quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
That rifle felt like my 500/450 Westley Richards seemingly like an extension of my body.

Tell you what Mac. I'll take your Westley if it's an ejector and you can use the money to buy yourself a Heym.

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
That rifle felt like my 500/450 Westley Richards seemingly like an extension of my body.

Tell you what Mac. I'll take your Westley if it's an ejector and you can use the money to buy yourself a Heym.

Brett

.....................

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
That rifle felt like my 500/450 Westley Richards seemingly like an extension of my body.

Tell you what Mac. I'll take your Westley if it's an ejector and you can use the money to buy yourself a Heym.

Brett

.....................

Seriously!!!

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
That rifle felt like my 500/450 Westley Richards seemingly like an extension of my body.

Tell you what Mac. I'll take your Westley if it's an ejector and you can use the money to buy yourself a Heym.

Brett

.....................

Seriously!!!

Brett

Brett,

As a displaced Scotsman, I can appreciate your passion for the English/Scottish DR's. In fact, I would love to own a David McKay Brown, Alex Henry, or Daniel Fraser DR myself, but like most people in this world, we cannot afford them. However, I can own a Merkel DR, have it customized to fit me, and know that it will have as few problems and shoot as accurately as any British DR (yes, Merkels are very well regulated). In fact, I can own at least 3 Merkels that shoot and fit me as well as a British gun for the price of one UK DR.

Now, please don't be offended, because I do dearly love British/Scottish guns, and have shot or sold many of them. In fact, my only shotgun is a David Murray from Stonehaven, Scotland, a barlock hammer 12 bore that I have owned for 8 years, choked Skt/IC, 30" barrels, circa 1894, with which I have shot hundreds of birds.

I have also owned a Paton & Walsh, Scottish muzzleloading DR built in 1859. British guns are phenomenal both in craftsmanship and handling; however, very few can even consider buying one; and the ones that most folks would be able to purchase probably should be avoided.

In our efforts to expand our DR enthusiasts, we probably should initially refer them to our German, Austrian, or other European makers that make extraordinarily high quality DR's for a much more affordable price; or at least refer them to Butch Searcy. If they can afford a British DR, they're probably going to get one anyway; I would, if for nothing other than nostalgia.

With respect, Mike

Blaser S2 is the best but the others you mentioned are a close second

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Blaser S2 is the best but the others you mentioned are a close second

Dave, don't drink the bong water.

quote:

Originally posted by mdstewart:
In our efforts to expand our DR enthusiasts, we probably should initially refer them to our German, Austrian, or other European makers that make extraordinarily high quality DR's for a much more affordable price; or at least refer them to Butch Searcy. If they can afford a British DR, they're probably going to get one anyway; I would, if for nothing other than nostalgia.

I pretty well agree with you. That said the original poster asked how doubles ranked including English guns. If someone asks that I'm going to put English guns first every time. Not everyone can afford them and there's nothing wrong with most of the rifles mentioned. So if someone came on here and asked what's the best doubles for 10-15k I'm not going to sit here and tell them how much better English doubles are than what ever. I might mention to look for English features like a splinter fore end. That said you know there are people out there that have 20-30 firearms or 2 or 3 or 4 doubles of various makes that if they sold they could have one great English gun. Like I said I know not everyone can afford them, but if you can.....why not???? I guess I should consider it a good thing as it means more fore me!!!!!!

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by DoubleDon:

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Blaser S2 is the best but the others you mentioned are a close second

Dave, don't drink the bong water.

That is classic brother!!

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:

I pretty well agree with you. That said the original poster asked how doubles ranked including English guns. If someone asks that I'm going to put English guns first every time.

Brett

Why?

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:

I pretty well agree with you. That said the original poster asked how doubles ranked including English guns. If someone asks that I'm going to put English guns first every time.

Brett

Why?

Dave,

Because he drinks the Kool Aid or bong water.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:

I pretty well agree with you. That said the original poster asked how doubles ranked including English guns. If someone asks that I'm going to put English guns first every time.

Brett

Why?

Dave,

Fit and finish on those old guns are as good as it gets. The craftsmanship is FAR beyond compare. Balance is almost always spot on and although I'm sure there's an exception ALL the one's I've handled are lively and able to be used quickly. If you've ever picked up a double that's blocky and doesn't handle well (Blaser) and then pick up one that handles well (most any English gun) you'll know what I mean. Superior craftsmanship, superior beauty, and superior functionality. I'm not sure what's not to like. Quite frankly Dave if you love your Blaser and your happy good for you, but if you can't see a difference (aside from price) between a Blaser and an fine old English rifle after holding both.......well I don't know what I could possibly say. Either you get it or you don't.

Brett

If you like droplocks and hunt in rotton weather the Zoli 450/400 deserves a close look as well

quote:

Quite frankly Dave if you love your Blaser and your happy good for you, but if you can't see a difference (aside from price) between a Blaser and an fine old English rifle after holding both.......well I don't know what I could possibly say. Either you get it or you don't.

Brett,

In regards to Blasers (and a few others you mentioned) I see your point. Like pointing a rail-road tie.

But in regards to some of the Merkels I have handled...it is a different ballgame.

One mans treasure is another mans garbage. Pointless debate. Buy what you love and can afford.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Brett,

In regards to Blasers (and a few others you mentioned) I see your point. Like pointing a rail-road tie.

But in regards to some of the Merkels I have handled...it is a different ballgame.

....and that's being nice. They are quite frankly the worst SXS double I've every had the mispleasure of handling. How Blaser can even sell one is beyond me when there are Merkels, Searcys, and Verney Carrons out there for similar money. I just fail to get it.

Honestly if safety/cocker is for some reason a real concern to you why not buy a Krieghoff? At least they are nice rifles.

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
If you like droplocks and hunt in rotton weather the Zoli 450/400 deserves a close look as well

Phil,

What's that gorgeous gun beside your Zoli?

Brett

Sinner is spot-on!

British doubles have that sort of "thang" - can't really be put into words!

well here's a try...

Purdey "Extra" finish .470 - 195,000 K

African Safari - 45K

Whacking an unsuspecting Cape Buffalo bull at 8 paces and watching him stiffen-up like he was hit with a million amps and then roll-over dead with all 4 hooves in the air...

Priiiiicelessssss!!!!!

My picks:

Rigby (Pre WW 1 )
Purdey
H&H
WR
Lang SLE
Frasier (pre WW II)
Jeffrey (Leonard actions)
Any British rifle built on Webley long-bar action.

Damn! I want to own a nice droplock one day!

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:

I pretty well agree with you. That said the original poster asked how doubles ranked including English guns. If someone asks that I'm going to put English guns first every time.

Brett

Why?

Dave,

Fit and finish on those old guns are as good as it gets. The craftsmanship is FAR beyond compare. Balance is almost always spot on and although I'm sure there's an exception ALL the one's I've handled are lively and able to be used quickly. If you've ever picked up a double that's blocky and doesn't handle well (Blaser) and then pick up one that handles well (most any English gun) you'll know what I mean. Superior craftsmanship, superior beauty, and superior functionality. I'm not sure what's not to like. Quite frankly Dave if you love your Blaser and your happy good for you, but if you can't see a difference (aside from price) between a Blaser and an fine old English rifle after holding both.......well I don't know what I could possibly say. Either you get it or you don't.

Brett

Brett:

I understand what you are saying about the Blaser but I will put my Krieghoff up against any English gun, especially and old one. If I was buying a bespoke gun today, it would be a Verney-Carron and I would put the other $50,000 or more that you would have to pay for a Holland & Holland in my pocket. Just my two cents.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:

I pretty well agree with you. That said the original poster asked how doubles ranked including English guns. If someone asks that I'm going to put English guns first every time.

Brett

Why?

Dave,

Fit and finish on those old guns are as good as it gets. The craftsmanship is FAR beyond compare. Balance is almost always spot on and although I'm sure there's an exception ALL the one's I've handled are lively and able to be used quickly. If you've ever picked up a double that's blocky and doesn't handle well (Blaser) and then pick up one that handles well (most any English gun) you'll know what I mean. Superior craftsmanship, superior beauty, and superior functionality. I'm not sure what's not to like. Quite frankly Dave if you love your Blaser and your happy good for you, but if you can't see a difference (aside from price) between a Blaser and an fine old English rifle after holding both.......well I don't know what I could possibly say. Either you get it or you don't.

Brett

Brett:

I understand what you are saying about the Blaser but I will put my Krieghoff up against any English gun, especially and old one. If I was buying a bespoke gun today, it would be a Verney-Carron and I would put the other $50,000 or more that you would have to pay for a Holland & Holland in my pocket. Just my two cents.

Must be quite a Krieghoff to be the equal of ANY "old" English double rifle. There are some magnificent ones out there. The fit, finish and artistry of the older guns is... uncomparable.
Opening an older cased gun is like opening a time machine. It is a motivation to learn and research the gun, the owner, the events of the period in which it was created. To put your hands where some King ,Duke, Maharaja has put his, in search of game, pull the trigger and take a step back into history. Well as Brett has said you either get it or you don't.

Gary:

Nostalgia don't make it shoot any better. I am not a historian or an art collector but if that's the way a guy wants to spend his money, I say go for it. In the long run, the English double is probably a better "investment" but your buffalo won't know the difference. Put me squarely in the "I don't get it" column. I think all this nonsense about "craftsmanship" that we keep tossing around is a bunch of hooey! Take a look at Krieghoff's Classic Imperial. I would take one of those for $23,000 over a over priced H&H gun any day of the week

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Gary:

Nostalgia don't make it shoot any better. I think all this nonsense about "craftsmanship" that we keep tossing around is a bunch of hooey! Take a look at Krieghoff's Classic Imperial. I would take one of those for $23,000 over a over priced H&H gun any day of the week

Dead is dead, you don't need a double rifle of any kind to drop them in the dirt. Nostalgia is an added bonus of older English.
There has got to be a considerable difference in build time of a Krieghoff "Classic" and an old English "best" gun. I don't think Krieghoff would purport to be equal in all aspects to Classic English best. They try and capture the concept at a reasonable price.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Brett:

I understand what you are saying about the Blaser but I will put my Krieghoff up against any English gun, especially and old one. If I was buying a bespoke gun today, it would be a Verney-Carron and I would put the other $50,000 or more that you would have to pay for a Holland & Holland in my pocket. Just my two cents.

Dave,

I'm glad we can agree about the Blasers. Like I said I just can't fathom how there's a market for them. Krieghoff has about a thousand times better craftsmanship and is about a thousand times nicer than the Blasers. They really are a nice rifle except.......why the damn cocker? (I know why so let's not re-ignite this arguement) Again throw me in the "I don't get it" category. That said they really are nice guns. If they made them with a normal tang safety....sans cocker....I'd take them over merkel, searcy, verney carron, chapius, ect. Heym....I don't know. British doubles though???? You must be drinking the bong water!!! They're nice, but not that nice! Honestly I was fairly objective in my opinions and open to modern non English rifles when I first seriously considered buying a double. I was really looking hard at a Heym. You know what changed my mind? Seeing and holding my first English double rifle. I remember saying to myself: "Holly crap these are the nicest firearms EVER created!" I was like a young King Arthur holding Excalibur after having pulled it from the stone! I know I'm being overly dramatic.........but that's the truth!

"I think all this nonsense about "craftsmanship" that we keep tossing around is a bunch of hooey!"

My cousin makes custom fixed blade knives. Nice ones too. Not best in the world H&H Purdey quality, but damn nice ones. He mentored me while I built two knives myself. Before he got into building them and before I had the experience of making two I could have pointed out a shiny nice looking knife and said it looked good. I couldn't have told you what makes a nice knife and what to look for with someone who knows what the hell they are doing and takes the time to do it well. Now I know what to look for. When I go to a gun show or some shop with knives for sale I can pick them up and pretty well tell if it's a nice knife, if the person knows what they are doing, and if they took the time to do it well. Not that I've built double rifles, but it's the same thing for doubles. You look at a fine English double and the wood to metal fit is superb. Some of them took the time to add tear drops to the butt stock. They add inricate doll's heads. Beautiful scroll engraving on the butt cap, action, forearm release, extended tang. They balance well and the weight is between the hands. They're kicking butt like new after 60-80-100 years of service..........and they have a story to tell!!!! Need I say more???

Brett

PS. Quite frankly English doubles amaze me!!! They are to guns what dangerous game hunting is to hunting..........THE SUPERLATIVE!!! Just my 2 cents.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:

Put me squarely in the "I don't get it" column. I think all this nonsense about "craftsmanship" that we keep tossing around is a bunch of hooey! Take a look at Krieghoff's Classic Imperial. I would take one of those for $23,000 over a over priced H&H gun any day of the week

.......

...I will put my Krieghoff up against any English gun, especially and old one. If I was buying a bespoke gun today, it would be a Verney-Carron and I would put the other $50,000 or more that you would have to pay for a Holland & Holland in my pocket. Just my two cents.

I was reluctant to comment in this thread but Dave's remarks have prompted me to point something out.

I am sure the Krieghoff's Classic Imperial is a fine gun but it is built on a boxlock action with sideplates. The best Verney-Carron doubles are built on a boxlock action, some models fitted with sideplates. The Westley-Richards droplock is also built on a boxlock action. But all Holland & Holland double rifles, including the new round action, are built on sidelock actions.

Comparing any boxlock gun to an H&H sidelock gun is like comparing a Mercedes to a Bentley, a Tag Heuer to a Rolex, Steiner binoculars to Leica binoculars, or apples to oranges. I am not disparaging any of the better made German, French, or other guns. There is nothing wrong with a well made boxlock. I think Verney-Carron's high end guns are especially well executed. But sidelocks are the epitome of double guns. A well made, hand fitted sidelock requires much more talent, time, and money to make than any boxlock. For example, a new Westley-Richards sidelock rifle starts at about $85,000 compared to $65,000 for their droplock and $45,000 for their standard boxlock. So, the prices of the H&H guns are higher than the Kreighoff or V-C but it is a result the work required, boxlock vs sidelock, and Holland & Holland's impeccable quality is commensurate with the price.

Big difference between a WR Droplock and a Boxlocks / or Boxlocks with Sideplates.
WR Droplocks have a heap more work.

WR Droplocks are more often than not lumped in with Sidelocks
because of the high level and quality of the work.

Another differentiating feature is the type of barrels.

Holland & Holland and other "best" gun barrels are made as one piece forgings.
Holland & Holland joins them using the chopper lump method:




European boxlock barrels are typically, but not always, made by soldering tubes into a monoblock.
Note the seams:


In guns, like most things, you usually get what you pay for.

As will always be the case, some folks just don't and never will "get it".

From someone who wields a file for a living, I have to give a nod to the big English firms as the overall best guns. After all, how many other makers build their guns and rifles on an H&H action?

Making anything as good as can be humanly made deserves a high price. The time it takes to develop the skill, execute said skill an bring the product to market results in much more than a simple tool. It becomes an intangable, a cultural asset and an heirloom. It's a reminder that excellence should always be cherished, and it happens to be a rifle.

If you haven't tired to make something as perfect as possible, try this. Buy a good micrometer, a block of steel and a few files. Now, make a square block, perfectly square, 1" on all sides, and polished to 2000 grit with SHARP corners and edges to within .0005 tolerance. Then tell me what the block is worth to you.

All that being said, if Fabbri made double rifles......second to none. ( I know they are Italian, but damn they are spectacular)

All I got to say is this:

Next time I get a $150K to spend on a rifle...I am taking my Merkel and my 2 old Model 70's and I am going to spend 30 days in one of Johan Calitz's camps in Botswana with my buddy Nigel Theisen and boy are we gonna put that money to good use!!!

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
All I got to say is this:

Next time I get a $150K to spend on a rifle...I am taking my Merkel and my 2 old Model 70's and I am going to spend 30 days in one of Johan Calitz's camps in Botswana with my buddy Nigel Theisen and boy are we gonna put that money to good use!!!

Using the same logic, someone could just as easily say, "Next time I get $15K to spend on a Merkel...I am taking my Model 94 and my 2 old Savage 110s and I am going to spend 30 days in the lodge at Goldmine Hunting Preserve in North Carolina with my buddy Gerald Almond and boy are we gonna put that money to good use!!!"

There is nothing wrong with any of those rifles nor any of those places. I find no fault in anyone whose entire battery of choice consists of one Handy Rifle with an extra barrel. Neither can I fault anyone for spending $250,000 on a fine gun. It's all good fun. It boils down to personal preferences and priorities.

Amen!!!

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
All I got to say is this:

Next time I get a $150K to spend on a rifle...I am taking my Merkel and my 2 old Model 70's and I am going to spend 30 days in one of Johan Calitz's camps in Botswana with my buddy Nigel Theisen and boy are we gonna put that money to good use!!!

Using the same logic, someone could just as easily say, "Next time I get $15K to spend on a Merkel...I am taking my Model 94 and my 2 old Savage 110s and I am going to spend 30 days in the lodge at Goldmine Hunting Preserve in North Carolina with my buddy Gerald Almond and boy are we gonna put that money to good use!!!"

There is nothing wrong with any of those rifles nor any of those places. I find no fault in anyone whose entire battery of choice consists of one Handy Rifle with an extra barrel. Neither can I fault anyone for spending $250,000 on a fine gun. It's all good fun. It boils down to personal preferences and priorities.

Agreed!

quote:

Holland & Holland and other "best" gun barrels are made as one piece forgings....

H&H barrel making is explained somewhat here

"Then we true up and drill the solid forging to produce the basic tube. Repeated turning and profiling of the exterior, reaming and honing of the bore..."

What method do they use to produce the rifling, is it buttoned, broach cut or single point cut?
Do they create the rifling before or after joining the barrels?

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
All I got to say is this:

Next time I get a $150K to spend on a rifle...I am taking my Merkel and my 2 old Model 70's and I am going to spend 30 days in one of Johan Calitz's camps in Botswana with my buddy Nigel Theisen and boy are we gonna put that money to good use!!!

Using the same logic, someone could just as easily say, "Next time I get $15K to spend on a Merkel...I am taking my Model 94 and my 2 old Savage 110s and I am going to spend 30 days in the lodge at Goldmine Hunting Preserve in North Carolina with my buddy Gerald Almond and boy are we gonna put that money to good use!!!"

There is nothing wrong with any of those rifles nor any of those places. I find no fault in anyone whose entire battery of choice consists of one Handy Rifle with an extra barrel. Neither can I fault anyone for spending $250,000 on a fine gun. It's all good fun. It boils down to personal preferences and priorities.

Thank you both for so eloquently saying what I have wanted to write on this thread, but couldn't find the words to do so. Spot on and thanks, I can stop thinking about it now.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Bailey Bradshaw:
From someone who wields a file for a living, I have to give a nod to the big English firms as the overall best guns. After all, how many other makers build their guns and rifles on an H&H action?

Making anything as good as can be humanly made deserves a high price. The time it takes to develop the skill, execute said skill an bring the product to market results in much more than a simple tool. It becomes an intangable, a cultural asset and an heirloom. It's a reminder that excellence should always be cherished, and it happens to be a rifle.

If you haven't tired to make something as perfect as possible, try this. Buy a good micrometer, a block of steel and a few files. Now, make a square block, perfectly square, 1" on all sides, and polished to 2000 grit with SHARP corners and edges to within .0005 tolerance. Then tell me what the block is worth to you.

All that being said, if Fabbri made double rifles......second to none. ( I know they are Italian, but damn they are spectacular)

Excellent analogy.

quote:

I think all this nonsense about "craftsmanship" that we keep tossing around is a bunch of hooey! Take a look at Krieghoff's Classic Imperial. I would take one of those for $23,000 over a over priced H&H gun any day of the week

Dave,

I get your point, but in the context of value, that Krieghoff will be worth somewhere just north of half of what you paid for the forseeable future if you were to buy one "new". Thus, the better value is in the Vintage English doubles albeit much more cost up front.

FWIW, the best value that I have have seen of late are the Hyem 88's that have been offered on the secondhand market. There's a ton of value there if you can buy them right.

JW

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Wemmer:

quote:

I think all this nonsense about "craftsmanship" that we keep tossing around is a bunch of hooey! Take a look at Krieghoff's Classic Imperial. I would take one of those for $23,000 over a over priced H&H gun any day of the week

Dave,

I get your point, but in the context of value, that Krieghoff will be worth somewhere just north of half of what you paid for the forseeable future if you were to buy one "new". Thus, the better value is in the Vintage English doubles albeit much more cost up front.

FWIW, the best value that I have have seen of late are the Hyem 88's that have been offered on the secondhand market. There's a ton of value there if you can buy them right.

JW

Dave,
Respectfully.. The only thing that's hooey is spending $23,000 on a K gun double rifle and thinking there's value there. The K is not designed well imho with that brain fart cocking mechanism, comparing it to a hand made H&H is honestly laughable.

JW,
You will notice most all the brethren haters of $100k + Brit guns here thinking there overpriced and hyped to the moon, have never owned one, don't understand the market for them new or used, and I dare say never will sadly.

quote:

Originally posted by Bailey Bradshaw:
From someone who wields a file for a living, I have to give a nod to the big English firms as the overall best guns. After all, how many other makers build their guns and rifles on an H&H action?

Making anything as good as can be humanly made deserves a high price. The time it takes to develop the skill, execute said skill an bring the product to market results in much more than a simple tool. It becomes an intangable, a cultural asset and an heirloom. It's a reminder that excellence should always be cherished, and it happens to be a rifle.

If you haven't tired to make something as perfect as possible, try this. Buy a good micrometer, a block of steel and a few files. Now, make a square block, perfectly square, 1" on all sides, and polished to 2000 grit with SHARP corners and edges to within .0005 tolerance. Then tell me what the block is worth to you.

All that being said, if Fabbri made double rifles......second to none. ( I know they are Italian, but damn they are spectacular)

Damn well said, Bailey!

Brett, that realy nice gun is my Zoli. The other one is my Wesley Richards droplock.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Blaser S2 is the best but the others you mentioned are a close second

Dave
I noticed you have a Krighoff and Blser S2
I have the 500.416 Krighoff and .500 Blaser and .500 Searcy , do you prefer your Blaser to Krighoff ??
Regards
Graeme