompus peckerwood a sub-species of the peckerwood? Expiring minds want to know .

The engraving is as you say, rather crude. I thought you were making reference to the machining. My error.

Regards,

Carpediem

OMG:
You mean to say we also have the elusive blue collar peckerwood to watch for?

Has anyone seen a white collar peckerwood? Or is the white collar actually the pompus peckerwood of previous note?

Wher can I find me one so's I kin shoot it an mount it on ma trofy wall of ma huntin cabin? LMFAO

Regards,

Carpediem, just a regular peckerwood of no distinction.

Well I suppose I'm the one to be looking in the mirror since the term perkerwood can be used to mean Red Neck. Coming from East Texas I would certainly qualify. Of course, I was born in Lousiana so I could also be referred to as a Coon Ass. Maybe a cross between the two ... A Red Ass!!

Oh, I thought the cross was PeckerAss! Sorry for my mistake Todd! LOL!

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Okay, this is the question. What is the best double for you money??

Here's what I say:

1. Chapuis
2. Krieghoff
3. Merkel
4. Verney-Carron
5. Heym

I would have listed the field grade Searcy as 2nd but the field grade has been discontinued and the Searcy doubles can no longer be considered a "value". If you have a Searcy field grade, you have a great rifle for the money. For the money It's really hard the beat the Chapuis or a K-gun.

Now remember, this is not about what you think is the best rifle but what you think is the best value for your money.

Of this list I would choose the VC and Heym due to a lack of cocker/decocker, quality/craftsmanship, and fit/finish. Quite honestly at Heym prices you are into a really nice .350, .360, .366, 9.3mm, .375 English double, a reasonable BLNE .450/400 English double, or a baseline .450-.475 English double. It's all taste with no right or wrong.

Brett

PS. With regard to taste.....That said it's pretty piss poor when a "gun maker" can't provide customers a reliable defect free product with any certainty. The above guns not included.

Our new friend from the Iowa DNR has gotten me to thinking. Can a feller become a member of the Pompous Peckerwood chapter of the DRSS if he is on a Sabatti budget?
I'm asking, because I have not yet seen the criteria required of a full-fledged PP member. I own a foreign service helmet. Does that qualify me for a PP pin? Or do I have to wear a fez and sit in a wing-backed chair at the Owl's Club, like dear old Major Hoople and say stuff like "Egad!" and "Fap"? I also much prefer a martini to Scotch. Is this a disqualifier?

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
Our new friend from the Iowa DNR has gotten me to thinking. Can a feller become a member of the Pompous Peckerwood chapter of the DRSS if he is on a Sabatti budget?
I'm asking, because I have not yet seen the criteria required of a full-fledged PP member. I own a foreign service helmet. Does that qualify me for a PP pin? Or do I have to wear a fez and sit in a wing-backed chair at the Owl's Club, like dear old Major Hoople and say stuff like "Egad!" and "Fap"? I also much prefer a martini to Scotch. Is this a disqualifier?

Not disqualified at all Bill. Hell, we can sit out by the cement pond, wearing pith helmets, drinking dirty martini's any ole time and just call it an official Pompous Peckerwood Board of Directors meeting!

Not sure about that UEG feller though! That PeckerAss comment is something I've always stayed away from!!

quote:

I also much prefer a martini to Scotch. Is this a disqualifier?

Definitely! The scotch as well. Single malt is the ONLY option.
Peter.

For me it is my Merkel 141E in 9.3x74R. I had wanted a double rifle for as long as I can remember. I read everything I could get my hands on about double rifles (to include all the posts on AR), asked a bunch of questions and haunted fine gun stores all over the US so I could handle different options. For my first double rifle, I wanted a caliber I could use for most big game that I planned to hunt. I liked the idea of being able to adjust regulation myself. Of course dependability, accuracy and reputation were big factors. The Merkel was everything I was looking for at a good, comparative price.

Alright, chl has messed up, as we all have here on AR a few times. I certainly have when responding to folks who prefer to shoot deer with a .22 caliber rifle; but I've learned my lesson that I will be scolded and spit upon and brandished as a non-enlightened individual who has never shot a deer with a .22 caliber rifle (nor will I ever) so how should I state my opinion otherwise.

I have decided to use this forum as a means to learn and gain friendships, not to argue all our differences or preferences. I have come to know alot of good folks through this forum, and I doubt I would ever have a real argument with anyone if it were not for the safety of the internet.

I wish I had the confidence in the product to buy a Sabbatti, but I don't at this point. However, I am happy for those individuals who have found those guns that shoot well for them and they are happy with them. I would love to have one in .450NE at 9.5 lbs. That sounds so good to me at $5000 for an extractor rifle.

I would suggest chl start all over; go and change his title and get re-involved in an effort to gain valuable knowledge from all the decades and lifetimes of experiences the good folks on here share.

I have learned from so many here; and hopefully I have shared some valuable info with others.

Oh no, this is too hilarious to give up just yet. I am one of those peckerwoods on a night shift and I look forward to getting to my desk to open up this page so I can get a real good laugh. Came close to blowing coffee through my beak all over the computer screen tonight.

I think we should have a seperate forum for peckerwoods who own double rifles. We can have seperate clasdsifications, such as: pompus peckerwood, peckerwood, red neck peckerwood, pecker ass, red neck pecker ass, and so on and so forth. And we can discuss the merits and pitfalls of various double rifles and look down our pecker beaks at those bolt trash peckerwoods.... wait a minute.....



Regards,

Carpediem Just another peckerwood

Just for the record Carp, I am blue collar and proud of it.
I also did not call anyone a name.You seem a bit confused
on that point.

Carpe, I sense that a pompous peckerwood and variant DRSS chapter thread is close at hand ... There will be a subdivision of the downtrodden who hate Scotch, love martinis, and can only afford cheap Italian doubles regulated with ball pein hammers and round-head machine screws dipped in valve compound and chucked in hand drills.
We will be Boston Red Sox fans. We will triumph!

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Okay, this is the question. What is the best double for you money??

Here's what I say:

1. Chapuis
2. Krieghoff
3. Merkel
4. Verney-Carron
5. Heym

I would have listed the field grade Searcy as 2nd but the field grade has been discontinued and the Searcy doubles can no longer be considered a "value". If you have a Searcy field grade, you have a great rifle for the money. For the money It's really hard the beat the Chapuis or a K-gun.

Now remember, this is not about what you think is the best rifle but what you think is the best value for your money.

Of this list I would choose the VC and Heym due to a lack of cocker/decocker, quality/craftsmanship, and fit/finish. Quite honestly at Heym prices you are into a really nice .350, .360, .366, 9.3mm, .375 English double, a reasonable BLNE .450/400 English double, or a baseline .450-.475 English double. It's all taste with no right or wrong.

Brett

PS. With regard to taste.....That said it's pretty piss poor when a "gun maker" can't provide customers a reliable defect free product with any certainty. The above guns not included.

Your post prompted me to look up the price of a new Heym. In 450NE their website has them listed at $17,000 - $23,000 I suspect based on "finish"

I think Brett's premise has merit.

I paid $23,000 for my 1902 Webley made fully engraved Army & Navy. It is fully functional (extractor not ejector to be fair to Heym in the comparison), accurate, and fully engraved.

I could be wrong but I suspect it will be worth more than the $23,000 I paid in another 10 years. Will the Heym?

The thread title asked for the best double for the money. I think a vintage wins hands down because of future value as well as function and.....they are fun just to look at and imagine some old timer with hand files, no machinery, under a gas lamp making that double with a dolls head so tight you couldn't put a piece of paper in.

Cheers
Jim

BTW, for the record, I like both Scotch and Martinis.

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:
The thread title asked for the best double for the money. I think a vintage wins hands down because of future value as well as function and.....they are fun just to look at and imagine some old timer with hand files, no machinery, under a gas lamp making that double with a dolls head so tight you couldn't put a piece of paper in.

That is of course assuming that one can afford an English double, Heym, or VC.

Brett

I think the question here every one asks sooner or later when he wants to get a DR and who has still to work for the money.

In the case you just have or got the money then for sure a English (H+H or Purdey etc.) is what came first and second and Italian Custom gun with state of art engraving.

For most that is out of reach, so first question is how much I want max pay. And then looking for the gun that fits into my budget and the features which I must have or only would like to have and finally the Caliber (smale/medium up to 9,3mm or for African game over 9,5mm) The over 9,5mm usually adds min 2000 to the bill at least.

Below 10'000 I would say
1. Krieghoff
2. Blaser
3. Heym
4. Itallian (low budget)
5. Merkel (140 series)
All in the view that a ejector is not needed

Below 20'000
1. Merkel (160 Serie)
2. Heym

last Italian with ejector
All in the view a ejector is needed

In the case someone says, ok I need more showcase then function only, everything it turning around the engraving what means Italy agins a few rankings in the list, because I just much more like the Italian engraving styl over the German.

I wanted to have a side lock ejector so in the lower price field was only Merkel and Heym. At the end I bought the Merkel, it was 5000 less for the same. When some one is looking for a boxlock ejector the Heym is on top of the list.

So at the end every one must evaluate that out, with in his budget and needs against must or would like to have feathures.

Hey lilguy:

No offence intended. Just having a real good tongue-in-cheek laugh at the expense of poor old chl. And knowing chl is such a stand-up kind of guy with broad shoulders, I am sure he can take it. Look forward to hearing more from chl.

And my sincere appologies to you Dave for hi-jacking your thread.

The original question being "What is the best value for your money', is subjective in that we all have different amounts of money to play with. bunoushcu has it right when he classes value at a set rate, 10k, 20k and so on.

I am on a very tight budget and when my first double came up for sale, it was a very lightly used Antonio Zoli in 9.3 for $5600.00 Canadian. Compared to the Merkel at $10,000.00 plus, this was the best value for my money.

A year later I found a brand new Merkel 141E in 9.3 for $5500.00 Canadian,(anyone want to buy a very lightly used Antonio Zoli side by side double?). That was even better value. Now I want a custom 450-400 and the best value for my limited budget is going to be one of Bailey Bradshaw's doubles, right after I buy my wife a new car,(see cars trucks and atvs this forum).

For the doctors, lawyers and indian chiefs, value for dollar is in a different tax bracket from a poor blue collar peckerwood such as myself. Sorry, I couldn't resist one more.

As always, Kind Regards,

Carpediem

Gentlemen of fragile dispositions,

I'm sure glad I didn't, and mind the word didn't, use the term loser loggerhead.

Good Hunting to All,

Greg

quote:

Originally posted by chl:
Gentlemen of fragile dispositions,

Heh, Heh, Heh, ... anything but, I do believe!!

Gentlemen,

P.S. I sure didn't mean to hurt anybody's feelings.

See ya,

Greg

P.S.S. I'm an educated man, however, I like to write in the vernacular in which I talk which you could say is Ozarkian of Missoura. I like to maintain roots to my heritage. I first heard the word "peckorwood" from my paternal grandpa when he would address friends and foes alike with that moniker. When Dave copied that Wikipedia diffention of the word I had never heard that in that type of conotation. Good thing he didn't go all the way to the bottom of the definitions. There were no racist remarks or intentions at all when I made that statement. That is just to say that is the way I like to talk and write. I don't mean to stir any one up but I still hold the the adjective of "pompus". Anyway, I surrender and am waving the white flag with the caveat that my opinions remain the same. I won't bother you no more!

See ya again,

Greg

quote:

Originally posted by chl:
Gentlemen,

P.S. I sure didn't mean to hurt anybody's feelings.

See ya,

Greg

P.S.S. I'm an educated man, however, I like to write in the vernacular in which I talk which you could say is Ozarkian of Missoura. I like to maintain roots to my heritage. I first heard the word "peckorwood" from my paternal grandpa when he would address friends and foes alike with that moniker. When Dave copied that Wikipedia diffention of the word I had never heard that in that type of conotation. Good thing he didn't go all the way to the bottom of the definitions. There were no racist remarks or intentions at all when I made that statement. That is just to say that is the way I like to talk and write. I don't mean to stir any one up but I still hold the the adjective of "pompus". Anyway, I surrender and am waving the white flag with the caveat that my opinions remain the same. I won't bother you no more!

See ya again,

Greg

Well ... Bye!!

Hey chl:

No offence taken. I got a hell of a laugh out of the whole thing. I haven't the peckerwood since I was in short pants. All but forgot that one.

What the hell is a loggerhead. I thought it was a beer but then remembered that was lagerhead.

Carpediem

Chi, don't worry. No offense taken, at least not here. Your post was amusing.
Peter.