"

Why would I want to walk 20 kilometres,, (that must be at least 5 miles), in any temperature?"

Following elephant often means you will need to walk over 10ml to get onto them.

I do not own any DRs though I have been fortunate to shoot most of those calibers with Sam. The 450 was Nitro for black I think.

The reason I chose the 450/400 is for sheer nostalgia - Jim Corbett and my Indian heritage. I also happened to shoot Sam's London Sporting Park (Webley) rifle very well.

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:
"

Why would I want to walk 20 kilometres,, (that must be at least 5 miles), in any temperature?"

Following elephant often means you will need to walk over 10ml to get onto them.

So walking 12.42 miles in 104 degree temps with a 10.5 lb rifle is doable but if you have an 11.5 rifle it isn't doable?

J

quote:

Originally posted by INTJ:

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:
"

Why would I want to walk 20 kilometres,, (that must be at least 5 miles), in any temperature?"

Following elephant often means you will need to walk over 10ml to get onto them.

So walking 12.42 miles in 104 degree temps with a 10.5 lb rifle is doable but if you have an 11.5 ridle it isn't doable?

I would much prefer to do it with an even lighter rifle BUT I would not do it with anything over the 11Lbs mark, thus dictating the calibre. This is from experience on a few Ele hunts and one particularly tuff Lion hunt that took place after several years of mountain climbing so I was in ok shape. So weight is a major factor in a rifle that may be carried one one such hunt (including the shorter distance buff hunts that often take place in hot and rough terrain). One should always be in a position able to wheeled their rifle with purpose and preferably not shagged carrying Kit just too heavy.

This is my 7th year of working in South Afrika (safari and wildlife ranching). Am a graduate of PH school. I have three DRs. The first one I purchased was a .450 NE on account of reloading versatility and comfort level in shooting...I am 74. It gets the job done...personally used on buffel and lion. I let the other PHs use it when backing up on DG. Second DR is a .375 H&H. Bought it just to have it and because ammunition is very economical. Low recoil and fun to shoot. Third DR is a .45-70. Biggest use is in tracking wounded plains game in the bush. Clients that can't shoot straight are the bane of every PH. Economical, and can get ~1900 fps with VV powder. It performs, and is "way cool" with clients...they like to carry it when appropriate (last client that used it shot an ostrich at 100 meters). Final analysis...marksmanship is everything! Enjoy the sport and whatever DR you own is the right one for you.

SCI Life Member
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PHASA Member
WRSA Member

I chose the 470 Nitro as my favorite. It is the most common caliber of double in the hands of PHs in Zimbabwe. If your ammo fails to arrive, it is the easiest caliber to find there. Very likely your PH will have some. While the 500 does give you a little extra stopping power over the 470, the 470 has more than enough to stop an elephant charge. It has never failed me on an even dozen elephants taken. In fact, Taylor preferred the 500/465 which has even less stopping power than the 470.


465H&H

quote:

Taylor preferred the 500/465

He preferred the 450NE...

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:

quote:

Taylor preferred the 500/465

He preferred the 450NE...

Curious as to where he expressed that preference. In African Rifles and Cartridges he devotes a full two paragraphs to the .450 3 1/4". He devotes two and a half pages to the .500/.465. I just wonder where he stated a preference for the .450 NE over all other double rifle cartridges.

According to Tony Sanchez-Arino, who knew Taylor quite well (he met him in London in 1960), he always preferred the .500/.465.

His last double was a .450 but that is probably due to lack of funds to keep a Holland&Holland in 500/465.

I find the 500-416 more and more interesting.It might not be my favorite but I think it could be accurate out to 100yds.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:

quote:

Taylor preferred the 500/465

He preferred the 450NE...

Curious as to where he expressed that preference. In African Rifles and Cartridges he devotes a full two paragraphs to the .450 3 1/4". He devotes two and a half pages to the .500/.465. I just wonder where he stated a preference for the .450 NE over all other double rifle cartridges.

No idea, but it's in there somewhere, although I could be in error.

Eagle One,
A few years back I hunted in Limpopo Province with a PH, Neil Barnard, whose family own a gorgeous farm at Sterkrivier, right beneath Hangklip. Wonderful people. Just wondering if you know them?

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:

quote:

Taylor preferred the 500/465

He preferred the 450NE...

Curious as to where he expressed that preference. In African Rifles and Cartridges he devotes a full two paragraphs to the .450 3 1/4". He devotes two and a half pages to the .500/.465. I just wonder where he stated a preference for the .450 NE over all other double rifle cartridges.

Jorge may well be correct as Taylor expressed different choices at times! There are no flies on the 450NE and until the 470NE was released to the industry, I think the 450NE was the most common in all brands. Because the 470NE was available to the trade it suddenly became very popular.

IMO, the two cartridges he constantly touted were the 450-400, and the 375 H&H! and I would say those were really his favorites!

However like Jorge, I believe it is a toss-up with Taylor according to his many opinions on rifles.
.......................................................................

Mike: You might be right, I looked (briefly) through Taylor's book tonight and other than him saying it was the caliber most PHs used at the time, there is no specific reference, at least in his book, for his predilection for the 450. I did find other sources like Graham Wright, our own Ivan Carter, Boddington,etc, where they all said the 450 would be their choice. Cheers, jorge

Thank Jorge. I could recall Taylor talking about calibers he liked and calibers he did not like, but could never remember him indicating a preference for one or another . . . other than the .375 H&H which he recommended (along with the .404 Jeffery) as the best one rifle caliber.

For Ron Vella...

See private message I sent you.

Colonel Dave Nuss
"Eagle One"

The most logical choice would be the .470. Put for me personally, it would be a .450 #2 in a Bradshaw falling block to go with my 9.3x74.

I love the way Baileys rifle handles. Easiest double to carry I've ever seen, and balances so well.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:

quote:

Taylor preferred the 500/465

He preferred the 450NE...

Curious as to where he expressed that preference. In African Rifles and Cartridges he devotes a full two paragraphs to the .450 3 1/4". He devotes two and a half pages to the .500/.465. I just wonder where he stated a preference for the .450 NE over all other double rifle cartridges.

Hmmm, let's see. 'Gunwriter'. 'Reviewing' rifles and cartridges...
Couldn't possibly have been angling for a good deal?

I love my .470, but the barrels are too short. I'd like a .470 with longer barrels.

I chose the .500 because I don't yet have one and because that was John Hunter's favorite. I'd still like longer barrels.

I voted for the 450 NE 3 1/4.

Reason: I just have shot the 4 first rounds with my new Verney Carron

I was a little bit excited about recoil and the kick in shoulder that had a surgery July/August 2014. Had some pain for 3-4 days, but gone now. The double is measured to fit me and it was surprisingly smooth to shoot with. Looking forward to some shooting this week during Easter holidays.

Cheers,

Morten

My Verney-Carron in 600NE.

Deadly in my hands on everything from citrus fruit to elephant;

Made to my specs, so fits me "just so";

Walked many, many miles tracking elephant and other game and never noticed the weight nor had any difficulty bringing it to battery when the time came;

Can use a pool cue to run an oily rag through the barrels;

Loaded ammo belt can be used as ballast for deep sea diving;

Belt slide can be used to carry amply supply of proper celebratory cigars

Some of my reasons ...

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:
My Verney-Carron in 600NE.

Deadly in my hands on everything from citrus fruit to elephant;

Made to my specs, so fits me "just so";

Walked many, many miles tracking elephant and other game and never noticed the weight nor had any difficulty bringing it to battery when the time came;

Can use a pool cue to run an oily rag through the barrels;

Loaded ammo belt can be used as ballast for deep sea diving;

Belt slide can be used to carry amply supply of proper celebratory cigars

Some of my reasons ...

'Bout time you chimed in here. Only three of us had the correct answer. And, you forgot one more advantage: you can use your .600 as a single shot and keep a coke and sandwich in the other barrel for lunch.
Cal

I have both 450 and 500
Love them both equally

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
You made the right choice; if the 450 had not been banned in 1907 (or thereabouts), it would have been far more popular and the famous 470, etc, would never have been invented.

I think you need to go back to the history book on that one! The 470NE was invented before the 450NE was banned in India, And the 450NE was never banned in Africa.

The reason the 470NE was so popular was because it was released to the trade while most other big bore double rifle rounds were preparatory rounds by makers of rifles made in that chambering.

I agree there is nothing wrong with the 450NE round and the banning in India had nothing to do with it's loss in popularity to the larger bore rounds. Most elephant hunters in the first two decades of the 20th century in Africa simply were drawn to very large chamberings.

..................................................................

MAC:
Was not the .450 banned in Sudan?
Cal

quote:

Deadly in my hands on everything from citrus fruit to elephant;

Doc, that's because you accidently shoot both barrels at the same time :-)

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:

quote:

Deadly in my hands on everything from citrus fruit to elephant;

Doc, that's because you accidently shoot both barrels at the same time :-)

Isn't that why they have two triggers?

I use a Heym 470 NE (10.5 lbs) and really like it. Good all around feral hog gun, too!

My son like his Searcy 577 NE (13.5 lbs). He doesn't mind carrying it around, but it is just too heavy for me. True stopping round. Stopped a walking bull ele in his tracks at 5 yds and caused his buff to arch up and freeze like the hammer it is.

The best DG round is the one you can handle best under adverse conditions.

I have always found the discussion stopping power here strange. There is no logical explanation of why a .500 bullet will be noticeably harder "hitting" than a .470 or .450 bullet with similar sd's. The frontal area is 5-10% bigger, the weight of the bullet is 12% more (500 vs 570). Anecdotal evidence (personal stories) and blind belief dominate these discussions. I wanted a .500 because.... I find it cool and can handle it, not because it is more effective. Who would argue a .470 is significantly more powerful than a .450? Or .600 vs 577? There is no free power, no cartridge gives a leap in punch without pushing back the same, not even the fine .500. Maybe the buff or elephant under a few marginal conditions react differently to a .470 and a .600, but I'm not sure.... The moose I shoot react similarly to 6.5 swede and .375.. That is about the difference between .416 and .600..,

quote:

Originally posted by Norsk:
There is no logical explanation of why a .500 bullet will be noticeably harder "hitting" than a .470 or .450 bullet with similar sd's. The frontal area is 5-10% bigger, the weight of the bullet is 12% more (500 vs 570).

How can there be "no logical explanation" when you in fact gave the logical explanation in the next sentence?

AS an old boxer weighing 230 pounds i can hit harder (momentum) than a .600. 10% of very little is not a lot

quote:

Originally posted by Norsk:
AS an old boxer weighing 230 pounds i can hit harder (momentum) than a .600. 10% of very little is not a lot

I agree . . . assuming your fist is moving at 1900 fps.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
The .500 NE, because it represents the ideal combination of stopping power and tolerable recoil. Go bigger and the recoil jumps up considerably and the stopping power only jumps up incrementally. Go smaller and you give up significant stopping power chasing reduced recoil.

Same reasons

After watching these stopping power discussions, and reading articles and books on the topic, and shooting a few animals; I think this--mathematics do a poor job of describing how a given bullet at a given velocity will affect a given animal in a given state.

However, we do have a century of actual field results with smokeless powder rounds, and when we look at those results and real world experiences we can make some generalizations.......being generalizations there are always exceptions.

In general, based on 100+ years of field results, a 450 NE is nearly identical to a 470 NE in performance. However, a 500 NE is a definite step up in power, regardless of how the math comes out.

I think 500+ is cooler, but I don't believe in God or anecdotal evidence (stories). I'm not sure, but I weigh 1.7 million grains and can put half of that behind a punch.. No need for 1900fps fist anyway, I think penetration to cns is the issue and that decreases over .450... Near miss of brain with 10% bigger bullet or momentum... not a practical factor... I can't speak from a lot of experience, but I don't think that is the issue, there are also stories of 600, 700, 2 bores etc not having enough penetration..

I think it is placebo... Confirmation bias in the hunter causing these perceptions, nothing more. That said I would love to have a 500+, especially a 4 bore !

Differences of opinion . . . that is what makes a horse race. I do find it interesting when I think about the number of professional hunters that used .416 and .458 caliber rifles that made the jump to .500 and larger caliber rifles. They either believe in God or anecdotal evidence or have observed something in actual field experience that causes them to believe that the ~15% difference in bullet weight and ~11% difference in bullet diameter are material.

Everyone i spoke to[who used 500s on big game,and i have ] and one well known PH, all said that 500s had a Extra Noticeable effect on Big game compared to lesser calibres ,i dont think thats bat crap ,but might be to people who use something ''smaller''and dont want to go any bigger

The 500 is definitley a bigger hammer,no arguments from me on that,I have heard from PH's who have noticed the difference in a hit by a 500 versus smaller calibers,I do not have a 500,no plans to get one anytime soon,maybe one day,there might be one in my safe,but for now my big bore DG rifles are in the 470NE,500/416NE & 458 Lott,have hunted DG with all three,all worked fine except one instance where I shot a soft in a buff's arse ha ha,that was not a good day,I dont feel I need any more horse power to get the job done,if you dont shoot your gun enough even a cannon wont be enough anyways.

quote:

Originally posted by Norsk:
I think 500+ is cooler, but I don't believe in God or anecdotal evidence (stories). I'm not sure, but I weigh 1.7 million grains and can put half of that behind a punch.. No need for 1900fps fist anyway, I think penetration to cns is the issue and that decreases over .450... Near miss of brain with 10% bigger bullet or momentum... not a practical factor... I can't speak from a lot of experience, but I don't think that is the issue, there are also stories of 600, 700, 2 bores etc not having enough penetration..

I think it is placebo... Confirmation bias in the hunter causing these perceptions, nothing more. That said I would love to have a 500+, especially a 4 bore !

quote:

Originally posted by Norsk:
I think 500+ is cooler, but I don't believe in God or anecdotal evidence (stories). I'm not sure, but I weigh 1.7 million grains and can put half of that behind a punch.. No need for 1900fps fist anyway, I think penetration to cns is the issue and that decreases over .450... Near miss of brain with 10% bigger bullet or momentum... not a practical factor... I can't speak from a lot of experience, but I don't think that is the issue, there are also stories of 600, 700, 2 bores etc not having enough penetration..

I think it is placebo... Confirmation bias in the hunter causing these perceptions, nothing more. That said I would love to have a 500+, especially a 4 bore !

PM me. I may sell my 4-bore double. I have a nice 8 for sale now.
Cal