Woodleigh's have always been tapered from the base forwards so only the last part of the bullet is bore diameter.

505,

Not so I even have some of the old ones before they changed the nose shape in .465 diameter. The ones before they had a cannalure. they are definately grove diameter for most of their length.

465H&H

quote:

465H&H:
Bridger may have been the first but North Fork and GS Custom quickly followed.

If you consider the complete time line, it is actually:

1992 - GSC starts production of the HP range of bullets.
1997 - GSC introduces the first multiple drive band small arms bullet available to reloaders in soft (HV) and solid (FN).
2000/1 - Northfork starts making soft nose bullets.
2002 - GSC introduces the SP range of target/tactical drive band bullets.
2002/3 - Bridger tests drive band FN type bullets and starts selling.
2003 - Northfork starts making FN type solids and Barnes introduces grooved TSX bullets

Gents:
I read this thread with great interest. It is sad when folks can't disagree without being called names, cussed at, or being attacked. However, the info presented here by several is great info--especially for me who is 90% into doubles and 10% into hunting. But I've had 14 trips to Africa and 3 to Australia in addition to a bit of hunting here in Alaska since '85.

I would find it interesting, all thing being equal, to compare pressure (strain) with lead bullets cast from soft lead, wheelweight, and hard linotype. In my doubles I shoot Woodleighs, Hornady round nose .458s, Ken Smith's bullets, lead conicals, lead conicals, etc. All seem to have their place even if one of the places is appearance. Hell, I've even shot game with old Kynoch and Eley ammo.
Cheers fellas,
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
Gents:
I read this thread with great interest. It is sad when folks can't disagree without being called names, cussed at, or being attacked. However, the info presented here by several is great info--especially for me who is 90% into doubles and 10% into hunting. But I've had 14 trips to Africa and 3 to Australia in addition to a bit of hunting here in Alaska since '85.

I would find it interesting, all thing being equal, to compare pressure (strain) with lead bullets cast from soft lead, wheelweight, and hard linotype. In my doubles I shoot Woodleighs, Hornady round nose .458s, Ken Smith's bullets, lead conicals, lead conicals, etc. All seem to have their place even if one of the places is appearance. Hell, I've even shot game with old Kynoch and Eley ammo.
Cheers fellas,
Cal

cheers Cal! I will keep on visiting your posts and what else hoping to learn anything I can on doubles.

Doubles are sure fun to shoot with anything.
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
No Steve, it is in the delelopmental stage and it will be awhile before it is published. I'll notify all when it is.

465H&H

Too bad, That would be two of us with articles in the same issue.

Cal,
yes Cal, DR's are fun to shoot, even with ammo purchased at Wal-Mart.

Steve

Ngana:
Two weeks ago Wal Mart had a sale as hunting season is over and I bought all of their .600 nitro ammo, brass, and .600 Woodleigh bullets--both softs and solids.
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
Ngana:
Two weeks ago Wal Mart had a sale on .600 nitro ammo and .600 Woodleigh bullets. I cleaned them out. WM sells unique items here in Alaska.
Cal

I just missed out on all the 450-.400 3-1/4 that the Glendale Arizona store had last week. It was on close out for 39.99 for 20. BTW, what brand brass was it?

Ngana:
Bertram.
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
Ngana:
Two weeks ago Wal Mart had a sale as hunting season is over and I bought all of their .600 nitro ammo, brass, and .600 Woodleigh bullets--both softs and solids.
Cal

You only got the stuff from the valley store. I got the Anchortown stores cleaned out.

quote:

Originally posted by Nganga:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
No Steve, it is in the delelopmental stage and it will be awhile before it is published. I'll notify all when it is.

465H&H

Too bad, That would be two of us with articles in the same issue.

Cal,
yes Cal, DR's are fun to shoot, even with ammo purchased at Wal-Mart.

Steve

Steve,

Nice buff article!

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by Nganga:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
No Steve, it is in the delelopmental stage and it will be awhile before it is published. I'll notify all when it is.

465H&H

Too bad, That would be two of us with articles in the same issue.

Cal,
yes Cal, DR's are fun to shoot, even with ammo purchased at Wal-Mart.

Steve

Steve,

Nice buff article!

465H&H

Thank you, very much appreciated.

Steve

quote:

Originally posted by Gerard:

quote:

465H&H:
Bridger may have been the first but North Fork and GS Custom quickly followed.

If you consider the complete time line, it is actually:

1992 - GSC starts production of the HP range of bullets.
1997 - GSC introduces the first multiple drive band small arms bullet available to reloaders in soft (HV) and solid (FN).
2000/1 - Northfork starts making soft nose bullets.
2002 - GSC introduces the SP range of target/tactical drive band bullets.
2002/3 - Bridger tests drive band FN type bullets and starts selling.
2003 - Northfork starts making FN type solids and Barnes introduces grooved TSX bullets

Gerard,

Thanks for setting sumbuddy who don't know straight, on the timeline.

John of "Bridger Bullets" was really just doing some bullets as a hobby, with idle machine time from other business he did.
I got the impression he turned out small batches in his garage or other machine shop, sort of like Robgunbuilder is capable of. Good man too, John. Is he still kicking?

Hats off to GSC as first with the monometal, copper, true-drive-banded, truncated-7-degree-cone, Flat-Nose Solid!
1997, eh?

Jack Carter did his Trophy Bonded Sledge Hammer bronze solid with bonded lead core and thick, bronze Flat Nose in the late 1980's,
circa 1988,
about the same time he started making his Bear Claw bonded softpoint.
Federal was factory loading them by 1995 in their premium ammo line. Speer bought Jack carter's designs about 1992?



And the Original Jack carter TBSH Solid had a BBW#13 nose profile, or very similar.

But GSC would never consider morphing their FN solid with a BBW#13 nose profile?
North Fork did,
after they flattered by imitation the GSC FN, as per Gerard's timeline.

Those Federal solids DO NOT HAVE A BBW#13 profile and are a round nose flat if you want to call it that. I used these on buffalo and they ended up sideways against the hide bent like a banana on a broadside shoulder shot at 20 yards. On that same buffalo I had Woodleigh soilds kick up dust on the other side as they zipped right on thru. I was still a RN fan at the time.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Those Federal solids DO NOT HAVE A BBW#13 profile and are a round nose flat if you want to call it that. I used these on buffalo and they ending up sideways against the hide bent like a banana.

Sam

Sam, Jack Carter was trying, at that time he did not understand all of the factors involved with terminal penetration of solids, that we now have narrowed down to 8 known factors that influence straight line, and depth of penetration of solids. Jack and Finn were testing much like you and I have, back in the day. Some of the issues then they were testing in "Dry" material, thinking they were being the hardest on the bullets, but what they did not understand is that it had to be aqueous to achieve proper results. Jack and Finn were on the right path, but just did not get far enough with it at the time. They were concentrating more on the Bear Claw I think, and figured the solid was good enough. From what I can understand their thinking at the time also was that the flat nose of the "Sledgehammer" was hitting things harder, which was very true, but that is where their thinking was, and not so much on depth of, or straight line penetration, at least not to the extents that has been done after........

Michael

Wetting newspapers does not make an aqueous medium.Why is it so difficult to shoot the solids through water and post the results? Shoot it through something that is made from 90% water.Surely someone supposedely testing solids every day has done this be it Jack Carter or anyone-heck even someone like shootaway could have done the test.

Hi Rip,

I will have to confirm the timeline with Mike (the original owner of NF). I was lead to believe that he started designing and testing the first bonded bullet in 1998. Not that it true matters.

While our "new designed" nose (it is now 3 years old) of the solid looks very similar to the 13° BBW they were actually being designed at the same time without the knowledge of each other's work. Ours took longer as we had to test and develop for every cartridge. That is not to say we did not work with Michael and try to discover the best nose frontal area. Our purpose for change was to help feeding. Many factory rifles are still "rough" or the feed ramp is quite frankly wrong. Thus, our customers using the previous solids did run into feeding troubles especially those having a CZ in 9.3. Here is where a company takes the .375 (which works perfectly) and just puts a smaller hole down the barrel. Guess what, feeding now becomes an issue with more radically designed bullets. We have our own formula as to the nose profile although they do look similar but ours are not 13°. As our testing went we discovered that they did penetrate slightly better. This was not our main goal but we get lucky sometimes. We also wanted to add a specific crimp groove to allow for easier reloading and help reduce the fear of reloading that many customers have because they do not have the extensive knowledge that many have on this forum. Either way, we both came to the same conclusions and the designs reflect it. Plus, it always makes a fun conversion between Michael and I over some "Southern Wine".

Regards,
John

quote:

Originally posted by North Fork:
Hi Rip,

I will have to confirm the timeline with Mike (the original owner of NF). I was lead to believe that he started designing and testing the first bonded bullet in 1998. Not that it true matters.

While our "new designed" nose (it is now 3 years old) of the solid looks very similar to the 13° BBW they were actually being designed at the same time without the knowledge of each other's work. Ours took longer as we had to test and develop for every cartridge. That is not to say we did not work with Michael and try to discover the best nose frontal area. Our purpose for change was to help feeding. Many factory rifles are still "rough" or the feed ramp is quite frankly wrong. Thus, our customers using the previous solids did run into feeding troubles especially those having a CZ in 9.3. Here is where a company takes the .375 (which works perfectly) and just puts a smaller hole down the barrel. Guess what, feeding now becomes an issue with more radically designed bullets. We have our own formula as to the nose profile although they do look similar but ours are not 13°. As our testing went we discovered that they did penetrate slightly better. This was not our main goal but we get lucky sometimes. We also wanted to add a specific crimp groove to allow for easier reloading and help reduce the fear of reloading that many customers have because they do not have the extensive knowledge that many have on this forum. Either way, we both came to the same conclusions and the designs reflect it. Plus, it always makes a fun conversion between Michael and I over some "Southern Wine".

Regards,
John

Thank you John! good information! I use NORTH FORK bullets exclusively today in my double rifles, and my 375H&H bolt and single shot rifles for hunting!

That is not to say anything against the other bore riders on the market today! They are fine bullets as well.

I still have 150 470NE CPS and FPS bullets, and 100 Soft nose 9.3 bullets for my 9.3X74R double rifle. All have worked perfectly for me!

Keep up the good work!

Hi North Fork John,
1998 for the beginnings of the North Fork Soft Point certainly sounds right, no argument here.
Let us just expand upon Gerard's timeline a bit, just for fun and future reference.
This will include some solids also, maybe even the Woodleigh.

1932:
Fred Barnes "original soft point" Barnes Bullets-- 99% pure copper-tube jacket and similarly pure non-bonded lead core.

1947:
John Nosler's "Partition" bullet.

1949 or earlier:
P.O. Ackley Soft Point bullet with solid copper base section and a non-bonded lead nose core. Many will copy it, and improve upon it.
Left to right, from a Mike Brady article photo, P.O. Ackley, Jack Ashurst, Bill Steigers (Bitteroot Bonded Core), Mike Brady (grooved and bonded North Fork):



1967: Nosler Zipedo bullet with grooved shank similar to North Fork grooving to come about 30 years later.



1979:
Randy Brooks of the New "Barnes Bullets" begins selling his "Barnes Solid" which is a monometal, copper-zinc alloy, Round Nose solid.

1984:
Swift A-Frame, a bonded lead-core "Partition on Steroids.

1988:
Jack Carter Trophy Bonded Bear Claw soft point, a P.O. Ackley knock-off plus bonding lead.



1989:
Jack Carter Trophy Bonded Sledge Hammer Solid--not just a flattened round nose solid.

1989:
Barnes X-Bullet is commercially released, Randy brooks began his experiments with the idea about 1985.

1992:
GSC HP monometal copper hollowpoint produced in South Africa.

1992:
Speer buys Trophy Bonded TBBC and TBSH. Quality is rumored to deteriorate.

1997:
GSC's latest monometal copper bullets are the HV (banded hollowpoint) and FN (banded truncated-cone FN solid).

1997:
Barnes XLC Smurf-blue-coated monometal copper hollowpoint.

1998:
Mike Brady adds Nosler Zipedo-type grooving to the solid base section of a P.O. Ackley style soft point, bonds the lead nose core, and ... Voila', the North Fork Soft point is born.

2002:
GSC SP, a banded, pointy, high BC, monometal copper solid.

2002:
Bridger Bullets brass and copper monometal banded FN solids, hobby bullets.

2003:
North Fork "Generation One" banded, monometal copper FP solids, they are "ogived-FN" solids.

2003:
Barnes TSX "Triple Shock" multi-cannelured, monometal copper hollowpoints, flat-based.

????:
North Fork Geneation II FP solids, and CPS, Cup Point "expanding solids."

2008:
Barnes Tipped TSX, TTSX, boat-tailed too.

2010:
North Fork Generation III FP solid.

Lessee ... need to add some dates for Woodleigh, Lehigh, S&H, and CEB ...

I will correct any errors in the above if "sumbuddy who know" different sings out ...

Very interesting Ron. Other than perhaps manufacturing cost, I wonder why Nosler dropped the Zipedo?

Hi Rip,

Good stuff.

It is funny how I like to tell people about PO Ackley and how he actually started a business to sell his bullets. He was the first one (at least in my research) to come up with the lead front core and solid copper shank. TBBC then just took the design and bonded the lead.

As one can see, there is very little under the "sun" in the firearms and ammunition realm. Being a good inventor sometimes just takes common designs and ideas and figures out how to apply them together. Mike Brady did much research before coming up with the NF design. It is obvious he was influenced by those before him.

Cool Zipedo picture, I have always heard of them but never seen them. It also looks like it is a bore rider at the same time. If they would have bonded the lead, maybe none of the these future companies would even be around. You wouldn't have one that I could "borrow" from you?

Thanks for the good post.

Regards,
John

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
Gents:
I read this thread with great interest. It is sad when folks can't disagree without being called names, cussed at, or being attacked. However, the info presented here by several is great info--especially for me who is 90% into doubles and 10% into hunting.
Cheers fellas,
Cal

Cal, as you are no doubt aware, back when folks like Keith, Lott, and others were experimenting with bullet design for rifles, most were being designed for common American chamberings, and those were also used and tested in bolt action single barreled rifles.

That being the case, very little thought was paid to the best designs for double rifles. Even up into the late 1990s there were very few newly made double rifles in the USA, and the doubles that were here were vintage doubles from the UK, and Europe, and many over 100 yrs old at that time. Some in not too great shape coming out of the jungles of India and made form very soft thin barrel steel. By happy accident the various bore riders came off the benches of three or four experimenter’s benches that were really fine bullets for double rifles were suddenly available.

This was a boon to guys like you and I, who live and breathe double rifles. Many years before all the new types came out about the only way we could enjoy hunting with our doubles was with custom made bullet molds and lead alloyed bullets. So when the new bore riders came out, and started to include the diameters needed in the proper weights for the large nitro express cartridges a lot of these dust gathers starting working in the game fields again, and breathed new life into the double rifle community.

Once this happened, Makers started building new double rifles, and are now made more than anytime in history. In the USA the use of double rifles has jumped ten fold over the last 15 years. Additionally the understanding of the way double rifles work has jumped by leaps and bounds. This is a real boon to the double rifle owner, because we seldom see the gun magazine writers writing wrong information where double rifles are concerned, and the ammo companies like Federal, and Hornady and others starting to make NE ammo in the USA for the first time.

It hasn’t become a Wal-Mart sale item yet but is getting better by the day! Fine cases and bullets being now available and dies along with large loading presses available it is taking a lot of the pain out of double rifle use.

When I bought my first double rifle, I couldn’t shoot it because there was no ammo available in the USA for it, in 1958 and I couldn’t make cases out of any common parent case and dies weren’t readily available anyplace either!

The DRSS down here in Texas and up in Alaska have been able to allow a lot of new guys in the USA to experience shooting some fine old double rifles like your new find!

Congratulations Sir!
''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

quote:

When I bought my first double rifle, I couldn’t shoot it because there was no ammo available in the USA for it, in 1958 and I couldn’t make cases out of any common parent case and dies weren’t readily available anyplace either!

Mac

Re the above, fro talking to old timers here in Aus, in the 70's and 80's, they used to buy ammo from Auctions in the UK (and factory stuff) and have it shipped out.

Then of course with the Aussie make do attitude,
they fathomed dies etc and learnt to reload.

They used to empty Cordite from one case into another case just to get powder !!!


It was also why some 450/400 3 1/4" guns were made to take Thick rim cases
as these were more readily available.

quote:

Originally posted by 505G:

Mac

Re the above, fro talking to old timers here in Aus, in the 70's and 80's, they used to buy ammo from Auctions in the UK (and factory stuff) and have it shipped out.

Then of course with the Aussie make do attitude,
they fathomed dies etc and learnt to reload.

They used to empty Cordite from one case into another case just to get powder !!!


It was also why some 450/400 3 1/4" guns were made to take Thick rim cases
as these were more readily available.

You are right and companies like Woodlieh producing duplicate shaped bullets helped a lot. On the case rim thickness it was a problem in the other direction as well. I have a Westley Richards double rifle chambered for the old 500/450 #1 Express and the only case I can make brass from for it is the 475#2 case and the rim must be turned down on the front side to to fit the rim recess for the thin rim of the 500/450#1. I have almost cut the rim recess in the chambers deep enough to accept the rim of the 475#2 but keep hoping some one will make cases for it. That brass is a pain to form, and turn down the rim, so I rarely shoot the rifle!

quote:

You are right and companies like Woodlieh producing duplicate shaped bullets helped a lot.

One of the reasons Geoff started making bullets was because it was his friends (and him) who owned the English guns and therefore needed to shoot them, both in hunting and competition (Big Game Rifle Club).

When H&H came out to visit in the 80's, they couldn't believe the number of old guns being shot, and shot accurately including BP and Paradox's.

Okay, we are all in agreement that (1) Woodleigh solids work best in our doubles or (2) or that Woodleigh solids should be relegated to the scrap heap of history in favor of flat nose monometals.

See, that wasn't so hard. Now, does anyone have any thoughts on OSR? Todd?

I'll agree with No. 2!

And finally, some proof! An actual picture of OSR!



Dave, you are a shit stirrer of the first order!

No. 1 for me, but at least Todd's a bloody decent bloke to disagree with!

quote:

Originally posted by North Fork:
Hi Rip,

Good stuff.

It is funny how I like to tell people about PO Ackley and how he actually started a business to sell his bullets. He was the first one (at least in my research) to come up with the lead front core and solid copper shank. TBBC then just took the design and bonded the lead.

John,
Thanks for that, I got confused in thinking P.O. Ackley bonded his nose core. Not so. I corrected above. So Bitteroot Bonded (Steigers) was first to add that, then, Swift, then Trophy Bonded, Then North Fork, eh?

As one can see, there is very little under the "sun" in the firearms and ammunition realm. Being a good inventor sometimes just takes common designs and ideas and figures out how to apply them together. Mike Brady did much research before coming up with the NF design. It is obvious he was influenced by those before him.

Mike Brady also said that he found samples of the P.O. Ackley-style bullet from the 1930's and who knows if someone didn't try it before that?

Cool Zipedo picture, I have always heard of them but never seen them. It also looks like it is a bore rider at the same time. If they would have bonded the lead, maybe none of the these future companies would even be around. You wouldn't have one that I could "borrow" from you?

That photo is is just a snag from the internet, there is an old advertisement for them out there too. I think those Zipedo grooved shanks were just formed by impact extrusion of the cups that were filled with non-bonded lead.They were made as 22-cal and up, how far up in caliber I do not know. Varmint and deer bullets, no more. Old ad for sale here, can't copy this:

http://www.vintagepaperads.com...-Design_p_47915.html

From 1967


Thanks for the good post.

Regards,
John

I just have to get back on topic here and at least post some Woodleigh dates, found in Geoff McDonald's "History" at the Woodleigh website. For convenience, a little summary:
http://www.woodleighbullets.com.au/
http://www.woodleighbullets.co...ce/woodleigh-history

The little cut on his forehead, well above right eye, is too high to be a scope bite, but this looks like a mugshot as often done to document the "hero's" battle wound.
Behemoth handgun foresight kiss?



1982
Woodleigh soft Nose prototypes arrive, gilding metal cups with non-bonded cores.
Geoff McDonald was working at farming in Australia, while playing at making a .530-caliber barrel for his wildcat on a 460 Wby case, and some bullets for that,
plus bullets for his and friends' standard caliber big bores, .458 .475, and .505, and more calibers followed. Geoff McDonald started as a wildcatting Riflecrank needing custom-caliber projectiles to replace his cast lead. Tested the softs on NT water buffalo.

1984
Woodleigh FMJ "SOLID" prototypes.
More experimenting on water buffalo helped establish what thickness of steel was needed in the jacket:
Shooting into the skull and spine in-line was a severe enough test.




1985
Shot Show exhibit in USA, snags an order from Jim BeLL, who had theretofore been responsible for keeping the old doubles alive in Australia, and worldwide,
with his classic brass and ammo that everyone else stopped making for the old double rifles.
Jim BeLL brass helped birth the Woodleigh bullets, before they were a gleam in Geoff McDonald's eye.
Jim loaded Woodleigh bullets in his BeLL ammo from 1986 to 1989.
Jim sold out to PMC after that.

1988
Shot Show: Federal Corp. of USA orders a sample of bullets and prompts Geoff to improve the bullets by bonding the cores.
Woodleigh Weldcores are born:
Flux the cups internally, then pour in the molten lead and control the temperatures so as not to soften the cups yet still thoroughly bond the lead, just like lead/tin solder bonding a copper plumbing joint.






Early 1990s:
Norma ammo of Sweden uses Woodleigh bullets, including in Weatherby factory ammo, and Kynamco's Kynoch line follows suit.

2007:
Norma's PH line of ammo uses Woodleigh bullets.
Tougher Protected Point (PP) softs are added to the Round Nose (RN) softs, as well as super-heavy weight bullets have been added along the way.
Various recommended impact velocities for the Weldcores, soft ones and the harder ones ...




2009:
Hydrostatically Stabilized solid brass bullet.




2013:
Round plastic caps are available to improve the feeding of the Hydrostatically Stabilized brass bullets.
Like pasties over the cup-pointed nipples on the nose of the bullet.

A stainless steel, small, flat pastie is on the way too?
Is this to make the "Hydro" brass solid a deeper penetrator in bone?

BTW, I also gleaned that the Steel-jacketed Woodleigh FMJ solid is made to smaller than nominal groove diameter,
0.0005" to 0.001" smaller, 1/2 to 1 thou.

How about these "VLD" Woodleigh Solids?:



Will correct or add to above if "sumbuddy who know" different.

quote:

Originally posted by BenKK:
No. 1 for me, but at least Todd's a bloody decent bloke to disagree with!

quote:

Originally posted by 505G:
Woodleigh's have always been tapered from the base forwards so only the last part of the bullet is bore diameter.

Jeez man.
You got that wrong. You need to rephrase.
As already pointed out:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
505,

Not so I even have some of the old ones before they changed the nose shape in .465 diameter. The ones before they had a cannalure. they are definately grove diameter for most of their length.

465H&H

A bullet that was bore diameter at the base and smaller everywhere forward, like 505G said of Woodleigh, would not engrave at all.
It would be like shooting a long conical in a smoothbore.
10 foot groups at 100 yards?

OK, 505G misspoke meaning not to say bore diameter, but rather, groove diameter.

Even so, that is not so.
The softs are made to groove diameter below the ogive,
and the FMJ, steel-jacketed solids are made 1/2 to 1 thousandth of an inch below groove diameter.
The bearing surfaces of all the bullets are parallel-sided, certainly everything below the cannelure,
down to the base treatment (beveled jacket on the softs, jacket folded inward on the solids, not tapered throughout.