I have been looking for the perfect double rifle for me for years. At each turn, I was too late or many dollars short. Last year in Reno I placed an order for one of Butches Classic double rifles in 450-400, 3" and an extra set of 375 flanged magnum barrels. They are not quite ready to be made yet. After watching all of the posts on this and other forums I am wondering if I made the right choice in calibers. I am wondering if I should have ordered a larger caliber than the 450-400,3" for the "HEAVY"?Perhaps the 450 3 1/4', 450#2 or a 500,3" along with the 375?? Butch said there isn't that much performance difference in the 400 vs the 450 class rounds. Not sure about that. I know Butch is great on rifles. I just dont want to make a major mistake.

lb,
How about a 500 3" with an extra set of barrels in 450/400 3"?With the latter being scoped.
Just thinking out loud here.
Fred

Just me but I would go for 375 scoped and a 500.

Fred, I think that is a sound idea. I was wanting at least one caliber (375) that might serve me here in the USA, for larger game. I think Butch is working on a smaller action than the original Classic, his words, that will be trimmer than the original. I was thinking that a 375/450 3.25 combination on that frame would be wonderfully nice. I am wanting the rifle to weigh in at 10 lbs or less. I think in the 375/450-400 he could get the weight down to under 9 lbs. especially with the new frame arrangement.

lb,
My 450/400 weighs about 9.5 lbs.Recoil is brisk don't know if I would want to go lighter.My thoughts were that the 450/400 and 375 were pretty close in caliber class.These are just my thoughts and opinions but I was thinking of the 500 and 450/400 combo and get one of the Chapuis or Merkels in 9.3x74 as they are cheaper than 375 barrels and close in performance....again I'm just thinking out loud.

Fred

lb
There is nothing wrong with your choice of the 450/400 and 375Flanged.


I think the 450/400 is the best double rifle riund for the modersn Safari hunter.
And we all know what the 375 can do.

Since you will be having a 2 bbl set...

A 450 3 1/4" would also be a great round.
It has the advantage of using easy to find and cheap .458 bullets for practice and 350 gr for deer and pigs.

A 450 to 500gr .458 bullet at @2100fps does excellent work on buff and elephant.

I prefer the 450 bore to the 470 because of the bullets avialable, but the 470 would be a good choice because of the factory Federal ammo.

With a set of 375 Fl bbls you cannot really go wrong with the other set on 400,450 or 470.

Butch and I talked for a long time on the caliber choice. He wanted two calibers close enough that there would not be a big difference in weight or handeling/balance. I think the 450 3.25 is about as big as one could go for similar case head size as the 375. I have a 500 Jeffery and can shoot it off the bench at 500 N.E. 3" velocities. I just wonder if I will be able to see a major difference between the 375 and the 450-400 or would the 375/450 3.25 be a better split????

Leonard,
You have not made a mistake choosing the 450/400 3 inch. It is a great round that will get the job done and won't beat the hell out of you while it does it!

lb404,

how is the Beretta?

I would personally suggest a little bit bigger gap between the two, even if it meant a slightly different feel.
The 450/400 just seems a bit...anemic(?) 400gr bullet at 2050fps is just a warm load in a 45-70. A 450 would be an ideal combination, and not upset the balance much.

JMHO

Rich

AND YES Butch is about a year or so out. He only builds 49 DR's a year...ask the BATFE why.

stick with the 375 barrel choice

forget about the obsolete 450/400
only people on this forum care for it, no one else

get the 450 3 1/4 or 470 bbls

either is a choice you will never regret.

and -do - have a claw mount scope put on your 375 barrels !

don't get talked into those cheap mounts with the cute little levers,

they are just -cheap- ! nowhere near as good as claw mounts. just cheap.

if they were so good why don't the long established gunmakers use them ???

answer that one before you order something you will regret.

Rich, I haven't received the Beretta yet. Thanks for the tip. I will let you know how the geese like it next weekend. My partners took three geese and three ducks today. Good shooting for a short time. The good thing about buying a Searcy gun is they work out the load and regulation for the rifle for you. He will regulate the 450-400 with whatever bullet I want and at 2150 f/s. That really shouldn't be that anemic on any dangerous game. I am certain that an equally good choice would be the 450 N.E.

Another set of problems, should the two calibers in question be regulated with Woodleigh bullets in their appropriate weights? I really want to shoot the North Fork or GS custom bullets but they are light for caliber. Mike says to regulate to the Woodleigh bullet and then see how it goes with the GS or NF bullets. On the 375 would you regulate with the 300gr. or the 270gr.??The may well be at the same point anyway but who knows???

I would save your money on the second set of barrels and order another rifle. The 400 and the 375 are great rounds but I think they are too close to each other to warrent the additional cost. I would go for the 400 and then have another large bore double made in 470 or 500 depending on what you expect to hunt. I don't believe the 450-400 is a short term "Fad" or is "obsolete". With Ruger making rifles and Hornady loading the ammo...I expect it to be more popular than a 470 in terms of Ammo sales very soon. If or when I get the crazy idea to order another double I expect it will be a 400. I have thought of having Butch build another set of barrels for my 470 but I think the best bet will be to have another gun made. The problem with switch barrels is that you will end up with one that gets used...and the other will get left in the Truck. If you have two full rifles...large and small...then someone can carry your heavy rifle should you come across the need for it.

lb
I do not think a 450/400 AND a 450 or 470 is a good choice.

Too much overlap to have both on the same Safari.

A 9,3x74R or a 375 Flanged scoped double with a 400 to 475 double is a perfect combo.

Or at least it has been perfect for me on 3 Safaris.

I do think 2 complete guns is better than a 2 bbled set.

The reason I picked a two barrel set is that in most African countries this would be considered a one rifle arrangement, not two. It would allow you to have another lighter rifle for plains game and not break the two rifle deal. It might not be important enough to consider but that was and advantage.

The light double will be used for plains game! On my next trip I plan of taking two doubles...the 470NE and the 9.3x74. As much as I love them...I will leave my "Bolt Trash" as Mark will call it, at home!

lb
If you are thinking along those lines then it is a good idea.
Your 2 bbled set with a lighter bolt rifle would work good.

On my last Safari I killed game with my 450 No2, my 450/400, my 9,3x74R my Blaser R 93 in 308 and birds with my drilling.

My wife killed game with the 450/400, the 308 and with the 30-06 bbl in her drilling, as well as birds with the drilling.

so how many rifles are you planning to take on your safari. all countries i know of let you bring in more than one .

another detriment to two barrel sets - unless both are desirable you may have difficulty selling it. and even then you have to find a buyer who wants it and ---can afford it !

better would be two separate rifles. they can be sold offindividually , esp when you realize you made a mistake in the caliber selection of one of them

On all of my safaries to date when we hunt the big stuff we carry the heavies. I have shot 5 buff. No luck on cats yet. When we hunt buff, we hunt buff to the exclusion of other stuff. Once that game is done, the medium bores come out and we hunt other game. Even if we encountered dangerous game with the 375 fm we still are covered. Perhaps better than a 06 or a 300mag anyway. I would also take a accurate scope sighted 9,3x62 for my other plains game. There are so many good ideas to look at and only two choices to make.

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:
Leonard,
You have not made a mistake choosing the 450/400 3 inch. It is a great round that will get the job done and won't beat the hell out of you while it does it!

Agreed! The 375H&H flanged will fit the 450/400 Jef action far better than on a 500NE action. Neither of these rounds will kill you to shoot or carry. At the same time, both will take anything that walks the Earth. I'd scope both barrel sets, with a lighted reticle scope on the 375, and a Post and cross hair on the 450/400NE. With this pair, you can hunt anything you want, and no matter which is in your hands at the time they both are legal for what ever you come in contact with!

In the USA, both can be used on everything from deer to Brownie! Good, well ballanced choice, IMO!

mac, that is the absolutely stupidest combination a guy could choose!!!!

unless he took a 9,3 x 62 and a 375....

one or the other, not both. the 375 and 450/400 are both medium bores, neither is a better stopper over the other.

forget that 450/400 - get a real rifle, a 470

quote:

Originally posted by tomo577:
mac, that is the absolutely stupidest combination a guy could choose!!!!

forget that 450/400 - get a real rifle, a 470

Tom...are you trying to piss people off? These are the same guys you plan on hunting with in TX...should be fun!

I didn't think that the 450-400 was considered a medium bore. There should be a difference in a 400 vs 300 gr. bullet. I thought the 400 was a light heavy in the manner of the Jeffery or the Rigby.

Tom
I do not think lb's selections are "stupid". However they do have some overlap.

On my first Safari I found the scoped 9,3x74R, and the 450 No2 to be a perfect pair.

If the 450 No2 broke the 9,3 could be used on buff and elephant.

On my second Safari I took the same 2 doubles, and I used the 9,3 on my buff and on an elephant cow, with perfect results as well as other plains game. With the 450 I took a bull elephant, eland and wildbeest.

On my third Safari I only used the 450 No2 on one cow elephant.

The 9,3 did excellent service on plains game, while I used the 450/400 on buff, bull elephant, lion and a warthog.
I used iron sights on the buff and elephant and the scope on the lion and warthog.

When carrying the 9,3x74R I "think" in the back of my mind it is a little bit light in case of drama with the big stuff.

When carrying the 450 No2 I "wonder" if I will see an animal that I might need a scpoe for.
I do not worry about it too much, as I am all about elephants, everything else I shoot if it gets in the way... Still....

When I found out on my third Safari that in addition to the bull and cow elephant I would also have an opportunity to shoot a lion, I used the scoped 450/400 the whole time in that area.

When stalking elephants and buff I carried the scope in my back pocket in case we stumbled upon a lion.

I must say that the scoped 450/400 double gave me the feeling that I was COMPLETELY prepared for ANY animal, and ANY shot that might occur.

My 450 No2 is my favorite rifle, and my Chapuis 9,3x74R is my favorite rifle under 40 cal.

However, I think the scoped 450/400 double is the best Safari rifle for the modern Safari hunter after a mixed bag.

Not too heavy, does not kick too hard. With a scope, capable of 250 yard shots on plains game, or lion and leopard over bait in low light, and fully capable for use on buff, hippo and elephant.

You can never go wrong with a 450/400, especially if scoped with QD mounts.

Back it up with a good medium bore and you have a perfect pair.

LB, your calibers are close together but not in error. A more well-rounded pair might be a 375 flanged and a 470 NE. But if you like the 450-400 then stick with your original order.

quote:

I must say that the scoped 450/400 double gave me the feeling that I was COMPLETELY prepared for ANY animal, and ANY shot that might occur.

Tony, having seen you shoot and hunt, you are completely prepared to hunt with any firearm ever made.

And you'll hit your target every time.

The man is a machine.

quote:

Originally posted by lb404:
I have been looking for the perfect double rifle for me for years. At each turn, I was too late or many dollars short. Last year in Reno I placed an order for one of Butches Classic double rifles in 450-400, 3" and an extra set of 375 flanged magnum barrels. They are not quite ready to be made yet. After watching all of the posts on this and other forums I am wondering if I made the right choice in calibers. I am wondering if I should have ordered a larger caliber than the 450-400,3" for the "HEAVY"?Perhaps the 450 3 1/4', 450#2 or a 500,3" along with the 375?? Butch said there isn't that much performance difference in the 400 vs the 450 class rounds. Not sure about that. I know Butch is great on rifles. I just dont want to make a major mistake.

lb404,
There are a lot of opinions on hear lol I will now throw out my thoughts on combos. There are a lot of people who think you should go larger 470 ect. I think the 450-400-3.25 is a good choice for all the big stuff .Why not go to a smaller caliber for your other set say 280 flanged . This will give you a great set up for lighter skinned plains game and make a great mule deer gun in the states. I would scope both sets of barrels . I just think the 375 Flanged and 450-400-3.25 are to ways to do the same thing. This should help if you decide to sell it. The choice is ultimately yours.
Good luck
Bill

The 450 3 1/4 can be made into a sleek rifle that should feel much the same as a 450/400. Probably the best handling double I've ever seen was a 450 3 1/4 by Rigby. I would vote for a 450 3 1/4 with 375 Flanged with the 375 definitely scoped. The 450 3 1/4 gives you a 20% energy boost over the 400. If elephants are in your future, it's a good choice!

I think a 450NE and a scoped 375 Flanged would be a great combo if they both could be built on the slim action.
ozhunter

FOR ROSCOE
i finally figured it out !!!

these 450/400 affecinados are the same bunch that heralded the 500/416 as the best thing since sliced bread. they bought into it hook line and sinker ----got to believing their own stuff as they say.

well we all see how that rising star of a cartridge went supernova. despite all the wonderful claims it is a bust.

when was the last time you saw a box of them on the gunshop shelf. and not just in africa, but throughout the entire world !

all this fall-der -all that the 450/400 is being loaded by hornaday ( by the little old man in their custom shop using a turret press)doesn't mean they are going to put a market push on it or the riflemakers to build for it.

how many riflemakers built 500/416- and more to the point - how many rifles total in that caliber did they make ? DAMN FEW !

don't dupe yourself into thinking that hornaday is setting up a loading line for it - they are setting up a loading press - like you use at home.

there is darn little a 450/400 can do that cannot be done just as well by the 375. and the 450/400 can't do all a 470 can..

so the final answer to the initial question is

YES, YOU MADE A MISTAKE IN THE CALIBERS.

tomo577
Question?
What double rifles do you have, and what game have you taken with them.
What doubles will you bring to the DRSS Shoot?

I agree with the 375 FM and the 450 3 1/4" NE. The 450 NE uses the 450 case head diameter as does the 450/400's so you could still use the same slender action. This makes the 450 NE the best choice for your combo.

I see that you have killed 5 buffalo and no elephants. If elephants aren't your primary target then the 450/400 is just dandy. The problem is that you haven't killed an elephant and so you don't know if elephants will end up being your primary target. If they do end up being your primary target, I think you will end up wishing you'd gone with the 450 NE.

I' pretty sure that I can see the difference in impact effect on elephants just taking a .458", 500gr Woodleigh solid from about 2025fps to 2135fps, I'm 100% sure that I could see the difference going from .411" and 400grs at 2150fps to .458" and 500grs at 2150fps. Of course if your brain shot is perfect every time it wouldn't make a difference and we'd all be shooting 6.5 MS or 7x57's aka 275 Rigbys ilke Bell.

JPK

Despite my novice dealing with doubles, I would have to say: your money, your guns, your shooting ability, ultimately, if you are happy... Nothing wrong with your selection, if that is what you like. As many have stated here, your choices are very much adequate for what you are going to be doing. Don't sweat it, just practice once you get them and make good, clean kill shots and you will be just fine.

Brian

Edited to include: Just listen to Tony (NE450#2) he knows what he is talking about.

Just a few words from a newbie,I have never hunted buffalo or elephant,but I was at the range today with my 9,3x74r & my 470,first time that I got to play with both these calibers together at the same time,what can I say except,bring it on.......! between the two calibers is there anything that I feel I am not ready for ....NO!
When you see me in Africa,these are the the two calibers I will be shooting.

I would agree with 500 grains, the calibers are excellent but quite close in performance with the 450-400 or 375 being a great one gun show in Africa. I would choose the 375 and the 470 for a covering the spectum better, and put a scope on the 375.

quote:

Originally posted by tomo577:
that is the absolutely stupidest combination a guy could choose!!!!

Folks here is a fine example of how to win friends and influance people, I must say!

Tom, the 450/400NE 3" is not a medium! The big bore starts a .400 cal, and I've owned and hunted with just about every chambering ever chambered in a double rifle. With that, I find the 450/400NE 3", in a 10.5 lb double rifle to to be one of the deadlist combinations I've ever shot at hair.

The reason the combination of 375H&H flanged
is a good choice when paired with the 450/400 is, they are both legal for Dangerous game in every country where hunting is allowed. The 375 H&H is a perfect cat rifle, even in a charge,with irons, or at long range with a scope, for Plains game. The 450/400NE 3" is well up to anything he is likely to hunt, and if the brain of an ele is missed the 470NE will not stunn any better than the 450/400, that begines with the .500s. If the brain is hit, then the 375 will drop any ele that ever lived,and if the heart/lung shot is taken on an ele a .400 hole lets out blood at about the same rate as a .475 hole.

My own pair for Africa is a pair of double rifles chambered for 9.3X74R, and a 470NE, and I would trade the 470NE for a nice 450/400NE 3" or even a 450NE 3 1/4" in like condition in a heart beat. Even if it were stupid, I'd have no problem pairing ether up with a 375 H&H flanged. If a problem developes with either, I can do the whole Safari, for both dangerous game, and plains game with the other, and that can't be said of the 470NE or larger double, if you lighter double goes south!

I think I can safely say you are going by numbers in a book rather than field experience, when down-gradeing a 450/400NE double. Like the 375 H&H the 450/400NE simply does things all out of perportion to the numbers in books.

If I could only have one double rifle for everything around the world, it would be a 450/400NE 3" , and second choice would be a 375 H&H flanged!

Of course one may shoot what ever he chooses, but I think he will be happy with the combo he has chosen ! If not, then it only takes a phone call to Butch before he starts the barrels!

Big Bores start at .458". Large mediums start at .408". The medium bores for africa are only .366" and .375".

Either way it doesn't change the performance of a given rifle.

JPK

Can we get a "YOU DAMN KIDS GET OFF MY DAMN LAWN" Graemlin?

Tom, I know you are a John Taylor fan. Here is what Taylor had to say about the 450/400 in "Big Game and Big Game Rifles":

"For years, prior to the introduction of the .375 magnum, this rifle had the reputation of being the weapon which most nearly met all requirements for general, all-around, big game hunting...I have used it extensively and used to swear by it - I still do. Throughout the length and breadth of Africa, I cannot remember ever hearing a man say a word against it. It is undoubtedly one of the most popular cartridges that has ever been placed on the market for general all-around big game hunting. The solid bullet is excellent for elephant and rhino; with a solid in one barrel and a soft-nosed with lead just showing at the tip in the other, it is splendidly effective on buffalo; while with soft-nosed bullets having plenty of lead showing at the nose, it is very deadly on lion; for non-dangerous game, soft-nosed and soft-nosed-split bullets are used with great satisfaction on all but the smallest varieties...I can also say, and say it with emphasis, that the .400 is an eminently safe, sound, and splendidly satisfactory weapon to take against all dangerous game anywhere."

For a guy that spoke his mind and was on the stingy side with his compliments, Taylor obviously thought a lot about the 450/400.

While I would prefer two rifles to a two barrel set, your reasoning for the two barrel set isn't wrong. A good friend of mine has a .500/.416, without scope, with extra scoped barrel sets in .375 Flanged Magnum and 7X65R. For bird shooting on safari, he has an another set in 20 bore. He takes a .375 M70 as a second rifle. He's used this outfit on several safaris and loves the flexibility. Personally, in both cases I would have chosen 9.3X74R for the second set just because that caliber is easier.

My choice would be one rifle in .450/.400 and a second, in 9.3X74R with an extra set of 20 bore barrels. The rifles have some overlap, which I would want, plus you get to take a shotgun, yet only have to mess with two guns.

quote:

Originally posted by lb404:
Butch said there isn't that much performance difference in the 400 vs the 450 class rounds. Not sure about that. I know Butch is great on rifles. I just dont want to make a major mistake.

Butch is right. The .450/.400 was the most popular heavy double rifle up until the late post-WWII era. It's displacement by the .470, at a time when double rifle manufacture had almost completely ceased, had to do with Ruark, Capstick, ammo availability (at a time when finding all of the DR rounds was like prospecting for gold), and the decline of the double rifle in general, not effectiveness. The .400 was the most popular for a good reason - the same reason that you chose it. You made the right choice.

Look, this is an old debate. Taylor went into quite a bit of detail about it in his book, published 60 years ago, and written after his hunting career was essentially over. Like few others, he used almost all of the DR rounds at one time or another. He only devoted full chapters to two cartridges - .375 Magnum and .450/.400. He wrote that the vocal crowd who stated that .450 was minimum for thick-skinned game were those who had not used the .400, and those who did use it had nothing but praise for it. It's the same today. Some guys hear that .450 is minimum, buy something in the .450/.470 group, use it successfully, and then insist that the .400 is "anemic" without ever having used it. The guys I know who have used it on elephant in recent years have nothing but praise for it. I've never heard a negative word from a .400 user, not one.

Another poster here has posted another string where he lifts quotes out of various chapters of Taylor's book, in an attempt to show that Taylor favored calibers heavier than .400 for thick-skinned game. Taylor himself disposes of such nonsense in his own summation, in which he recommends the .450/.400 or the .500/.465 for heavy game, further explaining that he includes the .465 only for the man that needs a boost to his confidence. In other words, in his view, the difference is mental.

The utterly asinine statements that the .450/.400 is "obsolete", and that nobody is buying the .400s or the .500/.416 are those of a contrarian spoiler who is substantially ignorant of double rifles.

I heard through the grapevine how many "Classics" Butch sold at SCI and Dallas last year, and how many of those were .450/.400s. I don't remember exactly what they were, but both numbers were impressive.

At our last DRSS event in August, we had 20 double rifles show up. There were more .400s (6) than any other caliber, followed by 4 .470s, 2 .500/.416s (so much for nobody buying those), 2 .500s, 2 9.3s, and one each of .577, .475 3 1/4", .450 No. 2, and .400/.360.

I think George Caswell summed it up best. During a discussion of the .450/.400 we had some years ago, he said "There's a lot of ego and 'little dick' syndrome wrapped up in the demand for the .470...". Those of us with normal sized units can get along just fine with the .400. We have nothing to compensate for.
------------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

I think George Caswell summed it up best. During a discussion of the .450/.400 we had some years ago, he said "There's a lot of ego and 'little dick' syndrome wrapped up in the demand for the .470...". Those of us with normal sized units can get along just fine with the .400. We have nothing to compensate for.

And I always thought "length of pull" was something altogether different. Must be an interesting time getting fitted for a rifle up in Oklahoma.

And those guys that shoot the 577 Nitro...

quote:

And those guys that shoot the 577 Nitro...

My wife has my pecker stored for safe keeping somewhere (I don't know where). I get to take it out and play with it every so often.