Finally took my Searcy 450 NE to the range today to try her out. It is shooting 3-4 inches low which is a surprise since I specified it shoot 1 inch high at 50 yards when ordering it. But that should be an easy fit with either a lower rear sight blade or lower front sight bead.

Load was the regulation load supplied by Searcy which is 94 grains of IRM 4831 under a Hornady 500 grain soft point seated to a C.O.L. of 3.95-4 inches. Using good double resting techniques every 2 shot group crossed at 50 yards. Groups were about 1 - 1.5 inches with the right barrel hitting to the left and the left hitting to the right. Should be an easy fix to get them regulated and I suspect should drop the load by 2 grains and try that first. Thoughts?

Akmike did have some factory Hornadys loaded with solids and offered me a couple to try. They hit within 3/4 of an inch of each other and only crossed by about 3/8's of an inch. Which could of easily been my fault.

Very solid rifle with a slight learning curve to learning how to shoot it. Oh, and if you buy some Hornady brass make sure you run it through the sizer first because some were very difficult to chamber.

Randy, what you suspected is what I would do, drop the load 2 grains and see what happens.

Just a thought, are you using a 6 o’clock hold or holding dead center? Lowering the speed should raise your point of impact.
Good luck
Bill

Back it off a couple of grains and try it in 1/2 grain increments.

I agree with Bill! Check and see whether Searcy was using a 6 o'clock or center hold when regulating. Unless the front sight is fiber optic, a center hold on a black bullseye target is very difficult (for me) to hold accurately. You can get targets with a white center 10 ring that might be easier to (center) hold. They can be downloaded.
Peter.

The 3 - 4 inches low could also be the difference between having the bead in the bottom of the V and having it level with the top of the rear sight / V.


Re the 6 o'clock hold, I agree, it is much easier to see the target and maintain the same sight picture for BOTH shots.

6 oclock always. Bead is sitting on the bottom of the V and am aiming for the bottom of the black circle with no space in between. Will drop her 2 grains and load up another 20.

Even though this one kicks it doesnt really belt my cheek like my 9,3 Chapuis does. Shoulder didnt even get sore after 18 rounds off the bench today.

Thanks guys. I checked the other unfired Hornady brass in stock and it all chambers easily. Am thinking it could be possible I may of added just a touch of crimp causing the rounds to "swell" slightly. Backed off the seating die some more so this time I know for sure no crimp is applied.

All my rifles are dead on hold. Center of bead is where the bullet impact will be. Your rifle was never shot with hand loads. Only factory Hornady ammo. Back off as mentioned above 2 grains and try again.
Have fun

I tried out my new Searcy Field Grade .450 NE over the weekend as well. I fired 10 rounds using a standing rest comprised of a sandbag on top of a camera tripod. A second tripod, located 10 feet forward, held my chronograph.

Firing 6 Hornady DGX and 4 Hornady DGS factory loads resulted in a mean velocity of 2,116 fps. My rifle has 26" bbls. The Hornady box claims 2,150 fps in a 28" bbl.

The 10 rounds were within a 2" x 2" area. Accuracy will improve as I get used to the rifle.

Impact was 1 1/2" left and 2" high. I may be holding the bead too high in the Vee to see it better. I will move the rear sight 0.015" to the right before testing again.

Butch is going to send me a blank rear sight (no Vee cut) so I can try out an idea of mine. If the idea seems to have merit, I'll post the results and procedures.

Just my 2 cents and I don't post often, but after years of training a bunch of folks in the Navy and some in law enforcement, I have concluded that you must know your exact point of impact during a deadly force encounter (and charging dangerous game is just that). I have my 500 NE set up to hit exactly where the front bead sits when I shoulder the rifle. All of my DG shooting using a double rifle have been within a range of 50 yards, and knowing exactly where the rifle shoots saved my butt during my last buffalo hunt. We are taught to pick up the sights - focusing on the front in our formal training, but the target is stationary, and not moving. I want the rifle to shoot where I am looking.
On the other hand, my High Power, M1 Garand, 1903 Springfield and bullseye pistols are set up at 6 o’clock hold. But that is for target shooting at a know distance with time not being a real factor – even during the rapid fire stages.
I practice @ 25 and 10 yards, shooting offhand, trying to put 4 rounds in a 4” circle as fast as I can, without ever taking my eyes off the target. I also practice this while moving. I’m lucky to have my own range so I don’t upset the range master.
Again, just my 2 cents. Hope you enjoy your Searcy.
Jack

Someone tell me where this center-of-bead hold comes from. Is this a military idea or what?

I have some center of hold sights on the Glock but on a hunting rifle? To me, it makes absolutely no sense.

When you hold at 6 o'clock, Where are is your POI? Is it 6 inches high? 4 inches high? 1/2 inch etc. If you know the POI on top of the bead, I suppose it doesn't matter. My point was with dangerous game, you are not going to have enough time to "target" the rifle. To me , and perhaps not anyone else, a 6 o'clock hold with a charging buff does not make sense. Where do you hold? On his chin for a brain shot? On the bottom of the boss? Where I'm "looking", that is where I want my POI.
Again, just something to think about. Since 1979, I've changed my thoughts many times on firearms instruction and always open to new ideas.
Jack

quote:

Where I'm "looking", that is where I want my POI.
Jack

I'm with you Jack!

Well guys, since it is my rifle want it sighted in as I ordered it. And that is 1 inch high at 50 yards. That means to me it will hit 1 inch on top of the bead.
Lowering the powder charge will elevate it some, and if that doesnt get me where I need to be then will ask for a change out of front or rear sight. As I said, easy fix, lower the rear or swap out the front. But every weapon I own that wears iron sights including handguns are sighted the same way. To each there own.

Randy,

I think it is very easy to change the front sight with one of a different height or type.

If I remember correctly, Butch uses the inserts for the Masterpiece sight from NECG. You can also get those inserts from Midway. There are a couple of different beads, a sourdough, a flip-up night (folding moon), and even fiber optic.

The rear is easily adjusted for windage. Butch told me that he makes his own rear sights.

You will be able to get your POI right where you want it.

I think people are confusing the 6 o clock hold and why we hold at 6 o'clock and where we want the POI.

Regardless of where you hold - 6 o'clock, dead centre, top of target, the POI MUST still be to where you aimed (POA).

The only reason to use the 6 o'clcok hold is because it is far easier to have the bead sit consistently just below the big black target than it is to hold it in the middle / centre of a big black target.

Having a DR not shoot to where you aim is a PITA as in the field, having to "think" about holding off just doesn't work for instinctive shooting.

One could go insane reading some of this stuff!

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
One could go insane reading some of this stuff!

Agreed, especially when you read my original post.

So how did this errant rifle turn out?

92 grains of IMR 4831, 500 grain Hornady, 2,100 fps.
Perfectly regulated at 50 yards. If I do my part it will shoot 1 inch groups without crossing.

Why did you did up a thread this old just to ask me about, in your words, an "errant" rifle?

If this is your way of trying to stir up shit because of the other comments about me returning the VC your timing is right on. You guys having a fun time with this? Childish and immature if you ask me.

Remember, I was the one smart enough to demand my money back from Hein and got a complete refund

Since you answered so defensively and offensively and with a very good dig with the Hein issue, I'll take a different tact. If I wanted to start a pissing match in the first place, I would have done it on the other thread with your obvious attempts at trolling.

Actually I was going to respond supporting your issue, beacause I remembered a thread where you had mentioned regulation issues, but I never turn down a good pissing match, especially after I saw your reply.

The Searcy-per your own words-was regulated with factory GGXs and was not regulated with 500gr Hornadys so it is accurate to deduce the rifle still has regulation issues with what it was regulated with, factory 480gr Hornady DGXs.

Searcy Rifles have an impeccable reputation for regulation, so your crying "wolf", pardon the pun, is true to character. Since I was interested in VC rifle until I realized it was for a leftie, I asked another forumite (not Ken) who had the rifle for testing as well as the pictures of the regulation target AND targets he shot with what the rifle was loaded with, factory Hornady ammo, the rifle shot as advertised. As to the comb being [sic] too high, well, that is a chance you take when you turn down the offer to be measured, that's your problem ace, and not the rifle's. So, if the targets *I* saw and again including the regulation target were fine, one can only conclude you have issues with techique or the assessment by the other gentleman on the VC thread was spot on. My good friend JudgeG has owned a BUNCH of Searcys and they ALL shot like varmint rifles.
The search function is a wonderful tool, and there is more, so much more out there regarding you and your incessant whinning, let me know if you want to continue.

PICTURE DELETED AS IT WOULD SERVE NO PURPOSE TO SATISFY THIS SILLY BANTERING.

Four different guys shot the VC I purchased, two with factory ammo, two with ammo that duplicated factory velocity. I stand by the fact the rifle crossed with every shot and hit 6-10 high. The more you guys bring this up, the more unfavorable reviews people will see about these rifles if they do a search. If that is your desire, so be it.

I really like my Searcy and my Chapuis. Never cried wolf about either. Never sent either of them back for regulation issues.

Go find someone else to debate this crap with.

Jorge,
Is that target supposed to have been shot with the VC 450/400 mentioned?

Mike, PM answered and SW re-read what I wrote, I never said what you wrote was not true, that said, a search for VC issues? that is an universe of one...

quote:

Originally posted by Snowwolfe:
Remember, I was the one smart enough to demand my money back from Hein and got a complete refund

You just took a swipe at Jorge over the Hein debacle and that was one of the things I was referring to on the other thread. Several folks had ordered and received rifles from Greg and you went off the deep-end and started whining on here and demanding your money back before it was ever evident that there was a problem with Greg and his ability to fulfill his commitments and deliver his product as promised was not yet in question . If I recall correctly it was because he didn't return your emails quickly enough to suit you and not because you were smarter than Jorge or anyone else here. As far as problems with VC doubles go your issue is the first most of us have heard of and apparently it existed only in your mind as there is nothing wrong with the rifle and if there had been Ken and VC would have made it right but you never gave them the chance. To my mind, custom rifles are a two way street and if there is a problem you owe it to the maker to at least give them a chance to make it right and don't tell me that you didn't because Ken offered to take the rifle back. We both know exactly why he got fed up and told you to send it back to him.

You sure manage to come up with a lot of conjectures mixed up with fantasies. Interesting.. Are you a paid mouthpiece or just do it for free?

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Brooks:
You sure manage to come up with a lot of conjectures mixed up with fantasies. Interesting.. Are you a paid mouthpiece or just do it for free?

Neither. Res ipsa loquitur.

quote:

Originally posted by Robert Wilde:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Brooks:
You sure manage to come up with a lot of conjectures mixed up with fantasies. Interesting.. Are you a paid mouthpiece or just do it for free?

Nice Try

Managed to change it to latin...

"Thing itself speaks" tacky IMO

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Brooks:

quote:

Originally posted by Robert Wilde:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Brooks:
You sure manage to come up with a lot of conjectures mixed up with fantasies. Interesting.. Are you a paid mouthpiece or just do it for free?

Nice Try

Managed to change it to latin...

"Thing itself speaks" tacky IMO

Tacky? I think not. The correct translation is "the thing speaks for itself". Apt description of Snowwolf's VC episode in light of the context of his past experiences, don't you think?

No like I already said earlier.. You don't know all the facts and thus you're conjecturing and fantisizing about this.

`Nuff said.

I'm not conjecturing or fantasizing, I know more of the facts than you are aware of. I own a VC double and know some of the folks who are involved. I'll leave it at that.

If you never shot that rifle you don't know much. The rifle is the problem NOT KEBCO or Snowwolfe.

quote:

Originally posted by Robert Wilde:

quote:

Originally posted by Snowwolfe:
Remember, I was the one smart enough to demand my money back from Hein and got a complete refund

You just took a swipe at Jorge over the Hein debacle and that was one of the things I was referring to on the other thread. Several folks had ordered and received rifles from Greg and you went off the deep-end and started whining on here and demanding your money back before it was ever evident that there was a problem with Greg and his ability to fulfill his commitments and deliver his product as promised was not yet in question . If I recall correctly it was because he didn't return your emails quickly enough to suit you and not because you were smarter than Jorge or anyone else here. As far as problems with VC doubles go your issue is the first most of us have heard of and apparently it existed only in your mind as there is nothing wrong with the rifle and if there had been Ken and VC would have made it right but you never gave them the chance. To my mind, custom rifles are a two way street and if there is a problem you owe it to the maker to at least give them a chance to make it right and don't tell me that you didn't because Ken offered to take the rifle back. We both know exactly why he got fed up and told you to send it back to him.

Like I said before, Ken never offered to "fix" the Verney Carron rifle. He offered a refund and I took it. What part of this do you have a hard time understanding?

Call me what you want but I am pretty pround of myself for recognizing Hein was a cheat and demanded my money back and got it. It is unfortunate others did not during the same time period. It was wrong of me to slam Jorge for that.

We can keep this up as long as you want to. Every time someone does a search for Verney Carron it may lead them to this forum and these comments and they can form their own opinions, either good or bad.

quote:

Originally posted by Robert Wilde:
I'm not conjecturing or fantasizing, I know more of the facts than you are aware of. I own a VC double and know some of the folks who are involved. I'll leave it at that.

Folks? I dealt with Ken and no one else. Fact is the rifle was regulated twice at the factory and still could not shoot properly. I still have the targets to prove it. Maybe the other "folk" you are referring to is the one who called me up three times in one evening to tell me I didnt know how to reload nor shoot a double rifle.

Another fact was I supplied measurements to Verney Carron (there is that word again if people want to do a web search) for the stock and they must of been ignored as the comb was built way to high.

These were the same measurements Butch used to build my 450 NE stock and it fits me like a glove. Absolutely perfect.

Ken also posted on the African Hunting forums the rifle shot 6 inches high for his friend. Further more he stated if he waited about 15-20 second between firing barrels it would sometimes cross. Why sometimes?

"No two double rifles are the same, no two double rifle shooters are the same. I shot the same gun. From cold barrels with 5 to 7 seconds between shots with factory ammo it shot fine. If I waited 15 to 20 seconds it would sometimes cross by a inch. Crossing can also be because of how hard you are holding the gun or even if you are "jerking" the trigger.
Elevation depends on how you are looking at the sights. For me the gun either shot a little low or on the bull depending on the day and distance. A friend shot consistently 6" higher with the same gun ....again he is looking at the sights differently."


Is this how a well regulated rifle should shoot?

I changed the title of this thread to reflect it has now been changed to more Verney Carron comments as I do not want anyone to think this is a negative thread about Searcy rifles, which was the original idea.

Why did you change the title of your thread to imply that there is a problem with VC rifles when people do future web searches? And what is with the shit that every time you mention "Verney-Carron" in a post you also post "there is that word again if people want to do a web search"? I cannot imagine that this is for any reason other than to damage the Verney-Carron brand and to negatively impact Ken's business and livelihood.

Snowwolfe, your thread is founded upon a problem you have with a Searcy, and then you change the title to morph it into your little battle over a V-C. I have never seen this done before. For those of us watching from the sidelines, Snowwolfe has proven himself to be a complete and total asshole!! This should serve as a warning for others never to sell a gun to his whiney ass!

quote:

Originally posted by Snowwolfe:
Another fact was I supplied measurements to Verney Carron (there is that word again if people want to do a web search) for the stock and they must of been ignored as the comb was built way to high.

I won't speak to your rifle, but my experience couldn't have been any more different. Knowing my measurements from previous builds, I handled a Purdey 500, which fit me perfectly. The owner had the original Purdey build ledger with the requisite dimensions; he took approximately 7-8 photographs and took incredibly detailed measurements including grip radius, pitch at comb, heel, etc, etc. All told, I think I sent the stockers about 15 numbers plus the pictures. Honestly, I figured I'd get something approximating the usual LOP, DAC, DAH. On receipt of the rifle it came up perfectly for me, but I was of course curious to see just how close they got it. Last month, I had the chance to hook up with the Purdey owner and we got the two rifles next to one another and began to compare. They were so close we couldn't pick up any appreciable differences. God knows how they did that, but they did. The notion that comb height was "ignored" doesn't ring true in the slightest.

quote:

Originally posted by Snowwolfe:
Remember, I was the one smart enough to demand my money back from Hein and got a complete refund

Call me what you want but I am pretty pround of myself for recognizing Hein was a cheat and demanded my money back and got it. It is unfortunate others did not during the same time period. It was wrong of me to slam Jorge for that.

[/QUOTE]

There were many good people who paid money to Hein before and after you....

You actually think everyone would have been paid, if they all asked for their money back at the same time you did?

The money you got from Hein came from some of those folks, not Hein....and this makes you smarter and pround (I assume you meant proud)?

You were just lucky, not smarter...but proud? That's kinda like an insult, right?

Yea, you were wrong...but continue to be proud...

I just got my internet back so I'm a bit late to the war of words. I responded to this via PM BEFORE I read this thread, with a goal of putting the pissing match behind us and had I known the title of this thread was changed, I would have worded my response differently, MUCH differently. To now change the title as a way to misdirect is beyond the pale.

I am now VERY SORRY that Ken is now paying the freight for something I did and I feel very badly about that. I just returned from the range with my VC and I'm opening another thread on what I think might be the issue with doubles and errant regulation. Maybe if we all contribute, we might learn something. I know I did and my VC shoots to regulation. I've also decided to repost the picture of the 450/400 VC in question, shot with Hornady factory ammo--at much warmer temps-- There's a lesson there somewhere... jorge

quote:

Originally posted by Robert Wilde:
Why did you change the title of your thread to imply that there is a problem with VC rifles when people do future web searches? And what is with the shit that every time you mention "Verney-Carron" in a post you also post "there is that word again if people want to do a web search"? I cannot imagine that this is for any reason other than to damage the Verney-Carron brand and to negatively impact Ken's business and livelihood.

Changed it because I did not want people just reading half the thread and thinking I had these regulation problems with my Searcy.
Searcy rifles dont need to be brought into this pissing contest.

You bascially keep on calling me a liar so I will continue to tell you time after time the Verney Carron rifle built for me was not regulated properly.

Sideline the issue and call me anything you want. I don't feel guilty for a second for getting my money back for a Verney Carron rifle that crossed with loads ranging from the low 1,600 fps range to almost 2,100 fps and I have another shooter who will testify to the same.

And I'll repeat, my Searcy rifle is perfectly regulated.

Judging by supporting emails and PM's received I am not part of the "VC" clique and thats fine with me. The real problem is some of you VC owners simply can not accept they built a bad rifle, ship happens. Get over it. They are not perfect.

Double Don, I have watched you insult people here for a long time so I am used to you being a child.

This entire shit throwing match was started by Robert after I posted an unbiased review of my VC when a person starting a thread asked the question. Go back and read the review. I only posted the facts and even spoke highly of the customer service.
If you don't think Robert was put up to this by someone then you need your head examined. My review comments:

"My experience with VC rifles was not as good as the other posters as the one I had built for me was not regulated correctly and the comb was just a tad to high. You can research my old posts if you want to explore more into it. It was a stunning rifle, beautiful wood, excellent fit and finish. But if it doesnt shoot correctly, well then its just a safe queen.
Rifle - not so good
Customer service - excellent, 100% refund.

I would still consider them for a future rifle build knowing I was taken care of if the price was right."