My experiences:

Krieghoff Big Five 500/416. Did not regulate when i shot it from bench (sitting, hand under forend, resting on sandbag, elbows resting on table). Superb regulation when i shot it standing or from sitting position (elbows resting on knees).

Krieghoff Big Five 470. 5 inch crossing at 100 yards when shooting from bench. Shooting from sitting elbows on knees around 2 inches between shots.

I tried various loads with both guns and had the same results. Is this what you guys also experience? I am a bit curious because I read a lot of you test loads from bench....

I feel that when possible, load testing should be done using a standing rest - with your forearm resting on a well padded cross member.
That way, you are somewhat assured of a steady hold while approximating the trigger control and recoil characteristics of shooting offhand.
Unless you plan on dragging the sitting rest out for a stalk, the results from the rest are moot. Especially if you are shooting better Offhand or sitting.
I would simply discount it as "one of those things"

IMO it is not easy to get big bores to shoot where you want them to shoot at 50 or 100yds.This requires skill.I am sure many people come on here and posts pictures of targets that they say they shot but I suspect many not to be true.Like when you see someone always post a target of a almost one hole group always in the center.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
IMO it is not easy to get big bores to shoot where you want them to shoot at 50 or 100yds.This requires skill.I am sure many people come on here and posts pictures of targets that they say they shot but I suspect many not to be true.Like when you see someone always post a target of a almost one hole group always in the center.

I have had exactly the opposite experience. Big bores for me shoot better and need less load development in both doubles and bolt guns then the smaller calibers.

I have found that resting your forearm hand on a solid but soft rest works well, doesn't matter if I am standing or sitting. As soon as I try and rest my grip hand elbow on something the regulation goes to hell. Obviously must affect the recoil arc

quote:

Originally posted by McKay:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
IMO it is not easy to get big bores to shoot where you want them to shoot at 50 or 100yds.This requires skill.I am sure many people come on here and posts pictures of targets that they say they shot but I suspect many not to be true.Like when you see someone always post a target of a almost one hole group always in the center.

I have had exactly the opposite experience. Big bores for me shoot better and need less load development in both doubles and bolt guns then the smaller calibers.

I agree with you Mac. I've always found the big bores to be very accurate and less finicky with specific loads.

To the question of regulation and shooting from the bench. I have a hard time getting my doubles to shoot correctly from the bench. The best method I've found with shooting them for absolute accuracy is using sticks. Once you establish that your load is shooting to regulation however, I always shoot the doubles offhand for practice.

Strange things these doubles are! Very finicky as to how they are held when shooting. The slightest change causes differences downrange. Case in point; with my old Merkel 500NE, I found that it was shooting about 3 inches right at 25 yards. I moved the rear sight to compensate. It put the bullets back right on the bull. Lionhunter here on AR, now owns that rifle. I ran into him yesterday at the airport coming to the SCI show. He told me the gun had been shooting about 3" left so he had move the rear sight back to the reference line. Hasn't had a chance to shoot it since yet but I'll bet it is back on target for him. There is something in the way he and I hold the rifle that is making the difference as we both shoot the same load using the 570gr CEBs.

POI does not change however the rifle is held.If it does it means that the shooter is not up to the skill level.I`ve been down that long road before.

Oh great "Shiturpants in the Presence of Elephants", please give us your great wisdom of the double rifle of which you know ... Jacksquat!

I've seen no discernible difference between my process for testing accuracy between a double and a bolt. I shoot a load from the bench using the same techique, then once a specific load shows promise, I'll shoot of the sticks and in both instances, the groups off the bench are better.

A bullet doesn't instantly leave the barrel of the rifle. Stuff happens when it is traveling the 16 to 26" of travel

Therefore, whatever is touching the rifle can effect the velocity of pitch up of the barrel, it's vibrations (up and down) and in a double, it's rotations around a center axis.

Ain't nothing but physics.

Consistancy of pressure and points thereof are what make repeatable accuracy (given an already accurate barrel and load).

Just look at tunable barrels like those with Browning Boss's thereupon. The purpose is to weigh (harmonize) the barrel with the velocity of the exiting bullet so that it leaves during the "slowest" part of the vibration cycle (typically at the top... yeah, I know it's not really "slower"). It is not hard to imagine what would happen if the forend screw on a rifle is loosened or tightened. Upward pressure from a rest will do the same thing... or even pressure from a side as with a barrel with unequal bedding... or lack of recoil space with a lead sled instead of a "giving" shoulder.

So, a double, with all it's extra issues is best shot as it will be in the field with no "induced" pressures from a hold that doesn't let the gun recoil as it will when hunting.

All that said, some doubles just shoot regardless and you (like Jorge) are lucky when you get one.

Just my two cents worth.

This is my wisdom.The bigger you are and the worst you shoot-the worst you shoot!

Definately shooting better offhand. 3-4 inch Group at 100 yards (8 shots). I bet I account for 50% of the spread shooting offhand. I am using iron sights as well...

When I shot from bench I rested both my elbows on the bench and restricted recoil movement a lot... must be that. Maybe Jorge has a different bench shooting technique. Does it also regulate like usual when you are shooting prone?

Norsk,

If you are shooting 3 to 4 inch groups out of a double at 100 yards and using iron sights I wouldn't worry about shooting off a bench or offhand. Sounds like you are shooting fine. Regulation of a double is more important at 25 to 50 yards in my opinon.

Sam

I develop all my DR loads from the bench,I would prefer a standing rest,but my range does not have one,I do use sticks as well but just to check my loads,once I am satisfied with a particular load,it is all off hand after that.
When I am shooting off the bench,I use a standard soft rest to rest my hand gripping the barrels & the forearm on,my right elbow is resting on a hard foam surface on the bench,I do use a sissy pad as well,my rifle is tight to my shoulder,I try my best to reduce any backward slap,this system has worked for me very well,once the gun is shooting well from the bench,I see no change in the p.o.I or regulation from that point on,I have developed loads for,470,500/416,458 Lott,450/400,375 H&H & 9.3x74R.

Jorge,

Just to take what the Judge said a bit further and concerning our conversation with Michael and the tips for the Non-Cons, the crossing issue has nothing to do with down range retained velocity, but rather the time the bullet remains in the barrel during which time the recoil arc has the ability to affect its flight. Speed up the muzzle velocity and the barrels will cross the impacts down range. Slow them down and they will spread. It has nothing to do with how much velocity they retain down range due to improved BC.

Bolt guns are primarily only affected by the amount of muzzle flip since the barrel is centered on the rifle's axis. However, the double's right barrel is right of the axis and the left is left of the axis. Therefore the double does not just flip the muzzle but also pushes the rifle right when firing the right barel and left when firing the left barrel. In reality these flip and side forces combine to rotate the rifle and they do so in opposite directions depending on which barrel is fired. O

As a result, anything which affects the recoil arc for which the rifle was regated will change the impact point. Some guns are more or less prone to this but bench shooting or the amount of downward force held on the forearm, amount of allowing the gun to recoil to the side, or any number of other forces placed on the rifle during recoil can have pronounced POI affects with a double.

A perfect example of this was the hassel I went through getting my 9.3x74R to regulate with the scope attached. It completely threw off the arc on mine while others with the same make and model of rifle had no issues at all. This being a result of doubles being largely handmade and therefore significantly different rifle to rifle. Your rifle sounds to be one of the more forgiving examples.

BTW, I'll look up John today at SCI.

I am very happy with the groups i shot offhand today. Almost as good as I managed with the 500/416 using aimpoint micro sight.

I am 6ft3 and weigh 220 pounds. It may be that I am restricting the gun during recoil more than others from bench.

I find that sitting upright and not hunched down at the bench help both with the groupings and the recoil.
I raise the stand to enable my forehand to get up more so my back is upright and straight.

quote:

Originally posted by McKay:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
IMO it is not easy to get big bores to shoot where you want them to shoot at 50 or 100yds.This requires skill.I am sure many people come on here and posts pictures of targets that they say they shot but I suspect many not to be true.Like when you see someone always post a target of a almost one hole group always in the center.

I have had exactly the opposite experience. Big bores for me shoot better and need less load development in both doubles and bolt guns then the smaller calibers.

First off you have to understand how a regulation composit group is supposed to look!

McKay you are absolutely correct! The faster the normal velocity in a cartridge plus the light weight of the small bore rifle it is chambered in the harder it is to regulate by the maker, and the harder it is to find a regulating load for the rifle. This is because the recoil is sharper, and the barrel time is much shorter from the time the primer fires till the bullet exits the muzzle, so the increments of adjustments are also tiny.

The larger bore double is by nature far heaver and the barrel time is much longer. The recoil is much straighter BACK because of the weight of the rifle so increments of adjustment of wedges and powder amount adjustments are wider.

As SHOOTAWAY above indicated that folks were posting targets with all the bullet holes showing almost one hole groups, as if that indicated proper regulation. In reality that target would indicate the rifle to be crossing at the distance from the muzzles to the target, and that is not proper regulation. A proper regulating group should be slightly egg shaped along the horizontal line with the aiming point in the middle.

I’m sure some of these targets shown on the internet are bogus, but if they are not, then the shooter doesn’t understand proper regulation. This the reason I have always said the targets that come with a new double rifle are nothing more than window dressing, and prove nothing other than two shots were fired on that target. These targets never have the bullet hole labeled as to what barrel the shot came from, so the rifle may be crossing there is no way to know from that target.

When finding a load for a rifle that regulates properly, it is not finding a couple of bullet holes in the target, but what you should be looking for is the CENTER of each barrel’s individual group of four shots in relation to the aiming point and the other barrels CENTER of group. Those two CENTERS are what you should be moving closer together, or farther apart, not individual bullet holes. So the two shot target that comes with a new double rifle tells you absolutely NOTHING.

To find proper regulation four shots must be fired from each barrel, each pair of shots fired from cool barrels. While keeping track of each shot from each barrel and their order of fire.

The best way to do this is to fire each barrel on a separate target holding exactly the same in relation to the aiming point on each target. Then find the center of each barrels individual group, in relation to the point of aim on each target. The CENTERS of each barrels individual group is what you should be trying to move on the target not individual bullet holes. When you find a proper regulating load the center of the left barrel group should be on its own side of the aiming point, an equal distance equal to half the distance between the bores of both barrels.

If say each barrel is capable of firing a one inch group the center of each on it’s on side of the aiming point, then the bullet holes on the RIGHT SIDE of the LEFT barrels group will automatically spill over into the LEFT SIDE of the RIGHT barrels group, and the LEFT SIDE of the RIGHT barrels group will spill over into the right side of the LEFT barrels group. The aiming point should be half way between the CENTERS of EACH barrels individual group.
...............................................................................

Very good explanation

Norsk,IMO there is no chance in this world you can shoot groups offhand at 100yds like you say you do and post this amateur crap you are posting.

MacD37,I didn`t know people still smoke hash at your age.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
MacD37,I didn`t know people still smoke hash at your age.

I'd be careful George. I'll bet Mac has a heck of a lot more experience with double than you.

Amazing.

Yet another series of shootaway responses that make me want to delete my location in my posts. For the record: Manitoba is a looooong way from Quebec.

quote:

Originally posted by jwm:
Amazing.

Yet another series of shootaway responses that make me want to delete my location in my posts. For the record: Manitoba is a looooong way from Quebec.

You trying to belong to the inn group?I see more and more that people don't know much about shooting open sight rifles.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
MacD37,I didn`t know people still smoke hash at your age.

That really was uncalled for and should be retracted! Very poor taste with the name calling.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Brooks:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
MacD37,I didn`t know people still smoke hash at your age.

That really was uncalled for and should be retracted! Very poor taste with the name calling.

Go to my dangerous ele thread and see what he posted.

quote:

Originally posted by jwm:
Amazing.

Yet another series of shootaway responses that make me want to delete my location in my posts. For the record: Manitoba is a looooong way from Quebec.

+1 BC is futher away.

Shootaway, I don't care what you think. The reason is you are a simple internet troll spewing out filth.

Maybe I'm really stupid AND a great shot!

quote:

Originally posted by Norsk:
Shootaway, I don't care what you think. The reason is you are a simple internet troll spewing out filth.

Maybe I'm really stupid AND a great shot!

Let`s see a video of you doing it and repeating it.That is in my mind a talent that does not go unhiden,unless...

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

IMO it is not easy to get big bores to shoot where you want them to shoot at 50 or 100yds.This requires skill....

POI does not change however the rifle is held.If it does it means that the shooter is not up to the skill level.I`ve been down that long road before...

This is my wisdom.The bigger you are and the worst you shoot-the worst you shoot!...

Norsk,IMO there is no chance in this world you can shoot groups offhand at 100yds like you say you do and post this amateur crap you are posting....

MacD37,I didn`t know people still smoke hash at your age....

Actually, I'm more concerned about the groups to which I am NOT seen to belong.

What kind of double rifles have you had experiences with Shootaway? Baikals in 45/70 or dremelled Sabatti's. A lot of people can shoot groups like that at 100 yards with quality 470s. Sitting, resting elbows on knees is almost as stable as prone position...

Damn you should come visit here in Norway, maybe I could show you a thing or two... would be good promotion for Krieghoff as well! You better lay off the Hash-pipe though...

quote:

Originally posted by jwm:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

IMO it is not easy to get big bores to shoot where you want them to shoot at 50 or 100yds.This requires skill....

POI does not change however the rifle is held.If it does it means that the shooter is not up to the skill level.I`ve been down that long road before...

This is my wisdom.The bigger you are and the worst you shoot-the worst you shoot!...

Norsk,IMO there is no chance in this world you can shoot groups offhand at 100yds like you say you do and post this amateur crap you are posting....

MacD37,I didn`t know people still smoke hash at your age....

Actually, I'm more concerned about the groups to which I am NOT seen to belong.

and only see and hear want you want to

Shootaway

Change your Name to Stupid Ass!

Michael

Shitaways reply;

Norsk,

I never noticed a difference in regulation when shooting from the bench vs shooting offhand with any of my doubles. But I have seen a slight change in elevation with two of them, possibly due to how I am shouldering the rifle.

But I'll also add that when I shoot off the bench my elbows are rested on a thick blanket and the rifle is not touching anything other than me.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
MacD37,I didn`t know people still smoke hash at your age.

Why the venom? In the first place I have never used Hash in my life, but I recognize the symptoms of the use of it in some of your posts! I said nothing about you, I only paraphrased your mention of something someone else posted believing the target indicated good regulation which it certainly is not. They believed it did, and from your post it seems you do also! It is my opinion you need to stick to making comments on rifle types you have some experience with, and leave double rifles to those who know how they work!

The post you mention by me on your ele hunt, was a request to find out if anyone knew you and why you seem to not want to make eye contact with anyone and you seem to be a little out of it in your film. I had seen some of the comments to you by other posters, and asked the posters why they made nasty remarks to you. I ended that question with “have I missed something?” to which I got a four word reply that read “you have missed something!”

Shootaway you seem to draw lightening strikes by many posters here, and that reminds me of something my father said many times in my life. He said “if you can’t get along with anyone the place to look for the reason is in the mirror!” I think you need to do just that! So far I have resisted joining in on your little war with everyone you come in contact with, and this post is simply to answer your personal comment to me, and this is my last comment to, or about you!

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,BYE Space cadet!

Mac,

Lots of class in your response above.

In relation to the original post. I find accuracy and regulation fine when off bags with rifles such as 458 and 470 BUT sometimes off hand will produce shots an inch or so higher due to different fore-end holding pressure.

Off hand at 60 paces grouping well but a bit high for my preference;

Thank-you Mike Brooks and Michael458 for the priceless entertainment,
and to most of the rest of you for the information and education.

For some, like me (a complete newbie to the double world), all of this sort of stuff can take many moons to learn the hard way..... whereas we can graft from the experienced elders amongst us and for that I am greatful.

That is some fine of hand open sights shooting @60 paces, I don’t know if I can duplicate that with a scope.

I do all my load testing from the bench with consistency and accuracy with few of my doubles, up to and including the 9.3x74R. Both of my elbows are resting on the bench and my hand on the forearm rest under the barrels, grasping them tight and pulled snugly into my shoulder.

I have not tried it with my 470 yet, I did shoot it from the sticks in the past.

Best regards

Malek
Good shooting/hunting and God's best