quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:
So, after being mislead on the very issues promised to be addressed would you trust this particular double on an elephant hunt in Africa?

Nope, I would not.

I would be demanding a refund. I hope it all works out for you and you either get satisfaction or your money back.

Drat. I sure hate it for you Doc. I've been there before (though not to that extreme), I feel for you.
Personally, I wouldn't take another chance with a Sabatti, but that is just me. If you do opt for a replacement, I hope you get a gem. You deserve it.


As far as Sabatti, it looks like the fears of some are being realised more and more as time goes on. I hope that these bum rifles and repair goof-ups are the exeption and not the rule.

http://www.eaacorp.com/ Page 11 from the catalog

http://www.ussginc.com/longguns.html SAB92F

I was looking for Baikal information and stumbled onto what appears to be EAA importing the Sabatti doubles which appear to be made by Baikal.

quote:

Originally posted by Sid Post:
http://www.eaacorp.com/ Page 11 from the catalog

http://www.ussginc.com/longguns.html SAB92F

I was looking for Baikal information and stumbled onto what appears to be EAA importing the Sabatti doubles which appear to be made by Baikal.

I don't think so. They have 798s listed on that same webpage with the Baikal header:

http://www.ussginc.com/longguns.html

and I know for a fact they are made by Zastava in Serbia. Sabattis are made in Italy.

quote:

I was looking for Baikal information and stumbled onto what appears to be EAA importing the Sabatti doubles which appear to be made by Baikal

I actually called EAA back in January when I was looking for a Sabatti because Cabela's didn't have what I was looking for. Was told Cabela's was the sole importer and EAA had several backordered from Cabela's. No one was getting guns in except through Cabela's. Makes sense when Cabela's signed the exclusive importer contract and you look at EAA's prices in comparison - they're higher.

I had my grandpa register as a dealer through EAA so I could get my hands on on one of these doubles around Labor Day. His price on the 45-70 and 9.3x74r was $2200. I believe that 4k and 4.5k were the prices on the other models. EAA told my grandpa "no" on the purchase because Cabela's had a 2 year exclusive on these rifles.

Cane Rat is right about the cost of a properly regulated double. Think how much money Chapuis or Verney-Carron would make if they offered a PH model with no engraving and straight graing wood? Chapuis makes a great double in 9.3x74r in the 5k range. Would 7k be too much to ask on that type of rifle in some NE calibers? I would be willing to spend the extra scratch on a better rifle.

When I brought my 450-400 back to Cabelas for re-regulation in November they advided they would send it back to the factory. OK. Two weeks later they called and said the distributor was shooting it now and would adjust it. I drove to Cabelas that weekend with my 9.3x74 and requested a full refund which Cabelas promptly followed up with with a corporate check arriving at my home in a week. I took the money and bought a couple of very fine custom bolt guns. I am now looking for a good deal on a quality 9.3x74 as I really enjoyed that rifle/caliber.

quote:

Originally posted by touchdown88:
Cane Rat is right about the cost of a properly regulated double. Think how much money Chapuis or Verney-Carron would make if they offered a PH model with no engraving and straight graing wood? Chapuis makes a great double in 9.3x74r in the 5k range. Would 7k be too much to ask on that type of rifle in some NE calibers? I would be willing to spend the extra scratch on a better rifle.

If you watch the classifieds carefully, you can get some really good deals on 9.3x74R rifles. Chapuis may not get the on-line love of some of the other big names but, both my rifles have wood I find to be well above average compared to your average bolt actions and are wonderful rifles built right. After reading about the various Sabatti issues, I'm glad I stepped up a little more and went with Chapuis.

quote:

Originally posted by touchdown88:


Cane Rat is right about the cost of a properly regulated double. Think how much money Chapuis or Verney-Carron would make if they offered a PH model with no engraving and straight grain wood? Chapuis makes a great double in 9.3x74r in the 5k range. Would 7k be too much to ask on that type of rifle in some NE calibers? I would be willing to spend the extra scratch on a better rifle.

You can’t apply the typical "high volume equals more profit" to double rifles. The reputable companies sell all the rifles they can produce. Since they have significant hand fitting and craftsmanship, they take more time to produce. The number of people capable of this level quality are limited. It takes a lot of training to learn this trade. For producers in this business, selling higher volumes is an indication that your price is too low.

What most fail to realize is that Sabatti is doing exactly what you are requesting above. They have cut corners and used machines to do as much of the work as possible. They are using cheap labor to put the rifles together, and the regulation process (if you choose to call it that) is designed to be quick and not require much skill. This is the only way they can produce them at a price that can allow Cabelas to sell them under $5K.

To some, these guns may be exactly what they are looking for. A guy that dreams of owning a double, but cant fork out $8000, can probably have a lot of fun with these guns. There is nothing wrong with these guns provided you know what you are getting into. Some of them appear to be working and shooting fine.

The people who buy them and expect the same quality as one finds on the more traditional brands, are going to be disappointed. Thankfully Cabelas is a stand up company and is allowing a refund for the people who request them. That is something few can offer. Imagine what these guns would be worth if cabelas wouldn’t take them back!

Thanks for keeping us all posted on your experience. I just REALLY wish that you would test fire it before giving up. Just because there is no target included does not guarantee that it was not done before being shipped back. That would be the ONLY way to see if the rifle now regulated well (or poorly).

Good luck!

You may be right but I have asked for evidence that it had been regulated and test fired. I can't even get a "Yes it was" regarding my question no less the evidence.

I am envious of those of you who can walk out back or drive a few miles to do some shooting - if I could I would certainly do so. Like many of you, I average over 100 hours a week and for me to spend 2 hours driving to my county place just to find out it had not been regulated and drive another two back home is 4+ hours of time I'd rather spend with my family.

Again, we (Cabelas folk and I) were told a couple of things that, as it turns out, are not true. Why would I believe it was regulated particularly since no one can even tell me if it was or was not?

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:
Why would I believe it was regulated particularly since no one can even tell me if it was or was not?

I totally understand, but sadly we will never really know for sure. Good luck

I went to the Cabelas store in Fort Worth to look at the Sabatis after all this discussion and what I found that the test targets were regulated with different types of ammo. One was with Hornady DG solids and another was with softs. Is this standard or do they just shoot and whichever ammo prints best that is what they use. Help me understand. Thanks

Proper regulation is done with Softs and confirmed with a couple of Solids at the end of the process.

What you have said above just confirms in my mind that they are all over the place - the company Sabatti that "makes" the guns.

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
Proper regulation is done with Softs and confirmed with a couple of Solids at the end of the process.

What you have said above just confirms in my mind that they are all over the place - the company Sabatti that "makes" the guns.

Exactly. I know that H&H regulates with Woodleigh softs and once it is regulated they shoot a couple of solids to make sure it is "minute of elephant" and good to go. No one, to my knowledge regulates with solids as they are hard on the barrels and solder.

quote:

Originally posted by Cane Rat:
No one, to my knowledge regulates with solids as they are hard on the barrels and solder.

So does that mean that they don't hold up to (or are not designed to) hold up to sustained shooting of solids? I had not heard that before.

quote:

Originally posted by JCS271:

quote:

Originally posted by Cane Rat:
No one, to my knowledge regulates with solids as they are hard on the barrels and solder.

So does that mean that they don't hold up to (or are not designed to) hold up to sustained shooting of solids? I had not heard that before.

Not sure on the solder part.


In answer to your question, No, not really. But it is known that steel Jacketed solids are harder on barrels than Soft's as Steel is steel (regardless of how very SLIGHTLY undersize and tapered they are) whereas soft's are made from Guilding metal. (I was referring to how Woodleigh's are made in the above sentance, other manufacturers may not make Solid's slightly undersize or tapered).

A DR would last using Solid's in sustained shooting but the wear over a longer period of time would probably be more. In our lifetime, I doubt we'd even notice it.

That's my HO.

.

Gentlemen,

I have read with interest this story on the Sabatti Double rifle problems.

Being from Australia we do not hear much about the problems but I have started a post on the www.nitroexpress.com and was put onto this discussion by another member 500nitro.

Would you please give us Aussie's the 'Guts' on this subject by going to the forum that I have given above and called.: "Sabatti Double Rifles, Brickbats & Bouquets"

You do not know how lucky that you have an upstanding company in Cabella's and what they are doing for the shooters of America.

Any information that you can provide would be appreciated.

I better say that I purchased a Sabatti in .450 N.E. 3.25" which was regulated with Kynamco ammunition, the only problem is that it is not available in Australia. The test target has 3 holes, 2 being circled and stated as final group. No indication is provided as to which shot is from which barrel so I had to send it to a gunsmith in Tasmania who is experienced with double's to work up a load (I can not due to health concerns for that many shots) and the best he could get was a group of about 2.5", the right barrel printed 1.5" to the left with the right barrel printing 1.0" to the right and 3" high and this was with reduced loads of 90gns of AR2209 with 480gn Woodleigh RSN. If he went to 93gns as per Graeme Wright, the group blew out to 4.5" and 2" higher. He also thought that it needs to be re regulated.

So I need to obtain as much information before I 'Press' the Importer but as of the 13/06/2011 he advised me that quote "You don't believe what's on the Internet" and he is not aware of any being returned, the Dremmel fixing would not have been done at the factory and the best of all "The rifle is supposed to Cross"

So that gives you an idea of what us Aussies have to contend with so how about giving us one of your Cabela stores.

Cheers,

Jeff Gray

. tu2

Actually, Hornady DGXs (expanding softs), are made from steel jackets. Thinly copper plated.

More Sabatti news.

I got a call from my contact at Cabelas. He said that the person at EAA who was dealing with my Sabatti rifle wanted to talk to me about it and provided his phone and extension numbers.

After several attempts I reached the guy who asked if I really wanted the rifle worked on. He stated that it was the most accurate Sabatti he'd test fired and that if were his he wouldn't touch it.

When I told him that my impression was that the gun would be rebarreled or recrowned and re-regulated he said no - they could only replace the whole rifle. He also stated that the barrels are hard soldered which explains why they don't re-regulate.

Given that I have a lot of time invested in reworking the stock and the way the rifle shoots, I chose to have them return it as is.

The rifle is a Deluxe model .45/70 and my guess is that it would take quite a while to get a replacement. So, my decision is the lesser of two evils. The hogs and deer will never know the difference. If it was a DGR I'd go for a replacement.

Maybe I'll just shop around for a Vulcan mind erasing treatment to get rid of the filed muzzle image!

im always amazed how an outside influence effects our syke i think a lot of people where happy with their sabbati until the h&h and jeffrie and heym owners decided they didnt meet their standards and where waiting patiently for a flaw of any type to appear to prove their point. if the gun in workmanship and regulation meets your standard and affortable price be happy. no one is looking down the muzzle of your double to see how it is regulated. i have several drs and dont share them on this thread simply because they are always under scruteny barrel to long or to short or sights wrong or on and on length of pull but plate wrong. they would make you nuts if you listen to them. on the other hand many are very helpful.

You seem to have missed the ballistic lab testing of one of these muzzle-tuned rifles.

The filed/ground 'oval' muzzle treatment was shown to impart an instability to the bullets which were found to tumble in media.

quote:

Originally posted by usps:
im always amazed how an outside influence effects our syke i think a lot of people where happy with their sabbati until the h&h and jeffrie and heym owners decided they didnt meet their standards and where waiting patiently for a flaw of any type to appear to prove their point. if the gun in workmanship and regulation meets your standard and affortable price be happy. no one is looking down the muzzle of your double to see how it is regulated. i have several drs and dont share them on this thread simply because they are always under scruteny barrel to long or to short or sights wrong or on and on length of pull but plate wrong. they would make you nuts if you listen to them. on the other hand many are very helpful.

It's not a case of 'simple scrutiny'.
The scrutiny was handled in a very scientific fashion -- and it was handled by an impartial third party who if I recall properly doesn't own a double rifle (like it matters...)

This isn't a case of "my rifle's dick is bigger than yours", it's a case of the regulation method screwing up the stability of the bullets through media.
If all you want to shoot is paper targets, then go-daddy-go.
Doc here who sent the rifle back to the maker for repair was planning to shoot game with his Sabatti.
Rolling the dice on bullet path through meat and bone wasn't good enough for him.


This wasn't a simple and vain decision.



Cheers
Tinker

a.tinkerer,
Accurate, precise and perfectly put.

quote:

Originally posted by MACD:
He also stated that the barrels are hard soldered which explains why they don't re-regulate.

I wonder what "hard soldered" is. Solder should be able to be unsoldered. If not silver soldered is it welded? Or does he mean the barrels are just soldered together without a regulating wedge?

quote:

i think a lot of people where happy with their sabbati until the h&h and jeffrie and heym owners decided they didnt meet their standards and where waiting patiently for a flaw of any type to appear to prove their point. if the gun in workmanship and regulation meets your standard and affortable price be happy

USPS

A lot of people are happy with them and good on them. However, i think some people are NOT happy with them and that is NOT good. EVERYONE should be happy with their purchase, especially since it is aimed at the first time buyer.

It wasn't a case of "waiting patiently for a flaw of any type to appear to prove their point", it was a case of someone has cut corners on the correct way of doing things to get it out the door at this price and it shouldn't occur. It is NOT a case of being H&H, Heym or other owners.

If the gun in workmanship and regulation....." agree, but the problem is, some of the work is SUB STANDARD. If you are happy to accept sub standard work, so be it but don't expect others to. I am sure if you purchased a "Remchester" with a glued on bolt handle and a ground muzzle you wouldn't be happy.

We have already determined that it would not take that long to do it all the right way and that is why we can't understand why they (Sabatti) do not do it.

.

.

"Hard soldered" is just another way of saying silver soldered. It requires a lot more heat than lead solder to reach the melt point. It's a good news/bad news sort of thing. Silver solder is much stronger, but it's also much more difficult to work with if you only have propane as a heat source.

I've successfully relaid loose ribs on Brit shotguns but I wouldn't even attempt it on a continental gun with silver soldered ribs. I don't have enough heat or skill to do it.

I've no experience with newer Brit firearms, but it's very common for the older ones with lead solder to have loose ribs. I personally have never seen a loose rib on a continental gun.

As to the earlier post about "what other people think" influencing actions, it has nothing to do with my decision regarding my Sabatti. If I bought a new H & H Royal and found that the recoil pad had been nailed on I'd want it rectified. I'm out time, money and effort returning my rifle with no positive outcome. I'm simply giving people who may also have issues with their rifles a little knowledge that might help them make a better informed decision.

I think that Cabelas is trying to do the right thing. I also think their effort has been very poorly coordinated and communicated.

Hello Doc:
Sorry to read the unpleasant news regarding your Sabatti experience. I really appreciate and understand the frustration / disappointment that you must feel. I was hoping that USSG / Sabatti will deliver this time, thinking they must have been reading these forms and they must be under a lot of pressure from Cabela's. for I know for sure even as you have stated earlier on, somewhere in this post that the people at Cabela’s are trying their best to come through for their customers. I have had first hand experience with cabela's and I know that for a fact. IMHO based on what I have read of other people's experience with USSG, I honestly don’t think they shipped the gun back to Sabatti, but most likely they have done the work here in the States by some gun smith they deal with. They simply cut off the barrels and crowned the muzzles hoping that the rifle will shoot in the vicinity of. On the other hand my assessment could be totally wrong.
There is only one way to find out if the work was done properly, is to shoot the rifle.
You have done 95 % of the work. you like the rifle from what I read, it proofed itself reliable / functional through the testing that it was put through, never doubling or miss firing, etc. the only thing left now is to test fire it to see if it is accurate and shoots to the point of aim. I know that you stated that you don't have the luxury of some who have the time and live near a range. But there are no guarantees that a replacement rifle will shoot the same as the target indicates, or will regulate with deferent bullets from the ones it was originally regulated with, so back to square one.
I used to live in your neck of the woods, in Danbury not too far from Griffin and Howes, about an hour or so drive. There is a 50 yard range just before you reach Danbury on the left hand side on RT 7, you probably know about it but in case not I felt to pass on the info.

Good hunting /shooting and God’s best.

Malek

Thanks Malek,

Yeah quite disappointing. Everyone who has read my threads on the subject know that I have been a very fair and open-minded supporter of Sabatti. I gave them every chance to make things right and never once wrote or spoke disparagingly of them or their products. Even after this debacle I have maintained a fair and open-minded perspective and still consider buying a Sabatti 450/400 as long as properly built.

Why is this important? Because it was to be my back-up on an elephant/leopard/gemsbok hunt this coming November. Simple as that. Lives depend on reliability. I have no doubt that my 600NE in my hands will be sufficient on the elephant in my sights. The 450/400 in my father' hands should be reliable enough to make the shot if I don't; or stop the one I don't see charging from the left; or take out the wounded leopard that decides I don't have enough scars already; etc.

Not trying to be melodramatic but that is the simple truth. This double was to be in my father's hands while I track Jumbo and in mine while he finds Nkwe/Chui and in either's for PG.

I was going to drive to my place Upstate NY with my daughter this morning for some target practice but the dread of traffic put a damper on that plan (we hit 3 hours worth last evening for what should have been a 1 hour drive).

I am just not willing to spend any more time or money on this particular double, it's going back to Cabela's.

My thinking is

Why would I waste 5 hours (2 driving each way plus set-up and shooting if we didn't hit any weekend/Father's Day traffic) for a double rifle that was:

1) obviously not regulated to put two factory rounds near each other before "Dremel" regulation;

2) underwent "Dremel regulation" which lead to bullet tumbling;

and subsequently

3) had most but not all of the "Dremel-regulated" portion cut off and barrels re-crowned.

In other words, it couldn't put 2 rounds near each other before Dremel. It was Dremeled and put two rounds near each other (which tumbled). Most of the Dremel portion was cut off and no re-regulation done.

Why would I have any reason to believe it will do better now?

Nah, I have family and beautiful weather to enjoy and would rather spend my time and $5,500 on something I have some reason to believe will reliably do its job. It might be another Sabatti or maybe used towards a Verney-Carron or Chapuis (I really like that Chapuis AGEX 375 Flanged in GunsInternational).

Stay well and
HAPPY FATHER'S DAY to all

Paul

Well Doc, I fully understand and support your decision. for wanting a reliable, good rifle to hunt with on you upcoming hunting trip with your dad. You got to be worry free at least from your fire arms side, in order to really stay focused on the animals you are hunting and enjoy your hunt and for safety reasons too.
I really respect the fact that you did not bad mouth or mullein none of those that you dealt with and acted as gentleman in your handling of this situation with all objectiveness and truthfulness.

one of the reasons I wanted this to work for you, is so you will have a good rifle you can enjoy shooting and hunting with and the other one is that I do have a 450/400 rifle of my own on layaway waiting for me to be picked up when I go back home this time. Also wanting to see these darn rifles work out for everybody that bought them. for I still believe it is a very good rifle séance the grinding of the muzzles, regulation issue and is one heck of a deal.
mine is one of those that the muzzles / crowns on them are perfectly round and the rifling are not touched. I had Cabela's store email me some close up detailed pictures for the rifle and muzzles. It is a beauty in every way, wood is gorgeous metal fitting is perfect and target is less than 1" group at 50m.
when I was in the States a month ago. I picked up my 470NE Sabatti and it was everything that the pix showed and then some, so I have no reason to doubt that the 450/400 would not be the same.

good luck to you in whatever decision you make and good hunting / shooting and God's best.

Malek

Hey Doc, I must have missed the post about "tumbling". Did you get your rifle back, then test it?

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
Hey Doc, I must have missed the post about "tumbling". Did you get your rifle back, then test it?

Hi Jorge,

I did get it back but when I saw that all that was done was the the barrels were cut and re-crowned and that there was still a bit of Dremeled off rifling on the outer left barrel I decided it wasnt worth the trip to find out.

The tumbling I referred to was when Sam and Michael tested it before it went to USSG.

Went back and read your last few posts, but I didn't remember the tumbling issue. Please let us know how it turns out. I was given a full refund, but had to eat the shipping costs, not to mention the expense of flying out to Fort Worth to pick up the rifle. My hat is off to Cabelas for refunding no questions asked. Also I know your 600 was super special, but how long did it take?jorge

Jorge,
Cabelas has demonstrated the best in customer service throughout. Rick Wallis of Boise Cabelas gun library has simply been a true gentleman, honorable and I believe he did everything in his power to make things right. Andy Riedlinger has been supportive as well. I have no reservations about buying from Cabelas in the future particularly because of Rick's professionalism.

Verney-Carron delivered my 600NE about 7 months from order placement, maybe it was 6 but is have to check. Absolutely thrilled with it. Beautiful, exactly as I wanted and shoots everything well with 900 grainers from 1,800fps up to 2.186fps.

Thanks for your help Jorge,
Paul

Glad I could help and that seven month wait time answer made my day! I'm three months into waiting right now

Usps

I was the one who first brought the "Dremel regulation" to the forum.
I have no motives to discredit any company.
The rifle I had would not regulate with several boxes of factory ammo and several shooters.
We all can't be that bad a shot.
I have other doubles and they shoot very well.

I wanted desperately for this to work out, and have stated several times, If the gun shot I would likely have kept it.

BUT IT DID, NOT SHOOT. end of story.

Any gun 5 dollars to 500,000 dollars MUST SHOOT.

Or you may as well have a brick.

Nitro

Paul -

You are doing the correct thing by returning it to Cabela's (unfired) for a refund. As you realize, it is simply not worth the added expense in time and $$ to shoot what you know is an uncorrected Sabatti.

nitro450exp -

You did an invaluable service to all the Sabatti owners by informing us of the muzzle regulation (cuts). Thanks very much for sharing that information. It explained many things about the Sabatti shooting problems.

First I got a replacement Sabatti and then I took a refund on the 2nd one but was still out close to an additional $1500 for ammo (100 rounds), accessories and $600 of JJ's work on it before I even shot it. Mine was a 500NE which was too light by at least 2 pounds at 9.5 pounds. My partner had the same experience with his Sabatti 500NE and lost a similar amount of money beyond the refund as well.

Cabela's was stand-up throughout and would have given me a third Sabatti in exchange had I wanted to go for a third strike. I declined. Perhaps someday Sabatti will get the message and regulate their rifles correctly. They'll be a helluva buy if they do.

450Nitro: I'd like to echo Lion Hunter's comments thanking you for bringing the "regulation by dremel" to light. Cabelas did right by me and fortunately all the extra monies spent in ammo, reloading stuff, etc will be applied to my VC! Thanks again for this. jorge

Everyone,

It was a tough decision.
I really was impressed with all other aspects of the rifle.
It was a little light but a mercury tube or lead in the stock would have fixed that and improved the balance too !

I agonized over the decision and it's implications to Cabela's and Sabatti,
and even USSI ( EAA ) in FL, even though in 3 separate instances, I have had what I would rate as the WORST Customer service EVER from these folks, business must be so good they just don't give a crap.

Again my Cabela's was outstanding.

I really Hope Sabatti goes to a normal type of regulation, even if it adds $1000 to the price.
I would seriously give them a second go.

Just my 2c

Cheers Nitro

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
450Nitro: I'd like to echo Lion Hunter's comments thanking you for bringing the "regulation by dremel" to light. Cabelas did right by me and fortunately all the extra monies spent in ammo, reloading stuff, etc will be applied to my VC! Thanks again for this. jorge

+2
And I too would consider a properly regulated Sabatti at $1,000 or even $2,000 above the current price. I liked every other aspect of it better than the qualities of the Merkels or Chapuis I have owned.