quote:

Originally posted by Safaris Botswana Bound:

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Blaser S2 is the best but the others you mentioned are a close second

Dave
I noticed you have a Krighoff and Blser S2
I have the 500.416 Krighoff and .500 Blaser and .500 Searcy , do you prefer your Blaser to Krighoff ??
Regards
Graeme

Graeme:

I prefer shooting the Blaser but for hunting I prefer the Kreighoff. It's lighter and more lively. I will never have a chance to hunt and elephant but if I did, I would take the .470 Blaser and just have someone carry it for me. As you know, they are on the heavy side. My .470 weighs in a 11.66 lbs.

Graeme, you didn't ask my opinion, but that never stopped me before! I have a Blaser S2 in 500NE and K gun in 500/416. Please see my post about my Blaser (Tradition, Beauty and Technology) for part of my answer.
I have never hunted elephant, but if (when) I do I would use my Blaser mainly because of the optics on it and the fact that the recoil is not noticeable. However, for open sights I prefer the K gun as I had a fiber optic front sight put on it and I find it more accurate with open sights than the Blaser. While the Blaser is fast, it does not seem to be as accurate as the K gun ie. less precise aiming at 50 yards. I do also have a scope on the K gun, but it is nowhere near as good as the Zeiss with Blaser QD mounts. I agree that the K gun is lighter and quicker than the Blaser.
Peter.

quote:

Originally posted by SINNER:

Dave,
Respectfully.. The only thing that's hooey is spending $23,000 on a K gun double rifle and thinking there's value there. The K is not designed well imho with that brain fart cocking mechanism, comparing it to a hand made H&H is honestly laughable.

JW,
You will notice most all the brethren haters of $100k + Brit guns here thinking there overpriced and hyped to the moon, have never owned one, don't understand the market for them new or used, and I dare say never will sadly.

The same goes for people who criticize the Krieghoffs. Most have never shot one much less hunted with it. There is value in owning a lower end double. It has introduced me to the double world and I have enjoyed two DG hunts with mine. To me that has value.

Also, it is unfair to compare a $15K rifle to an 100K H&H, WR, English Rigby, etc. The Best English rifles are absolute works of art. A 15K German/American built rifle is a good, solid, accurate, working rifle but not a work of art. I can afford an English Best rifle but would be terrified to place it on a plane to Africa.

Sadly it seems many people believe every gun built in England is better than any other gun. I have handled several English doubles that I felt were out of balance, mostly barrel heavy. I have seen wood to metal fit that is not as good as my K-Gun. There is engraving on some old English doubles that if it appeared on a K-Gun, Merkel, or Blaser it would be ridiculed, but yet since it is on an English double we should bow down to it.

I do get "it", at least about the British Best, but that is only a small percentage of the rifles out there. As for the rest give me a good Heym or Kreighoff.

Well, here is the original question:
"quality, shootability and value retention of the various double rifles out there".
Quality is of course a rather imprecise term, even though everyone thinks they know what it means ie. I can't define it but I know it when I see it.
Value retention is probably fairly obvious although I think we all realize that the market for double rifles is rather limited. So, given this caveat, let's give first place to many old English doubles.
Quality as mentioned above is rather imprecise, and in general, most realize that you get what you pay for. Having said that, some modern double rifles, as stated in previous posts seem to be good value for the money ie. the quality seems to outstrip the price and hence they are a "good value".
"Shootability" is also imprecise (IMHO) it could mean accuracy, fast handling, "absorbs recoil" etc. I think that we can give the "handling" kudos to old English doubles, but I refuse to give anything to them in the accuracy department when compared with my K gun, my M.K. Owen or my Blaser S2. Perhaps owners could comment on this aspect of their old English doubles. Certainly when claims are being made about the utility of these guns, accuracy does not seem to have been mentioned much. This is a pity because accuracy can be objectively measured.
Additionally it should be mentioned that modern guns can take advantage of the newer solid and monometal bullets while there seems to be much anguish over whether or not these should be used in old English doubles.
Peter.

Mike70560:

Superb rant, and you clearly missed my point, but nice try.

Thanks for the compliment on the rant, although I thought it was more of a post.

I guess I am a little slow, what is your point?

The K-gun design sucks which I disagree with, or that you may will lose money buying a new K-Gun as an investment, which I agree with it. Or is it the high end British guns are among, if not, the best firearms on the market, which I also agree.

Please enlighten me.

My post was in reference to DBush bad mouthing English craftsmanship as basically a joke, judging by his continued comments on why the hell anyone would fork out that kind of money on a double etc etc.. This wasn't the first time..

Secondly, I have handled the K doubles and found the cocking mechanism to be of a design that I don't agree with, nor do many in the trade, be it that you find them wonderful that has no bearing on what I believe, so have it its certainly a free world, enjoy your gun! The build quality is ok in my view, I just don’t like the design. Further, he was comparing Krieghoff craftsmanship to that of a best English gun from what I took from it, which I found amusing as anyone would given any remote experience with the highest end double rifles. I have a pretty good handle on British best guns and how they are built and why they cost what they do, so I felt compelled to respond as a collector of these guns.

Anyone can come on here and talk shit, but few actually carry the knowledge from what I can see to actually understand the minute 'niche' section of the market which is ‘best guns’. Jeff Wemmer posts here often, and knows me well, if you require a reference in the future perhaps ask people that buy these guns and use them like us.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
Brett, that realy nice gun is my Zoli. The other one is my Wesley Richards droplock.

Damn nice rifle! What's it chambered in? Ejectors?

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by Mike70560:

quote:

Originally posted by SINNER:

Dave,
Respectfully.. The only thing that's hooey is spending $23,000 on a K gun double rifle and thinking there's value there. The K is not designed well imho with that brain fart cocking mechanism, comparing it to a hand made H&H is honestly laughable.

JW,
You will notice most all the brethren haters of $100k + Brit guns here thinking there overpriced and hyped to the moon, have never owned one, don't understand the market for them new or used, and I dare say never will sadly.

The same goes for people who criticize the Krieghoffs. Most have never shot one much less hunted with it. There is value in owning a lower end double. It has introduced me to the double world and I have enjoyed two DG hunts with mine. To me that has value.

Also, it is unfair to compare a $15K rifle to an 100K H&H, WR, English Rigby, etc. The Best English rifles are absolute works of art. A 15K German/American built rifle is a good, solid, accurate, working rifle but not a work of art. I can afford an English Best rifle but would be terrified to place it on a plane to Africa.

Sadly it seems many people believe every gun built in England is better than any other gun. I have handled several English doubles that I felt were out of balance, mostly barrel heavy. I have seen wood to metal fit that is not as good as my K-Gun. There is engraving on some old English doubles that if it appeared on a K-Gun, Merkel, or Blaser it would be ridiculed, but yet since it is on an English double we should bow down to it.

I do get "it", at least about the British Best, but that is only a small percentage of the rifles out there. As for the rest give me a good Heym or Kreighoff.

My Hollis would put a K gun to shame for about the same money. So no you don't have to fork over a bundle more to get a bundle more. Just saying. And yes I've handled both. As to the engraving I'm assuming you're talking about some of the cartoon animals that appeared on some of the guns. We'll if all you have to engrave by is someone elses description and not first hand view of an animal.........need I say more? That still has nothing to do with craftsmanship of the gun itself or it's functionality. That said there will almost always be lemons in darn near everything.

Brett

Brett,

That is the attitude towards British guns that I was talking about.

First of all you paid way more for that Hollis than I did for my K-Gun. I believe it is the same gun you were looking at in Reno early this year at Champlins booth when I talked to you for a minute. Second it does not put a Krieghoff to shame. It is no more accurate, no more dependable, it may balance better to you, the Hollis has no ejectors, fit and finish on the Krieghoffs are pretty good. Not Best gun good but good. Let's shoot some monolithics out of them, I am not worried about the steel on my gun. One thing that is better will be resale, there is no taking that away.

Your Hollis is a fine rifle, but to say it would put a Krieghoff or Heym, or Searcy to shame is utterly ridiculous.

If this means I do not get it, so be it. I buy these rifles to shoot and hunt. And that I can assure you I get.

quote:

Originally posted by SINNER:
My post was in reference to DBush bad mouthing English craftsmanship as basically a joke, judging by his continued comments on why the hell anyone would fork out that kind of money on a double etc etc.. This wasn't the first time..

Secondly, I have handled the K doubles and found the cocking mechanism to be of a design that I don't agree with, nor do many in the trade, be it that you find them wonderful that has no bearing on what I believe, so have it its certainly a free world, enjoy your gun! The build quality is ok in my view, I just don’t like the design. Further, he was comparing Krieghoff craftsmanship to that of a best English gun from what I took from it, which I found amusing as anyone would given any remote experience with the highest end double rifles. I have a pretty good handle on British best guns and how they are built and why they cost what they do, so I felt compelled to respond as a collector of these guns.

Anyone can come on here and talk shit, but few actually carry the knowledge from what I can see to actually understand the minute 'niche' section of the market which is ‘best guns’. Jeff Wemmer posts here often, and knows me well, if you require a reference in the future perhaps ask people that buy these guns and use them like us.

Sinner:

I am not denigrating the English guns. However, IMO there is not $100,000 or more difference in quality. My buddy just bought a very special Searcy with special engraving and a super piece of wood. I would put it up against ANY new H&H and he bought it for less than $20,000. If English guns are your thing, I say go for it. All I am saying is you can spend a lot less money and buy a gun of equal quality. Again, just my two cents.

Everyone knows that if you want a proper English gun, you have to go to Germany to get it... Hartmann & Weiss

Now that is funny!!

quote:

Originally posted by Mike70560:
Brett,

That is the attitude towards British guns that I was talking about.

First of all you paid way more for that Hollis than I did for my K-Gun. I believe it is the same gun you were looking at in Reno early this year at Champlins booth when I talked to you for a minute. Second it does not put a Krieghoff to shame. It is no more accurate, no more dependable, it may balance better to you, the Hollis has no ejectors, fit and finish on the Krieghoffs are pretty good. Not Best gun good but good. Let's shoot some monolithics out of them, I am not worried about the steel on my gun. One thing that is better will be resale, there is no taking that away.

Your Hollis is a fine rifle, but to say it would put a Krieghoff or Heym, or Searcy to shame is utterly ridiculous.

If this means I do not get it, so be it. I buy these rifles to shoot and hunt. And that I can assure you I get.

I appologize Mike. I just reread that and I really sounded bad. I worded that poorly or communicated poorly what I meant. What I meant is as far as caftsmanship it is a better gun. Functionality probably not and yes I agree on the ejectors and German steel. I was rather impressed by the K guns with respect to finish when compared to comparably priced or less expensive modern guns. That said I've seen English guns that are very plain Jane that the K gun would beat out. I guess my poorly worded point was that you can get an English double rifle with exceptional craftsmanship (better than the K guns I've seen) for MUCH less than the prices that new WRs, H&Hs, and Purdeys run for. As far a steel I'm not really worried. I'll feed them Woodies all day.

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by new_guy:
Everyone knows that if you want a proper English gun, you have to go to Germany to get it... Hartmann & Weiss

Agreed, Hartmann & Weiss are simple the best 'modern' gunmakers. True, they don't have the 'heritage' of the old English gunsmiths, but speaking to those working at W-R, H&H and J.Roberts, it seems H&W in Hamburg are the epitome of modern gunmaking (but at a cost!).

Visited the McKay Brown Website a few days ago (Dreaming!!) and they produce about 30 guns a year. They make a fine double rifle and a "round action". I would put them in the "best" category and also some Rizzini's. One Scottish and one Italian. I do not believe the English have a lock on the "best" market; Perhaps heritage but there quite a few makers out there willing to accept a 6 figure sum.
I would love to have the gun and fine workmanship and fit without all the engraving. You might cut the price in half.
Really like those Mckay Browns but I will happily accept a call from Butch Searcy today!

EZ

While I have owned at least 15 English doubles ranging in quality from Westley Richards to Watson Brothers, when I finally selected a double that suited me best, it was a German prewar gun in 465H&H. It was lighter, trimmer, just as accurate and as reliable as any British gun.

Since then I have taken several handfuls of elephants with it and a Searcy Deluxe Grade 470. No British gun would have done the job any better. But there is a certain pride of ownership that goes with owning a "Best Quality" British double that no other maker can match.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by PD999:

quote:

Originally posted by new_guy:
Everyone knows that if you want a proper English gun, you have to go to Germany to get it... Hartmann & Weiss

Agreed, Hartmann & Weiss are simple the best 'modern' gunmakers. True, they don't have the 'heritage' of the old English gunsmiths, but speaking to those working at W-R, H&H and J.Roberts, it seems H&W in Hamburg are the epitome of modern gunmaking (but at a cost!).

.. and a young gunsmith, worked for 7 years at H&W, has now his own shop (Büchsenmacherei).
Look at www. die-waffenschmiede.de

Also was a apprentice at Purdey's so when buying a H&W remember where the skills were devised.

Total agreement. It isn't just the English that build "fine English guns". It's a style and level of quality not a nation of origin.

Brett

I had the privilege of getting visit with David McKay Brown a couple of years ago when we went to Glasgow to visit the in-laws.

A modest shop and wonderful work. The epitome of a true craftsman. I came for just a brief visit. I was treated courteously and given the tour of the shop. A fine gentleman whose work quality is beyond reproach.

Rusty, did you handle any of his double rifles and did they handle like "traditional English doubles"?
Also, did he do all the work himself ie. all metal work, engraving, wood, checkering etc.
Peter.

He did not have a double in the shop when I was there. He and I spoke about barrels and he has those made. The action I saw was in a build box with all the pieces. I presumed he made them.
I met one young mad who worked for him. They do it all there.