Malek,
I try to minimise shooting the big bores from a bench as it tends to accentuate felt recoil thus not helping with accurate shooting.
Also helps to have a well balanced rifle.
This group was from a lovely 425WR at forty paces;


And from a well fitting 458;

Shooting a double from a standing bench or sticks should help determine a good accurate load.

I know that many of us have great respect for what Graeme Wright, the author of Shooting the British Double Rifle, has to say on most subjects pertaining to regulating, reloading for and shooting double rifles. In Mr. Wright's Third Edition he discusses, among other things, the use of the Caldwell Lead Sled with doubles. Here is a little excerpt:

"This invention has been a great asset for those of us testing heavy recoiling rifles . . . When I first started using the rest I assumed it would affect the regulation of a double rifle. To my pleasant surprise this had not turned out to be the case. My idea was that I would use the rest to develop loads that seemed suitable then check the regulation without the rest. In the majority of cases the rifles regulated with same with or without the rest. I always do a final check of the regulation without the rest but normally find it does not require any further changes."

It is strange though, I am getting great lb/rb groups individually shooting off bench but horizontal spread and crossing...

This has been the case for both my Krieghoffs (500/416) and (470). I initially thought the .470 shot ok from bench but have found out it does not. Not at 100 yards at least. At up to 60 yards both my guns regulate fine from the bench.

Maybe the lead sledge influences things differently than me on the bench? Anyway it seems people have mixed experiences with regards to this.

Lead sleds??? Why buy a hard kicking rifle if you don't want to actually experience the feel of it. I see guys at the range with them and I ask them if they are going to carry that infernal contraption into the field with them. They usually just give a blank stare. On a practical note, you need to be actually holding the rifle with and reacting to, the rifle with your body as you will be under field conditions; otherwise your rifle might not regulate and will change POI as well. Elmer is turning over in his grave at this moment. For those who don't know, (and that should be none on this forum), Elmer said he wanted his rifles to kill on both ends. No lead sleds for me.

Mike,

I had a bit of a different experience with the lead sled and my Merkel 500NE. When I first got the rifle, and was working up loads for it, I found that shooting it in the sled always resulted in the impacts being about 8" low. When shooting the same loads from the shoulder on sticks, they were about 3" low. See some of my pervious posts as to how I ended up rectifying the low POI. However, the sled just made it worse.

I will agree with Graeme's statement concerning regulation however, which is more about the impact of each barrel in relation to the other, the sled did not seem to affect that as the gun typically placed both bullets about an inch apart at 25 yards, with the left barrel being just slightly lower than the right on about a 45 degree angle.

To be clear, I am not advocating the use of lead sleds. I worry less about a lead sled's impact on regulation and more about their impact on stocks. I was simply pointing out that someone respected in the use of doubles that has both used a lead sled and shot off hand indicated that it had no impact on regulation. Your mileage may vary. Advertised price does not necessarily reflect dealer cost. Past performance is not an indicator of future success. Blah blah.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
that it had no impact on regulation. Your mileage may vary. Advertised price does not necessarily reflect dealer cost. Past performance is not an indicator of future success. Blah blah.

WOW,, With all that boiler plate ,,, you must be a lawyer!

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
To be clear, I am not advocating the use of lead sleds. I worry less about a lead sled's impact on regulation and more about their impact on stocks. I was simply pointing out that someone respected in the use of doubles that has both used a lead sled and shot off hand indicated that it had no impact on regulation. Your mileage may vary. Advertised price does not necessarily reflect dealer cost. Past performance is not an indicator of future success. Blah blah.

I also am not advocating use of the lead sled with a double and only used it when I was very new to doubles. At this point, I would not shoot any of my doubles on the sled as I think it ousts excess strain on the stock. As MJ (no, not the King of Pop. ) said above, YMMV and that other legal stuff!!

Like the two posters before me (Mike & Todd) I do not recommend using the lead sled on very hard recoiling double rifles for the same reasons Mike stated. The led sled puts a lot of strain on the wrist and lock area of the stock of a double rifle because of the way it recoils naturally.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Lead sleds??? Why buy a hard kicking rifle if you don't want to actually experience the feel of it. I see guys at the range with them and I ask them if they are going to carry that infernal contraption into the field with them.

Having said that to answer dpcd’s question above!

I don't think anyone here is afraid of the recoil! The fact is however heavy recoil causes development of a flinch when multiple shots are fired from a bench like when several shots are taken to find a regulating load. One never feels recoil in the field when shooting at dangerous game, but a flinch developed at the bench may rear its ugly head at the wrong time in the field. It is far better to not develop a flinch that to try to overcome once developed.

This is the reason we recommend a standing bench for load development in a big bore double rifle. The felt recoil is more like that felt in the field. Even this can be moderated without damaging the rifle’s stock. A canvas bag with a long shoulder strap can be filled with sand bags, and place the shoulder strap between the butt stock, and your shoulder and push the bag away from yourself on the bench. When the rifle is fired the rifle recoils in the normal manner but places no strain on the butt stock of the rifle.

The lead sled places the butt of the rifle between two uprights so the rifle can’t TWIST! A double rifle is designed to recoil up and away from the other barrel at about a 30 degree angle on firing. The sled tries to hold the stock upright causing strain on the hollow are of the stock that houses the locks. The bag & belt doesn’t do that and accomplishes the same benefit of not developing a flinch from working up loads all day.
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quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:
Malek,
I try to minimise shooting the big bores from a bench as it tends to accentuate felt recoil thus not helping with accurate shooting.
Also helps to have a well balanced rifle.
This group was from a lovely 425WR at forty paces;


And from a well fitting 458;

Shooting a double from a standing bench or sticks should help determine a good accurate load.

I must say these are excellent groups; you have to be very comfortable with your rifle and stance to be able to obtain such satisfying results.

As I mentioned earlier on I did not shoot my 470 from the bench and I don't think I will do it in the future.

Back in the eighties I used to bench my 458WM but then things were quite a bit different.

Best regards

Malek
Good shooting/hunting and God's best

Just for what its worth I have noticed a huge difference in regulation between being baged in on the bench and shooting from a standing rest with my O/U Merkel 8x57. For what ever reason there is less change with my Ferlach .338 but still enough to be noticed.
I also found that if I shoot from the bench my body upright with an elevated rest it is the same as shooting offhand.

quote:

Originally posted by Akshooter:
Just for what its worth I have noticed a huge difference in regulation between being baged in on the bench and shooting from a standing rest with my O/U Merkel 8x57. For what ever reason there is less change with my Ferlach .338 but still enough to be noticed.
I also found that if I shoot from the bench my body upright with an elevated rest it is the same as shooting offhand.

AKshooter #1 are both your doubles O/Us, and do they weigh differently by a large margin?

And #2 are these rifle resting dirretly on the sand bags?

My .470 definately shoots better offhand than from bench (or I shoot it better that way). 6 shot 80 yard group at 2 inches (1 inch vertical, 2 inch horizontal spread) this saturday. Off bench I am getting 5 inch groups (horizontal spread). The bench I am shooting from is pretty low and I am leaning down into the gun (not upright body)...

That's got to be a good thing if you intend on using it for what it was made for..

An interesting tid-bit that's not nessesarily germane, but close enough and indicative of a well regulated double:

I was reloading some practice ammo for my 450NE, when I discovered I had some 480gr Woodleighs but with the cannelure set lower to accomodate 458 Magazine rifles. My rifle regulates extremely well with the regular Woodleighs, CEB Non-Cons,and of course Hornday factory loads, so I decided to try a few. No problem getting 1"@50 yards with them, perfectly horizontal spread. I was a little worried about maybe having too much space between the powder and bullet base (about 1/4") but the rifle shot very well with no issues...that I could see anyway. Just goes to show you a well-regulated rifle is not that difficult to work with even if you don't use the regulation loads. jorge

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
An interesting tid-bit that's not nessesarily germane, but close enough and indicative of a well regulated double:

I was reloading some practice ammo for my 450NE, when I discovered I had some 480gr Woodleighs but with the cannelure set lower to accomodate 458 Magazine rifles. My rifle regulates extremely well with the regular Woodleighs, CEB Non-Cons,and of course Hornday factory loads, so I decided to try a few. No problem getting 1"@50 yards with them, perfectly horizontal spread. I was a little worried about maybe having too much space between the powder and bullet base (about 1/4") but the rifle shot very well with no issues...that I could see anyway. Just goes to show you a well-regulated rifle is not that difficult to work with even if you don't use the regulation loads. jorge

Jorge that is no surprise! 1/4 inch air space will never effect regulation in a 450NE double rifle! Filler is not needed. My loads in my 470NE double which is a lot larger powder capacity than the 450NE case and with H-4831sc the air space is more pronounced and the rifle still regulates fine. NOW with RL-15 there is a little more airspace with a full load does effect regulation and even will sometimes cause hang fires without filler. In that case the column of air space in the case between the powder and the bullet base is almost 3/4 inch.

With 1/4 inch of airspace there is no position you could hold the rifle that would give you a "FLASH OVER" which is what causes the erratic ignition, and pressure spikes that destroy regulation and/or chamber ringing.

If you pull the bullet from most rounds of factory ammo regardless of cartridge the airspace in the case will be about 1/4 inch with no filler, and all seem to shoot fine.

I'm glad you are getting such good results from your loading for your new double! congratulations Sir.

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Mac
The .338 is SXS, Only a little heavier. I have a bulls bag so when I said baged in I mean the gun was laying in the bag so I could hold it down under recoil.
When I've shot from a bench in an upright position or from a standing bench, ( we are lucky to have one at our range) I rest the forarm on my hand.

Thanks, Mac but what I was really referring to was the substantial difference in OAL between the lowered cannelured 458 and the one designed for the NE which is much higher up the ogive. At first I was a bit concerned the OAL might casuse some issues, but when comapared to a CEB solid, the longer OAL 458 was not an issue. I'll post pics later and you know what? the longer bullet "looks cooler"