I have to say that I have had exactly the opposite experience as Josh. Several months ago I bought a used Krieghoff .500/.416 from our friend GarBy. He gave me the regulation load that he used that he had gotten from Krieghoff, 108 grains or H1000 and a 410 Woodleigh (actually Krieghoff had said 109 grains but Gary thought 108 grains grouped a little better). The first time I went to the range with that load, I shot it from a tripod. The first two shots were literally in the same hole! I have been to the range a number to times with the gun and was back again tonight. Shooting from the bench at 50 yards like you guys told me with my left hand resting under the forearm and my hand resting on the bags, the two shots from the right barrel were touching. The first shot from the left barrel was about one to one and half inches left. I pulled the last shot with the left barrel and it was just slightly further away and above the other left. These loads are running at a chronographed velocity between 2300 and 2350 fps from a 23.5 inch barrel! I want to add that this was all done with a pair of sixty-one year old eyes that just aren't the best anymore. THIS THING SHOOTS LIKE IT HAD EYES! Gary, I LOVE THIS GUN. YOU DID ME A REAL SOLID GUY!!!

Yeah, I bet Josh could fix your problems with that DR in fifteen minutes!!

Rich
Buff Killer

My 470 K gun is also very accurate.

Dave, good shooting.


Guys do not be so hard on Josh A.

He is typical of a technical Bolt Rifle shooter that gets his first double.

He will eventually come around, or sell all his doubles and go back to Bolt Rifle Trash.

I have several friends that went through the same stage he is in now.

The one thing I did notice about this double the the others I have shot is the triggers. I don't know if it is the combi-cocking system or something that is just common to doubles but I think that a in most instances, the triggers on my bolt rifles are better than the triggers on the doubles I have had the chance to shoot but then again, most of the triggers on my bolts have been tuned up a bit.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
I have several friends that went through the same stage he is in now.

"If heart is empty, head doesn't matter", a short trip into bush with DG around will fix the heart problem

I have owned a bunch of double rifles, among them:
Lyon & Lyon .450/400 3 1/4"
2 Cogswell & Harrison's (.475 3 1/4" and .375 Express)
3 Searcy's (.450/400 3" and .470 N.E.)
Merkel 141(e) 9.3x74
Westley Richards .450/400 3 1/4"
and some others

I reload

Finally, since Hornady makes decent ammo for a decent price, I've decided to just use factory ammo and avoid problems (self-induced, ususally) in the foreseeable future. My Merkel will shoot any factory ammo after being regulated (a ten minute process). My forthcoming .450 N.E. Searcy will be regulated with Hornady loads (of which I will buy a zillion boxes in case I live to be 100 and Hornady folds)....

Just a way to to make my life simpler so that I can concentrate on my new 18 year-old girlfriend and afford those little purple pills.



And if I sell you a double rifle, particularly an older one, I'll invite you to my home, let you inspect it, the loads I use and take you to the range to shoot it. You're grown. You make an informed decision.... and that way, you get to live with it.

quote:

Originally posted by JudgeG:
I have owned a bunch of double rifles, among them:
Lyon & Lyon .450/400 3 1/4"
2 Cogswell & Harrison's (.475 3 1/4" and .375 Express)
3 Searcy's (.450/400 3" and .470 N.E.)
Merkel 141(e) 9.3x74
Westley Richards .450/400 3 1/4"
and some others

I reload

Finally, since Hornady makes decent ammo for a decent price, I've decided to just use factory ammo and avoid problems (self-induced, ususally) in the foreseeable future. My Merkel will shoot any factory ammo after being regulated (a ten minute process). My forthcoming .450 N.E. Searcy will be regulated with Hornady loads (of which I will buy a zillion boxes in case I live to be 100 and Hornady folds)....

Just a way to to make my life simpler so that I can concentrate on my new 18 year-old girlfriend and afford those little purple pills.



And if I sell you a double rifle, particularly an older one, I'll invite you to my home, let you inspect it, the loads I use and take you to the range to shoot it. You're grown. You make an informed decision.... and that way, you get to live with it.

Judge,
When I come to your house to inspect the double do I get to take your new girlfriend for a test ride too?

Call me!

quote:

Originally posted by JBoutfishn:
My 470 K gun is also very accurate.

As was my .500.

Mine are blue. Where'd you get the purple ones?


Dutch

Guys, the other thing I learned about double rifles here on AR is that Barnes banded solids are made buy the tortured souls of Ted Bundy and John Wayne Gacy on a firey lathe in the seventh cirle of hell and delivered to a gun store near you by Lucifer himself.

Roscoe,
I think the Judge missed a zero,it's not 18,it's 180,he would'nt survive the recoil from an 18 yr old

quote:

Originally posted by ROSCOE:

quote:

Originally posted by JudgeG:
I have owned a bunch of double rifles, among them:
Lyon & Lyon .450/400 3 1/4"
2 Cogswell & Harrison's (.475 3 1/4" and .375 Express)
3 Searcy's (.450/400 3" and .470 N.E.)
Merkel 141(e) 9.3x74
Westley Richards .450/400 3 1/4"
and some others

I reload

Finally, since Hornady makes decent ammo for a decent price, I've decided to just use factory ammo and avoid problems (self-induced, ususally) in the foreseeable future. My Merkel will shoot any factory ammo after being regulated (a ten minute process). My forthcoming .450 N.E. Searcy will be regulated with Hornady loads (of which I will buy a zillion boxes in case I live to be 100 and Hornady folds)....

Just a way to to make my life simpler so that I can concentrate on my new 18 year-old girlfriend and afford those little purple pills.



And if I sell you a double rifle, particularly an older one, I'll invite you to my home, let you inspect it, the loads I use and take you to the range to shoot it. You're grown. You make an informed decision.... and that way, you get to live with it.

Judge,
When I come to your house to inspect the double do I get to take your new girlfriend for a test ride too?

Call me!

Ever K-gun I ever fired was very accurate. I knew a chap that had one in a 375 flanged, that little gem was a "gin-u-wine" one-hole"er".

Ed

quote:

Originally posted by Bill73:
Roscoe,
I think the Judge missed a zero,it's not 18,it's 180,he would'nt survive the recoil from an 18 yr old

quote:

Originally posted by ROSCOE:

quote:

Originally posted by JudgeG:
I have owned a bunch of double rifles, among them:
Lyon & Lyon .450/400 3 1/4"
2 Cogswell & Harrison's (.475 3 1/4" and .375 Express)
3 Searcy's (.450/400 3" and .470 N.E.)
Merkel 141(e) 9.3x74
Westley Richards .450/400 3 1/4"
and some others

I reload

Finally, since Hornady makes decent ammo for a decent price, I've decided to just use factory ammo and avoid problems (self-induced, ususally) in the foreseeable future. My Merkel will shoot any factory ammo after being regulated (a ten minute process). My forthcoming .450 N.E. Searcy will be regulated with Hornady loads (of which I will buy a zillion boxes in case I live to be 100 and Hornady folds)....

Just a way to to make my life simpler so that I can concentrate on my new 18 year-old girlfriend and afford those little purple pills.



And if I sell you a double rifle, particularly an older one, I'll invite you to my home, let you inspect it, the loads I use and take you to the range to shoot it. You're grown. You make an informed decision.... and that way, you get to live with it.

Judge,
When I come to your house to inspect the double do I get to take your new girlfriend for a test ride too?

Call me!

At present, I only have the Merkel 141(e) and a Baikal .308 o/u. The Searcy .450 N.E. should arrive before August 1st.

And I actually use little peach colored pills that the V.A. provides???? and she's not 18 but a bit older... Best picture I could do with a cell phone camera???

Wow! Ernest! You need to bring that beauty to Dallas!

Better living, through Chemistry! A worthwhile motto! Pink works for me!

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Guys, the other thing I learned about double rifles here on AR is that Barnes banded solids are made buy the tortured souls of Ted Bundy and John Wayne Gacy on a firey lathe in the seventh cirle of hell and delivered to a gun store near you by Lucifer himself.

Dave here are some quotes from Gregor Woods book RIFLES for AFRICAwhere he quotes Graeme Wright's book Shooting the Brittish Double Rifle On the use of hard bullets in double rifles! Enjoy!



“There is also the potential problem of damage to the barrel steel caused by the use of modern hard bullets. In his book SHOOTING THE BRITISH DOUBLE RIFLE (second edition) Graeme Wright devotes a full chapter to this phenomenon. Owners and would-be owners of double rifles would do well to read it. The damage can take two forms, the first of which Wright refers to is “OVERSTRESSED RIFLING”. “ Page 371 RIFLES for AFRICA, by Gregor Woods

“Overstressing , can occur in both old, and newly made doubles, but is much less likely in newer barrels. In savere cases the barrels can separate from the ribs, splitting the solder joints,and the barrels can even bend. Damage from overstressed barrels can be repaired, but at vey high cost!” Also page 371


“The worst offenders will be the homogeneous bullets that are lath turned from solid brass, copper, or similar alloys,and homogeneous expanding bullets made intirely or partially copper or brass (by “partially” I mean having a lead core front and a solid copper, or Brass shank).” Pg 371 third paragraph! From RIFLES for AFRICA, Double rifle chapter A quote from Gramme Wright’s book SHOOTING THE BRITISH DOUBLE RIFLE.


“ Obviously, there are variables. The longer bearing surface of the bullet, the greater the stress on the rifleing., so, in a given caliber , all else being equal, heavier bullets will be worse offenders than lighter bullets. Even among recently made doubles, some barrels are softer than others ( the same will apply among older rifles) Likewise barrel wall thickness will vary from rifle to rifle, and not all barrels of a given nominal caliber have identical bore diameters, some are tighter than others. The severity of will depend on which combinations of these variables come into play. Logically, a worst-case scenario would be a very old double rifle (say early 1900s vintage) with very thin barrels of relatively soft steel and slightly undersized bores, being fired with modern ammunition loaded with the heavy-for-caliber , homogenous bullets, lathe turned from solid brass. On the other hand, the following rifle is unlikely to be affected: a recentlymade double with thicker barrels made from the best of modern steel, bored to diameters of correct specification, fireing ammunation loaded with, say, Swift A-Frame ( copper-partitioned lead core) bullets. Acording to Wright,, none of the current LONDON gun makers recommends any hard bullets for use in their doubles.

The second form of damage is that of the barrel it’sself splitting open, even though no obstruction in the bore was involved. So far, all known cases have involved rifles made prior to WWII. Typically The split runs from the tip of the fore-end all the way to the muzzle.Such cases are rare: Wright, knows of only one in Australia (though he admits that homogeneous bullets are seldom used in that country). He knows of three or four cases in Europe and a “small number” in America. I know of no such cases in Southern Africa, but when in Germany, I visited gun-maker HARTMAN & WEISS, who showed me an old Manton .470 double whose right barrel split from a few inches ahead of the chambers to the muzzle. The damage occurred on premises when they test fired it with Federal factory ammunition loaded with TROPHY BONDED BEAR CLAW bullets." end quotes

The data that Graeme was opperating under was before the pressure rings came out to relieve some of the resistance to engrave the bearing surface of the mono-metal bullets, however even the pressure rings must be cut properly, or they solve nothing!

...........................................

Judge,my friend you are one lucky man,she's more than you deserve you old Lion you ,wish both of you happiness in the times to come

quote:

Originally posted by JudgeG:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill73:
Roscoe,
I think the Judge missed a zero,it's not 18,it's 180,he would'nt survive the recoil from an 18 yr old

quote:

Originally posted by ROSCOE:

quote:

Originally posted by JudgeG:
I have owned a bunch of double rifles, among them:
Lyon & Lyon .450/400 3 1/4"
2 Cogswell & Harrison's (.475 3 1/4" and .375 Express)
3 Searcy's (.450/400 3" and .470 N.E.)
Merkel 141(e) 9.3x74
Westley Richards .450/400 3 1/4"
and some others

I reload

Finally, since Hornady makes decent ammo for a decent price, I've decided to just use factory ammo and avoid problems (self-induced, ususally) in the foreseeable future. My Merkel will shoot any factory ammo after being regulated (a ten minute process). My forthcoming .450 N.E. Searcy will be regulated with Hornady loads (of which I will buy a zillion boxes in case I live to be 100 and Hornady folds)....

Just a way to to make my life simpler so that I can concentrate on my new 18 year-old girlfriend and afford those little purple pills.



And if I sell you a double rifle, particularly an older one, I'll invite you to my home, let you inspect it, the loads I use and take you to the range to shoot it. You're grown. You make an informed decision.... and that way, you get to live with it.

Judge,
When I come to your house to inspect the double do I get to take your new girlfriend for a test ride too?

Call me!

At present, I only have the Merkel 141(e) and a Baikal .308 o/u. The Searcy .450 N.E. should arrive before August 1st.

And I actually use little peach colored pills that the V.A. provides???? and she's not 18 but a bit older... Best picture I could do with a cell phone camera???

Well I am not going to worship at the altar of Josh A. I have 3 doubles all bought used and I developed loads for all of them without any problems. You just have to listen to advice AND follow your own experience. For example, my Kreighoff in 500/416 uses the exact same load with and without a scope. Developing loads for a big bore double is not an inexpensive proposition, so one has to know when to stop! The only exception to the above is my Tikka 512SD in 9.3x74R which developed inconsistent groups while developing loads for it. Upon examination, I discovered that the adjustment ramp had become separated from the upper barrel. Once I had this resoldered, voila, load development/regulation was straightforward.
Dave Bush, you should find that your K gun is even more accurate with a scope!
Peter.

my spartan 45/70 is less than 2 moa, easy, with nearly any load want to shoot in it.

LOL .. i know, annoying

JudgeG Very SWEET.

quote:

And I actually use little peach colored pills that the V.A. provides

Hold on a minute. You mean my tax dollars are being spent so you can get a woody?!!!!!
Peter.

quote:

Hold on a minute. You mean my tax dollars are being spent so you can get a woody?!!!!!

What did you think Obama was talking about when he said our tax dollars were going towards a " stimulus package"

quote:

Originally posted by Akshooter:

quote:

Hold on a minute. You mean my tax dollars are being spent so you can get a woody?!!!!!

What did you think Obama was talking about when he said our tax dollars were going towards a " stimulus package"

NE450n2, you have made several false assumptions about me. I do not come from a bolt rifle back ground. If anything I come from a hunting background. I have shot single shots since high school and my current all-arounder is a Martini-Hagn 300.

I spent the last 5 years or so competing in BPCR silhouette with Sharps rifles and have hunted with them extensively.

I am frankly surprised about the amount of idle wind that gets spewed here. There are a few knowledgeable guys here and lots of me-too guys. So a used Heym rifle strokes out a firing pin and the notion that the rifle is not perfect drives a half-dozen or so here over the edge. Why is it so maddening to you? There is no magic in a double rifle. A few quirks maybe. Other than that there are good ones and ones with flaws. So a Heym has a flaw and a Searcy is in on an elephant kill. What gives?

I dunno.

j

Josh

I was taking up for you.

A Hagn Single Shot is a very fine rifle.

Still it is not a double. Most all people that have not hunted with a double do not "get" them at first.

This seems especially so the more technical a shooter the hunter is.

Most Americans can shoot a group at 100 yards at or under one inch, yet could not kill a deer standing at 50.

Not saying you are in this catagory, as Silhouette shooters Black powder or High power shoot more off hand than most.


I was not making negative statements about YOU personally, but single barrel hunters, even my close personal friends, just do not get double rifles until they hunt and kill some game with them.

hey josh,

tell them how much money you have and how famous you are in BPCR again, that'll work!
I'm still looking for you in the winners lists at Raton...

Rich
DRSS

Gosh Idaho its good to hear from you again. Are you still living in your Mom's basement with your cat? Nice to see that you have time to do a little typing in-between your "other" internet adventures.

Take care,
j