quote:

Originally posted by tomo577:
how many riflemakers built 500/416- and more to the point - how many rifles total in that caliber did they make ? DAMN FEW !

heym, champuis, kreighoff, searcy, and and blazer.. Question - how many of those offer a 577 NE OR a 450NE as a STANDARD caliber.. 1 does. the 500/416 is actually the best rimmed round in 50 years.

quote:

....


there is darn little a 450/400 can do that cannot be done just as well by the 375. and the 450/400 can't do all a 470 can..

I disagree. the 375 flanged is not a 375HH BELTED, and there's little real difference between that and a 9,3x74 .. REAL difference. The 450/400 is a 404 jeffe in a double rifle. it can kill anything with good shot placement

quote:

so the final answer to the initial question is

YES, YOU MADE A MISTAKE IN THE CALIBERS.

Incorrect ... Tom, he's not spending your money. He's spending his. He shoots a 404 very well, and has double guns.

Would these be my choices... Not really, but it's not MY money.

my choice would be a 500/416 regulated at 2250, 9.5# and a set of 12ga barrels.

tom's choice would be something heavier...

but that's leonard's choice, and he's tossing the idea around.

Dang few people can shoot a 450 as well as they can a 450/400, and, let's be honest, a 22 in the eye is better than a 700 hh in the dirt.

jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by dirklawyer:
I would agree with 500 grains, the calibers are excellent but quite close in performance with the 450-400 or 375 being a great one gun show in Africa. I would choose the 375 and the 470 for a covering the spectum better, and put a scope on the 375.

Ditto that. Bottom line though, if you are comfortable with the .450/.400 and feel that a 470 would be pushing it, stick with the .450/.400. I just think a .470 would give you that little extra ump that folks frequently mention when they speak of wishing that they had a bit more rifle in sticky situations.

lb404,

give Butch a call and ask him about the 9.5x74 he built for Dave at CH4D. 270gr Speer at 2460fps.

Rich

Jim,
you are thinking about length (of time) of pull...something ENTIRELY different!!


Rich
DRSS

400 Nitro Express,

The quotes I lifted are from every part of Taylor's book, including his summations, just look at the page citations. There is no one summation, he had one for each game animal and then an "Ideal Battery" chapter and an "Odds and Ends" chapter amoungst a few others.

As I mentioned in my thread, which is in response to a couple of post by 465 in another thread, Taylor thought the 450/400 was enough gun. But its clear as hell he thought the 450 range was better, for everything dangerous.

I'm sure that the fellows who have used the 450/400's on elephants have no complaints, but then how many have they shot; how many buff for that matter? How many have they shot with more or less rifle? Taylor is pretty clear that he considers the 450/400 enough gun, but again he is clear that its no match to the 450 range rifles. BTW, how many elephants or buff has Butch shot? How 'bout you?

I didn't recite the number of times he used his KO figures in a manner which would have left the 450/400's wanting since he frequently used a KO value of 50 while the 450/400's come in at 48 or so, barely below. He also used 40 as a bare minimum which makes the 375H&H fit in too.

BTW, in my version of this book, copy right 1993, there is no chapter on the 450/400's.

Its not my money and not my rifle so its not my choice, but I have an opinion based on some experience and supported by Taylor and others, and I answer the man's question based on my experience which corroborates Taylor's advise and that of others. Hoe 'bout you?

I'll repeat it here: If you even think you will be hunting a number of elephants, go with a 375 FM and a 450 3 1/4" NE. Same case head as a 450/400 so same slim action choice and a new legue of performance, so says John Taylor and my experience is right in line with what he says and recomends. But use North Fork flat nose solids and move into another new legue!

JPK

JPK, I agree the 450/400NE is not the end all in dangerous game cartridges, and the one cartridge I love nearly as much as the 450/400NE is the 450NE 3 1/4". You are right as well that it is the same cartridge case dia, and so the action is the same for the 450NE.
For every plus you can name for the 450NE 3 1/4" class, I can counter with a trade off for the 450/400NE. There is simply not a whit of difference in the killing power between them. Addtionally, I find the 450NE, and the 450/400 J to be better choice than the 470NE! That may sound like a dumb statement, untill you see that the recovery time to get back on target, with the 470NE is far longer than with a 450/400NE, and the recoil is less, makeing the 400 easier to shoot well, even easier than the 450NE 3.25", and the 470NE will do nothing that the 450NE will not do as well, or better considering the recovery time. A CNS shot from any of them is immediately deadly, and a body shot is no better with the 470, than the other two. The only possible advantage the 470NE has over the 450NE, and a little more over the 450/400, is when contacting very large bone, otherwise, they all kill fine. Large animals do not succumb to shock, like plains game,so one must go all the way to the 500NE and up to get the knock out from a missed brain shot.

The place the 450NE 3.25" has a great advantage,over the 450/400, and the 470NE, is in it's bullet diameter! Being a .458 dia, it has a vast choice of good cheap bullets, right off the shelf of any gun shop, and since the NE rounds are by necessity a handloading proposition, factory ammo is not an advantage, except for brass! Few doubles regulate properly with factory stough anyway, and to get the best from any of them, one must work up good handloads.

In the final analysis, they are all good, and I doubt the client hunter will ever see the difference, except to his shoulder, and his pocketbook, for componants!

John,

A couple of things to keep in mind about Taylor. First, a lot of his comments and preferences were driven by bullet performance. In his day, one acquired bullets from the rifle maker. And the high end makers had great incentive to insure that their customers did not end up chewed, clawed or stomped. Hence his glowing comments regarding the 465 H&H and rather likewarm comments with respect to the 470. And his total disdain for the 10mm or any cartridge of German manufacture.

Second, his KO values were very limited - a specific type of bullet on a frontal brain shot on an elephant. And based on the experiences of many here on AR, I have gathered that most have not found that a close shot missing the brain knocks an elephant out cold.

And with statements like this:

"For years, prior to the introduction of the .375 magnum, this rifle had the reputation of being the weapon which most nearly met all requirements for general, all-around, big game hunting...I have used it extensively and used to swear by it - I still do. Throughout the length and breadth of Africa, I cannot remember ever hearing a man say a word against it. It is undoubtedly one of the most popular cartridges that has ever been placed on the market for general all-around big game hunting. The solid bullet is excellent for elephant and rhino; with a solid in one barrel and a soft-nosed with lead just showing at the tip in the other, it is splendidly effective on buffalo; while with soft-nosed bullets having plenty of lead showing at the nose, it is very deadly on lion; for non-dangerous game, soft-nosed and soft-nosed-split bullets are used with great satisfaction on all but the smallest varieties...I can also say, and say it with emphasis, that the .400 is an eminently safe, sound, and splendidly satisfactory weapon to take against all dangerous game anywhere."

And this posted in another thread by Tony:

From "African Rifles and Cartridges" by John Taylor, p.115

"For some reason I find it difficult to explain I derived greater pleasure from using the .400 than any other caliber; and no weapon behaved more successfully in my hands. There is something about the double .400 that just seems to suit me. I would happily finish the rest of my career with a pair of them and nothing else- unless it was a third, just to give me a set of three.

I don't think it is clear at all that he preferred larger bores to the 450/400.

My read on Taylor that he preferred the 450 and up class on elephants only, and then only because he was in the business of harvesting ivory for a living. A lot of it as a poacher. That plus his love affair with H&H. For him, the bigger bore was more for insurance purposes than anything else. I can find no reference to his recommendation of the bigger bores for all dangerous game.

There is also the matter of recoil to consider. I have shot the 450/400, Tony's 450#2, and the 470. The 400 is relatively mild. The 450 a step up and the 470 a step up from that.

With that said, I personally have shot no elephants yet. So insofar as personal experience with elephants go, I have none. But I know plenty of people that have such experience.

By the way, my own double is a 470, not a 450/400. That selection was entirely a matter of personal preference. I like the idea of the added power. And the "insurance".

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
There is no one summation,

Yes, there is.

Chapter XII, A Summing Up, pages 299-300:

"For (c) Large bores throwing heavy bullets for heavy game and dangerous animals such as are shot at close quarters usually in thick cover."

"Auctor: Well, that seems clear enough. And now your own personal choice for the different groups."

"I would like to add that I would be just as happy with a .400 as a .465 for class (c)...."

And that's what he had to say.

I dare say that there are few here who have not read Taylor's book, and you seem to be the only one to come away from it with the view that Taylor didn't think the .400 was the bee's knees for ALL heavy game.

You're just twisting words. You must be a lawyer.
------------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Mac, Jim, 400,

First, Taylor is right that you can knock down and knock out an elephant with a missed brain shot. I have done it three times. I knocked another down but not out as well. Another time I killed one with a close miss.

Shoot enough elephants or watch enough being shot, like on Buzz Charlton's video, and you can ussually tell if the brain shot was perfect or just off. I have autopsied several of the elephants I have suspected were close misses but which dropped to the shot. On a couple it seemed that they didn't drop as a brained elephant should but we came to the conclusion that the bottom rear of the brain had been hit, on others the brain was missed close but the elephant dropped. Since virtually every elephant gets an insurance shot you need to cut opens their heads to be sure. Something I've done a couple of times.

Second, this recoil recovery issue is way overblown. Practice makes recoil tolerable, shooting at DG makes it imperceptible. Recovery at the range is very different than recovery in the feild. With my rifle, which is a 458 weighing 10 1/2lbs and pushing a 500gr Woodleigh at 2135fps or a 450gr North Fork at 2190fps, recoil in the feild is nothing, barely enough to know the rifle has fired. Recovery is very nearly instantaneous, and its on DVD to prove it. You will probably get to see it in an upcoming Buzz Charlton video.

Did recoil start this way for me? HELL NO! It took some shooting to get there. Its just a matter of practice, which someone hunting DG should be doing anyway. If I lay off for a couple of months I need to re-acclimate but it only takes two or three days of shooting to do it.

Third, regarding Taylor and the 450 or 465 vs 470, Taylor much prefered the 450 or 465 to the 470. The reason was the bullet shape. He concluded, without digging bullets but based on hundreds of elephants shot, that the more hemishperical shape of the 450 and 465 bullets tracked truer in elephant heads than the more pointy shape of the 470 bullets.

Fourth, I'm aware of Taylor's frequent comments, paraphrased here as, "...oh yea, and the 450/400 will do the job too...", or "...you'll also be happy with a 450/400..." But he hunted with and relied on bigger rifles. And again and again repeates, "...using a bullet of no less than 480 or 500 grains..." Or even, "...no less than 400 grains...", indicating the 450/400 as a minimum round.

When it came time to hunt, Taylor relied on 450 class rifles; that fact is unmistakable. Its a little contradictory to claim that Taylor felt the 450/400 was "the bee's knees" when he prefered using more rifle. Taylor was a bit contradictory here too, since he relied on the 450 class rifles while giving the nod to the 450/400's.

400,

I will read the section you cite tonight, I am at my office and don't have the book.

JPK

400,

Just caught the last sentance of your post and it made me laugh.

First, You know that I think you are the one twisting words or at least ignoring the facts that when push came to shove Taylor was holding a 450 class rifle in his hands, and that there is just no way a 400 grain bullet moving slower than a 480 or 500 grain bullet hits as hard with as much effect.

Still, I am an attorney though I have never practiced law. I graduated law school at the age of 35, passed the bar and have maintained my membership since then. I am a turn around specialist of sorts and make my living turning unprofitable and poorly managed companies into industry leading performers.

In short the only thing that counts in my world is bottom line performance!

JPK

quote:

no way a 400 grain bullet moving slower than a 480 or 500 grain bullet hits as hard with as much effect.

As I am sure you have found from your autopsies, the .408-.411 400 grain bullets are much better penetrators than their .458 cousins.

The beauty of the .408-.411 is that you get a nice long bullet that does not require a heck of a lot of velocity as the .458 does to penetrate!

quote:

I am a turn around specialist of sorts and make my living turning unprofitable and poorly managed companies into industry leading performers.

I am glad to see you have found your calling!

JPK
I think this thing is going down hill, fast, when it shouldn't be! We've all read Mr. Taylor's book, and the quotes posted are all in the book. I think this is simply a matter of who likes what, so that he reads it the way it suits him best. There is nothing wrong with that concept, because that is why we enjoy books in the first place! Certainly we enjoy books more that follow our own opinions, and likes best.

The absolute fact is all three of the cartridges mentioned in this DISCUSSION, are quite adiquate for anything including Elephant. SO...........IMO, ye Takes yer pick, and shoots yore elephant!

The problem here is,IMO, basicly, that the only thing that you are considering is shooting elephant! That was not the origenal question posted by the owner of this string. This is the reason the 450/400 NE 3" and the 375 H&H flanged was called a good pair. It is clear, this rifle may never be used for elephant hunting, but is a much better choice for general hunting than the larger cartridges. When the rifle may take ONE ele, in a life time, and the bigest thing it will be used for generally, is cape Buffalo, and will be used in the USA, far more than in Africa, the 450/400NE 3" makes a very good choice. Even in Africa, no matter which set of barrels that happen to be on the rifle in question, at any given time, the chance shot at a 58" Kudu, at 200 yds, is far more likely to be taken, with a 450/400NE or a 375H&H flanged than with a 450NE, or 470NE. That was the answer he was looking for, I think.

Like you, I use a 470NE,double, and would rather have a 500NE for my large. While mine is paired with a seperate double chambered for 9.3X74R, and I have no trouble takeing long shots with the 470NE, but the average guy doesn't shoot the heavier doubles like you and I, so recoil is a factor! Seasoned, or not, the recovery time is longer, for recovery, with heavy hitter, than with a light recoiling double, no matter how seasoned, you are to recoil. If YOU can recover quickly from your 450NE, YOU can recover quicker with a 450/400NE. That is a simple fact of physics. That is what I meant by the recovery time being less with a lighter recoiling rifle, is the same person shooting a heavy recoiling rifle will naturally recover from that recoil in less time with a lighter recoiling rifle. If that weren't the case then you would recover from shooting a ,577NE in the same time it takes to recover from a .22 lr. Admittedly, that is an extreme example, but the principle is the same.

This post is not to call anyone wrong, or to say I'm 100 % either, but to simply clarify why I said the combination of barrels was a good one, when the actual use of the rifle is considered. This is takeing into consideration the fact that only a few of the huntreds of Americans who go on Safari, will ever shoot even one elephant, and most will shoot no more than a few buffalo, and IMO, with that in mind the one double rifle with two sets of barrels consisting of a pair of 450/400NE 3", and a set of scoped 375 H&H flanged barrels is a good choice. It isn't the only choice, but a good one! As both can handle both ends of a safari if one goes south, or no matter which is in your hand at any given time!

Rusty,

I haven't recovered any bullets fire from a 450/400 but the one Woodleigh I recovered fired from a 416 Rigby did penetrate well. So did a Woodleigh fired from a 470 at 2250fps, but not as well as my North Forks at 2190fps.(All three alot better than my Woodleighs at 2135fps.)

Penetration is important, but it is only a part of the equation. IMO, when you have more than sufficient penetration you want more impact effect. This comes with more bullet, only. You will pay a higher price in weight/recoil trade off but you need both, imo.

Mac,

IMO all of the reason you give regarding the rifle's use on everything other than buff or elephants is made true with the 375 barrels, and the 375 barrels are suitable for both of those too. That is why the other set ought to be more ideal for both elephants and buffalo, or lion on the follow up. The 450 is more suitable for either, especially elephants.

I don't wholy agree with your recoil theory, at least in practice. For example, imo, if you recover nearly instantaneously with a 400 or a 450, you should use the 450. If there is a time difference, and up to some individual point I don't think there is, it is so small that it is insignificant.

Beyond that point when time recovery between the two cartridges opens up - say a 400 vs a 577 - and becomes significant then its a cost benefit analysis. Adequate practice with a heavy recoiling rifle will bring the point where recovery lags to a higher and higher recoil level, but at some point it really is physics. Not at the 450 level though.

I'm sure you have had the same experience that I have with recoil: A 30-06 produces a hell of alot of recoil when its your big rifle til you become accustomed to it...a 375 does too until you become accustomed...a XXX...then you find the 30-06 is a pussy cat, gee and so is a 375...and so is a XXX...

JPK

Just call me "STUMPY"!

so no one answered my question about how many 500/416 rifles have been sold ?

new guy - can you tell us how many heym sold pls ?

i seriously doubt that 300 have been built in total...... but this caliber was the best thing since sliced bread.

they were sold a bill of goods - just like the promoters of the old 450/400 are selling theirs.

the rifle makers are always looking for something "new" to sell to the unsuspecting.
so are the ammo makers. if there wasn't something new they wouldn't get any buyers

quote:

Originally posted by Doc52:
Just call me "STUMPY"!

No, just call you a retard.

quote:

Originally posted by 400 Nitro Express:

I think George Caswell summed it up best. During a discussion of the .450/.400 we had some years ago, he said "There's a lot of ego and 'little dick' syndrome wrapped up in the demand for the .470...". Those of us with normal sized units can get along just fine with the .400. We have nothing to compensate for.

The 450/400 is not the same as a 470. While I like Geo. Caswell, I don't think he has enough DG hunting experience to make a qualified statement such as that.

This is the same old argument that the there is no differnce in the 458 and the 416 and no difference between the 416 and the 375 and there is no differnce between the 375 and................ the 22LR.

OK Stumpy!

That must make the fruit of your loins "Son of Stumpy".

quote:

they were sold a bill of goods - just like the promoters of the old 450/400 are selling theirs

That's a real good one Tom!

quote:

Originally posted by 577NitroExpress:

quote:

Originally posted by Doc52:
Just call me "STUMPY"!

No, just call you a retard.

I bet your house is a blast at X-Mas...Once SR gets boozed up that is! I wish I could make TX to see you two in action again!

I know George Caswell has shot 3 bull elephants.
Seen the ivory, seen the video.
If I remember correctly one was in the 85 lb range one in the 75 lb range, cannot remember the other.

I think he shot one elephant with a 470 double.

His favorite calibre is the 450 No2.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

Originally posted by 400 Nitro Express:

I think George Caswell summed it up best. During a discussion of the .450/.400 we had some years ago, he said "There's a lot of ego and 'little dick' syndrome wrapped up in the demand for the .470...". Those of us with normal sized units can get along just fine with the .400. We have nothing to compensate for.

The 450/400 is not the same as a 470. While I like Geo. Caswell, I don't think he has enough DG hunting experience to make a qualified statement such as that.

Advise increased salt intake when listening to comments of a salesman.

quote:

Originally posted by ROSCOE:

quote:

Originally posted by 577NitroExpress:

quote:

Originally posted by Doc52:
Just call me "STUMPY"!

No, just call you a retard.

I bet your house is a blast at X-Mas...Once SR gets boozed up that is! I wish I could make TX to see you two in action again!

Roscoe, you don't know the half of it. Whenever we get the chance to get together, it is always an enjoyable time! I'm sure guys at next month's hunt will have stories about my dad and I.