Not trying to start a pissing contest but I was wondering how many DG hunters have stuck with the Woodleigh RN solids and how many are now shooting the flat nose solids from North Fork, CEB, and Barnes for buffalo and elephant? If you have had a problem with either, let us know.

I don't have a massive amount of experience but have used the Woodleigh solids in 411 and 458 with complete satisfaction.

I am afraid that there is a great deal of PII , that is Preoccupation with Inconsequential Increments when it comes to solids. Dead is a very measurable end point and once you have shot through any animal with a solid you have done about all you can do.

Dave I think the (extensive) penetration tests and field reports pretty well established the superiority of the FNS, hell even the Hornady solid has a flat nose. That said I use Woodleighs and DGS in my 450NE VErney, reason being, I can't get the CEB solids to shoot under 4"@50 while the WL and Hornady print 2" or less and both are prove performers. jorge

Sometimes "good enough" is and occasionally not.

Can't see anything wrong with finding and using something better - even of only incrementally so.

In the comparison my friend Dave asks about the evidence is that FN solids track and penetrate better, whether GSC, CEB, NF or other flavors.

Fellas:
I've shot several buffalo and hippo with Woodleigh solids. They worked fine and weighed 898-899 upon recovery from the original 900-grain weight. I'm sure others work will, too, but if something works for me I don't look further. Plus, they are a traditional looking bullet and that's important to me.
Cheers, gents.
Cal

I've used Wodleigh Solids and would again
as they work.

Have also tried / used the Woodleigh Hydros
which work very well indeed.


Which makes me ask, why are Woodleigh Hydros
not mentioned in discussions when the others
are - see CCMDocs post just above this one.

quote:

Originally posted by 505G:
Which makes me ask, why are Woodleigh Hydros
not mentioned in discussions when the others
are - see CCMDocs post just above this one.

It has nothing to do with their performance - which is right up there with the Barnes FN Banded Solids, the CEB Safari Solids, the GSC FN Solids, and the NF FP Solids.

I do believe it has everything to do with:
1) the cost of the bullets being double the cost of the bullets just mentioned, and
2) them being quite often listed in US outlets as 'out of stock'.

Some individuals will use the bullets regardless of cost, just as they've done with US manufacture monometal bullets with them being double the cost of traditional C&C bullets. What will cause them to not use, or even try, the Hydros is when the bullets are unavailable.

Anyway that's my perception...

I'm quite happy to stick with them. Quite happy to hunt with the old classics as they usually work quite well if not better.

Yep, and me. I reckon end to end on a full grown cow Water Buffalo and out the other side is plenty of penetration.

I understand that people want to try new, possibly improve but I'm like the poster above,
get a load and stick to it and go hunting.

Third picture down, 577NE. Read the comments about penetration. 68 inches of straight line penetration with the CEB, 14 inches of straight line penetration with the Woodleigh. That settles the matter for me!

http://forums.accuratereloadin...201069141#1201069141

Putting theory to practice, I shot an ele cow with the 750gr CEB BBW#13 solid last october. Frontal brain shot that was placed a bit too high. The bullet was recovered just in front of the base of her tail! That doubly settles the matter for me!



Bill C. wrote a hunt report earlier this year about his ele bull hunt with Buzz where he used the Woodleigh FMJ solid. Of course the bull went down with a single shot and from an ancedotal standpoint, that's perfect. However, reading a bit closer, the camp staff did an autopsy on the bull and found the bullet lodged right at the base of the skull. In fact, he reported that when they hit the skull with the water hose, the bullet dropped onto the ground. IMO, that's marginal penetration. Yes, it was on the correct side of the margin, but there was no room for error.

The only Woodleigh I'd ever consider using is the Hydro, but as Cappo stated, they are always listed as "out of stock" here in the US.
You guys can stick with the "traditional looking" Woodleigh bullets if you want to, but remember they ARE NOT "traditional" bullets such as the Kynoch. Compared to the Kynoch, the Woodleigh bullet is "improved" in that it is a steel shanked projectile, in an attempt to give it more strength. So if you're shooting an "improved" bullet anyway, why not shoot the MOST "improved" bullet, being a Flat Nosed mono?

And we haven't even discussed the difference in barrel strains where the CEB is the easiest on barrels with the Woodleigh FMJ being the hardest!!

quote:

And we haven't even discussed the difference in barrel strains where the CEB is the easiest on barrels with the Woodleigh FMJ being the hardest!!

For the number of rounds people fire, you'd get more wear from cleaning the rifle over 20 years !!!

Ref to the link you had, how come I can put a 505 Gibbs solid end to end on a Full grown female buffalo but you only get 14 inches of penetration from a 577 solid ?

And I have seen solids out of a 577 go through a Buffalo as well, albeit sideways.

Gentlemen,
have any of you used Woodleigh Solids on elephant? caliber .416? How was your experience?
I am hunting tuskless in two weeks,my main rifle just screwed up,I am thinking of switching to my K-gun 500/416NE,I will have to go with factory load data & it is only available with Woody soft & solids,no time to test anything else,the temps are too low where I am & I don't have much time left,thanks much.

Happy to stick with Woodleigh solids. Reliable classics.

quote:

Originally posted by 505G:

quote:

And we haven't even discussed the difference in barrel strains where the CEB is the easiest on barrels with the Woodleigh FMJ being the hardest!!

For the number of rounds people fire, you'd get more wear from cleaning the rifle over 20 years !!!

Ref to the link you had, how come I can put a 505 Gibbs solid end to end on a Full grown female buffalo but you only get 14 inches of penetration from a 577 solid ?

And I have seen solids out of a 577 go through a Buffalo as well, albeit sideways.

Bingo Nigel. Sideways! Not tracking in a straight line. That's the entire point of the FN vs RN debate.

By the way, "from the number of rounds [which] people fire" wound one get more wear from cleaning? The guy who shoots 6 rounds out of a box of 20 solids before heading over to Africa, with the expectation that his PH will pull his ass out of the fire should things go "pear shaped", or the guy who shoots a hundred or more rounds per month through his double, actually preparing and getting ready to go on safari with a double gun and just staying proficient with the weapon year round? I've had my new VC now since early April I think it was, and I've got just short of 800 rounds through it at this point, including the 2 months it was being fine tuned by JJ. Funny how all the raging argument used to be that mono bullets would destroy your double gun barrels, but then after it was shown that the "traditional" FMJ bullets by Woodleigh and Hornady were No. 1 and No. 2 in terms of the highest strains produced, all of a sudden, barrel strains caused by a bullet are insignificant?! Can't be both ways!

Other than the 14 inches vs. full buffalo being two different impact mediums, I'll let Michael and Sam answer the first question as it is their data. Of course the 505 Gibbs and a 577NE are two completely different performers in terms of penetration, the 505 being a smaller diameter bullet with higher velocity, which should theoretically give more penetration, as long as it tracks straight! The salient point for me, with Michael and Sam's data being that in similar test media, the FN is far superior. I think Michael has been very clear all along that the measured penetration in his test media isn't to be taken literally inch for inch in actual animal tissue, but is rather a good indication of how the two bullets compare to each other, impact media being identical.

I notice you didn't mention the Woodleigh FMJ that just barely made it to the base of the skull in Bill C's. report however. Again, certainly good enough in that case since it killed the bull, but there was no margin for error as the penetration was JUST enough.

But Nigel, if the Woodleigh FMJ solid is the end all be all, good enough bullet, what is the purpose of the Hydro mono? Was it to lower barrel strain? Was it to provide better straight line penetration? Why complicate the inventory and manufacturing process if the original bullet is "good enough"?

I meant side on to the Buffalo, not as much animal to pass through, NOT exit sideways.

But yes, I take note of what you say and others.


"But Nigel, if the Woodleigh FMJ solid is the end all be all, good enough bullet, what is the purpose of the Hydro mono? Was it to lower barrel strain? Was it to provide better straight line penetration? Why complicate the inventory and manufacturing process if the original bullet is "good enough"?"

Don't know.

Todd

I don't think Geoff came up with the original Hydro idea but helped refine it, manufacture it and test it etc.

And yes to both Gotcha's !!! LOL

quote:

Originally posted by Bill73:
Gentlemen,
have any of you used Woodleigh Solids on elephant? caliber .416? How was your experience?
I am hunting tuskless in two weeks,my main rifle just screwed up,I am thinking of switching to my K-gun 500/416NE,I will have to go with factory load data & it is only available with Woody soft & solids,no time to test anything else,the temps are too low where I am & I don't have much time left,thanks much.

Bill:

I have no reason to shoot any solids but just the same, it's fun to shoot a few. Like you, I could never find any load data for for anything other than 410 grain Woodleigh softs and solids in my 500/.416 so that and Hornady softs is pretty much what I shoot. However, my .416 Rigby is pretty much sighted in with 350 grain Barnes TSX and flat nose solid bullets.

I have shot elephants, and cape buff with Woodleigh Solids with my 450 No2, 450/400 3 1/4", and the 9,3x74R.

In all cases they gave excellent penetration.

I have also shot elephants with the 450 No2 using the 450gr North Fork FN Solid. It also gave excellent service and they do penetrate deeper than the Woodleigh's.

As I have a few Woodleigh Solids left in all the above calibres I will be using them on my next trip.

Bill 73, I would not hesitate to use Woodleigh Solids in a 500/416, on elephants or cape buff.

I shot two ele with my .475 No, 2 using Woodleigh solids. Both frontal brain and great penetration over 40 inches with straight line/minute obturation. I shot a buff ass-end to throat with 500 grain CEB 13 .458 and that speaks for itself. They both worked for me.

Dutch

quote:

Bill C. wrote a hunt report earlier this year about his ele bull hunt with Buzz where he used the Woodleigh FMJ solid. Of course the bull went down with a single shot and from an ancedotal standpoint, that's perfect. However, reading a bit closer, the camp staff did an autopsy on the bull and found the bullet lodged right at the base of the skull. In fact, he reported that when they hit the skull with the water hose, the bullet dropped onto the ground. IMO, that's marginal penetration. Yes, it was on the correct side of the margin, but there was no room for error.

Todd

"but there was no room for error."

If you are going for a brain shot on an elephant and it penetrates the full length of the brain, drops the animal and it dies, why do you need more penetration ?

It's not like shooting an animal in the hip where the further it goes the more damage it does, once it has gone through the brain their is no more brain to go through ?

We all know an Elephants skull is as hard as
but dead is dead.

"In fact, he reported that when they hit the skull with the water hose, the bullet dropped onto the ground."

That's like the two sides of the argument about whether people like the bullet to exit and create two wound channels or to stop just under the skin on the off side.

Nigel,

The point being that if it JUST barely penetrated the full length of the brain, front to back, depending on the angle of the shot in the first place, one could easily see a situation whereby penetration to the brain could be compromised.

As I stated, of course, since the bullet JUST exited the back of the brain, it got the job done. But that is only part of the story IMO. I watched Bill's video and the shot was a bit of an angled shot, partially frontal, partially side brain. And it JUST penetrated and exited the brain but no further.

Now imagine a situation like the one in Ivan Carter's video where the ele bull came charging through the bush, and he had to shoot almost straight up through the trunk, then top of the mouth in order to reach the brain. Under those circumstances, you might have twice the amount of bone and flesh to go through before reaching the brain. If you only got the amount of penetration as described by Bill, it's possible the shot could stop short and in that particular instance, where Ivan had to step to the side to prevent being squashed, your entire day could seriously be ruined.

But hey, I get it. Maximum performance isn't desired by everyone who hunts. There is a group that is more than satisfied with the minimum necessary because the PH will always be there to save the day. Just look at all the guys who take "a scoped .375" into the jesse after ele or buff. It works ... as long as nothing goes wrong.

As Michael458 would say .. Hehehe!

Woodleigh FMJ "Round Nose" Solids?

HEH HEH HEH.................

Wow, seems we have heard something about these some time ago................

Let's see, Hi Dave, jorge, Doc, Nigel, Cappy, Todd, Bill, Tony, Dutch.... I see most of us are in attendance, on the RN Side we are only missing 465HH........... How many years we been doing this? I reckon we are about to roll on an anniversary of 5 years as I calculate, and we are still on the same ole story.... RN vs FN...... HEH HEH HEH..............

OK... Here is for the RN Crowd.....

And this is for the FN Crowd... Which happen to be an extremely astute and perceptive bunch of chaps....
And, not only that, but the FN Crowd have been very successful in their endeavors with a proper bullet up the spout,
in fact, I just don't recall any questions at all, or any failures at all in any of their adventures of the last few
years? Hmmmmmmm?????? I wonder?

RN Boys, give it up, nostalgia will only take you so far, and to deny this is merely foolish on your part. Remember, I have the "Data", and many failures of RN to remind you of what is always forgotten by the Woodleigh Cult, I keep those bookmarked to remind folks because about every six months or so the RN Groupies forget things...... HEH HEH....... But I won't embarrass you unless you force my hand.... LOL.............

Now Dave, I can answer your question for you.....

quote:

I was wondering how many DG hunters have stuck with the Woodleigh RN solids

Most of the Woodleigh Cult will always use Woodleigh FMJ Round Nose bullets, regardless of absolute and known facts concerning the less than stellar performance record since the inception of any RN design, which is inherently unstable in any and all aqueous material or tissue. It is not a matter of IF it will go unstable, but at what point that it WILL go unstable. Fortunately for many hunters, it is stopped before it can go unstable in heavy bone. Most times it can be successful, but much of the time it will not be, and there are many cases that they have been unsuccessful, veered off course, and lost stability, and that is sad for those who don't know any better and loose a fine animal, elephant, because of it, and don't even realize it. Don't make me bring those instances up guys, you have seen them before....... And all of you RN Woodleigh Cult's... Yes, I already know that "I have used Woodleighs and never had a problem"... I have heard that before, like maybe a 1000 times.... HEH HEH....

Dave, the Woodleigh Cult will ALWAYS use Woodleigh RN FMJ no matter what, some numbnuts even like just the way they Look??? A rather strange and odd behavior I think............. I don't quite get that.......

Those that are "Enlightened", and that are capable of understanding the dynamics of Terminal Penetration, and how a properly designed solid is supposed to work, will always take measures to make sure they have the best they can get so as to not only make their experience successful, but to also take other factors into consideration. Factors that with Dangerous Game go beyond mere nostalgia, considerations that you are not alone in the bush, and by your actions you place not only yourself in danger, but others around you, thus they use bullets that are proven performers, that are designed to do the job and complete the mission at hand, with extreme prejudice..............

No, its no pissing contest at all...... And if it was, every one of us has been knee deep in it for 5 yrs and by damned we are all still here and having a great time of it and we still do what we do. The RN Crowd cannot deny any longer the performance issues, as they will all state, they know, but yet they choose incorrectly anyway.... HEH...........

Todd, Brent returned a few weeks ago, had a charging elephant, hit it with his 500 MDM, 500 #13 Solid at 2350 or so, frontal, found bullet all the way to the rear hip, much like yours, elephant hit the dirt on the spot, Brent said 7-8 feet of dead straight penetration.... I shot a pretty good bull in July, 458 B&M, 450 #13 Solid 2200 fps, through both shoulders, through the heart, down in 30-40 yds stone cold.. 450 #13 Exited, dead straight, might still be going....... The success of this bullet in all calibers just keeps adding up and adding up.............

Well, ya'll know how I felt long before this post... I just found it and thought I would drop in and say hi...


Enjoy Boys....
Michael

Thanks for the help

Take the 500/416! Unless you want me to send you my 450/400?

Hope you have a great hunt, Bal!

A ball peen hammer will drive a nail but you won't see a carpenter using one.

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:
Take the 500/416! Unless you want me to send you my 450/400?

Hope you have a great hunt, Bal!

Rusty,
That is a sweet offer,I am tempted ,thank you sir.

I just returned from a tuskless hunt in sept. Shot a very large tuskless. Frontal brain shot went in just a bit too low and under brain, close enough to pin her but not lights out. 500 gr CEB solid went all the way to the hip bone. Not sure i understand the too much penetration thought. All is fine when you make the first shot and less penetration is fine then, but for the oh crap shots i want as much penetration as I can get.

I don't have the experience of many or most of you but the Woodleighs seem to work for me. Recovered bullets (grizz, cape buff, water buff, giraffe, hippo) retain their weight good and hold their shape--both solids and softs. And, I do like the way they look.
Call me numbnuts, I guess.
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by brent ebeling:
I just returned from a tuskless hunt in sept. Shot a very large tuskless. Frontal brain shot went in just a bit too low and under brain, close enough to pin her but not lights out. 500 gr CEB solid went all the way to the hip bone. Not sure i understand the too much penetration thought. All is fine when you make the first shot and less penetration is fine then, but for the oh crap shots i want as much penetration as I can get.

You said it brother! I'm with you on that one. I think the "over penetration" concept must be akin to the "overkill" theory. Good enough is good enough, until it isn't good enough on that possibly rare occasion. I prefer to eliminate the possibility of that rare occasion to the maximum extent possible.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill73:
Gentlemen,
have any of you used Woodleigh Solids on elephant? caliber .416? How was your experience?
I am hunting tuskless in two weeks,my main rifle just screwed up,I am thinking of switching to my K-gun 500/416NE,I will have to go with factory load data & it is only available with Woody soft & solids,no time to test anything else,the temps are too low where I am & I don't have much time left,thanks much.

I have shot a number of elephant with Woodleigh solids and their performance is very good for brain shots. Their performance is adequate for body shots if the brain shot fails.

For second and any additional follow on shots, a flat nose like a North Fork will provide greater penetration, which is an advantage for body shots.

I have had flat nose solids deform and veer on brain shots more than Woodleigh solids. The Woodleighs do better penetrating bone, in my experience. So I load the fist barrel with a Woodleigh and the second with a North Fork.

I have killed a total of eighteen elephants, so the smaple is not small, and in addition, have tested bullets and loads in dead elephants I have killed. 416 Woodleighs were found where they ought to be found in the few elephants shot with a 416 Rigby.

Regarding loading for your trip, the Hogdon Extreme line of powders show very, very minimal velocity change from 50*F to 110*F in my testing, which is as it should be since those powders were developed for the Australian military to be insensitive to temperature changes. Hopefully there is load date with one of the Extreme powders.


JPK

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
I don't have the experience of many or most of you but the Woodleighs seem to work for me. Recovered bullets (grizz, cape buff, water buff, giraffe, hippo) retain their weight good and hold their shape--both solids and softs. And, I do like the way they look.
Call me numbnuts, I guess.
Cal

Cal, obviously beauty is truly in the eyes of the beholder..... HEH..... a .620 Woodleigh FMJ just don't seem be a thing of beauty... LOL.......... And a .620 most certainly has a far different nose profile than any of the other Woodleighs, and it has tested best of Woodleigh FMJ larger bores here, so it comes as no surprise at all that you have been successful with it on buffalo and hippo........

http://forums.accuratereloadin...=452101374&f=1411043

http://forums.accuratereloadin...=643101959&f=1411043

http://forums.accuratereloadin...5461070481&f=1411043

I've killed a lot of buffalo with Woodleigh softs and solids... and some with the Woodleigh Hydros... anyway, with all those taken with the conventional bullet, never once did I think to myself, "I wish I had been using a Hydro." Yep, I am impressed with the Hydro, but - my goodness! - the conventionals work so bloody well, too! I really like the conventional Woodleighs... value for money that works in the bush, day-in, day-out. And I'm proud to be a bit of a traditionalist.

But I respect another fellow's right to choose his own bloody bullet based on his own studies and experiences and reasoning.

quote:

I have had flat nose solids deform and veer on brain shots

Seems to be discounted by most !!!

Hey Michael458 ????

For those disciples of Confiucious, i.e. a picture's worth a thousand words:

michael458:
Don't I only deserve a half-moon, my .458 CEB's were ass-end to throat on the buffalo. By the by, not familiar with anyone who makes .483 dia. flat nose solids. Would have used them if available.

Dutch

You can post all the pics you want.I trust only the words of experienced and honest hunters.
I would go with Woodleigh or Hornady RN or FN solids.

Yes I know how the written word frightens and confuses...

JPK,
many thanks for your input.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Not trying to start a pissing contest

Dave, you crack me up! You really, really do!