Gents,

I am considering to get a H&H DR. Is Holland & Holland Round Action worth $100,000? Your comment will be highly appreciate.

Not sure but if I had that cash I would look at a McKay & Brown

You and me both

I just picked up a David McKay Brown bolt rifle...one of only 2 that they built on Win Model 70 actions.

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:
Not sure but if I had that cash I would look at a McKay & Brown

True splinter fore-ends on those round body actions! Looks good!

In my humble opinion, they are not. I don't for a moment suggest that it's a bad design but it sure is...less than elegant! The problem H&H face is that they have to fork out a VERY big wad of cash annually just to be able stay in their Bruton Street premises and there's only one way that's ever going to be recovered - by getting it from selling stuff at inflated prices.

To be honest, I'm not wild about H&H quality of late. I recently handled one of the Centenary Edition .375 H&H bolt-actions and I'm 100% certain that it's one of the worst bolt-actions I've ever seen. The wood was steam-dried and green. GREEN. The chequering I could have done - atrocious. It did not have an ounce of engraving on it except for the serial number, it was hot blued (after suffering through the embraces of a buffing wheel...), and, worst of the worst, it was proofed in 2010. They didn't even have the class to have it proofed in the right year but merely took a barrelled action from stock and went with that. Not what I would call your average 20 000 pound gun.

They may lavish a bit more attention on their double guns and rifles, I don't know, but the vintage H&H is the only way to go for me. Feel free to disagree.

Much the same with Clode after he recently fired 100% of his skilled workforce (including his daughter) as a result of a petty wage dispute. All Westley's at this time will be made in the trade as he doesn't have any other choice. Of course, that's probably not an entirely bad thing...

At the risk of being burned in effigy by some, while at DSC I handled a new H&H double and if I'm not mistaken, the cost was around 200 friggin K. That rifle had NOTHING, NOTHING on a Verney Carron Azur that costs around 25K. NOTHING. Now older Brit doubles are another story but the new stuff? You want nice go handle a Piotti Brothers double...

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
I just picked up a David McKay Brown bolt rifle...one of only 2 that they built on Win Model 70 actions.

Post photos in a new thread if you don't mind. Would love to see.

Stan:
Rather than get numerous and varied opinions I suggest going to the true source of knowledge: PM shoot away. He will tell you all you want to know.
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
Stan:
Rather than get numerous and varied opinions I suggest going to the true source of knowledge: PM shoot away. He will tell you all you want to know.
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
Stan:
Rather than get numerous and varied opinions I suggest going to the true source of knowledge: PM shoot away. He will tell you all you want to know.
Cal

If nothing else, he can tell you how to collect trash and shoot cows!! On his own no less! He don't need no stinkin PH!

I'm actually waiting for his first book to be published on modern day Africana! Should rival the likes of Taylor! Hell, it will probably surpass the exploits of Bell. I can see it now! Trax will be a cutin and a pastin about Shiterway, building 30 line signature shrines to the Montreal madman!

If I ask Shootaway, I am afraid my gun will ended up like his gun below:



And all my elephant bulls will turn out to look like his buff below:

Hi Stan,

If a person has the wealth that allows for the
purchase of one rifle that is $100K or more, that
person decides which rifle to buy, or buys a col-
lection.

Maybe better to find a nice old Holland Royal or Rigby rising bite (if you don't already have one or either).

Ask George Caswell- he'll find one for you or perhaps look for a similar rifle in an auction.

quote:

Post photos in a new thread if you don't mind. Would love to see.

Mac, will do...I get it Monday.

Also, the McKay Brown rifles are certainly nice, but the one I saw at SCI some years ago which was very good, but not perfect...

I have sent an inquiry to McKay Brown since yesterday but in reply yet.

Thanks all.

I would suggest you ask Grenadier about the round actiom H&H. He actually owns one or two. I prefer the David McKay Browns when it comes to round actions in modern makes. They are all very expensive, regardless of which way you go.

Either way, a VC will never hold it's value like a McKay Brown or H&H. These guns are long term investments.

quote:

Originally posted by Stan-Elephant Trail:
Gents,

I am considering to get a H&H DR. Is Holland & Holland Round Action worth $100,000? Your comment will be highly appreciate.

No.

You'll get a better quality rifle for 50% to 30% of that price, if you order one through the trade. It will take longer to deliver though. You will have to do some homework to find out who is good and who isn't.

What you get 'off the shelf' at these shop fronts, is instant gratification for cashed up Arabs, Yanks and Russians who don't know any better.

Hell, just buy a half dozen Blaser doubles in six different chamberings , and six Sabattis in different chamberings! Then post pictures of them in their plastic cases!

At least they will give you a more exciting hunt, especially if you kick dirt in a hippo’s face get a close charge like MS, forget to re-cock after a reload and have your post mortem result on film for the members to see here!

……………………………………………………………..100K-200K for any rifle

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
Hell, just buy a half dozen Blaser doubles in six different chamberings , and six Sabattis in different chamberings! Then post pictures of them in their plastic cases!

At least they will give you a more exciting hunt, especially if you kick dirt in a hippo’s face get a close charge like MS, forget to re-cock after a reload and have your post mortem result on film for the members to see here!

……………………………………………………………..100K-200K for any rifle

Now that's funny! And downright somewhat realistic as well!

quote:

I just picked up a David McKay Brown bolt rifle...one of only 2 that they built on Win Model 70 actions.

Is it for sale yet?

Might that be a "shot"??

PS: Actually it is, and for much less than the sales tax on a McKay-Brown shotgun :-)

quote:

Originally posted by jvw375:
To be honest, I'm not wild about H&H quality of late.

Much the same with Clode after he recently fired 100% of his skilled workforce (including his daughter) as a result of a petty wage dispute.

Hmm; I'm afraid I have to agree with you there; shame

I am very familiar with the Holland & Holland round action. Holland & Holland did not just re-make an old design with a new look. It is a modern design, excellent at that, and makes for a very, very strong action. It is a true round action and not just a "rounded" off action like most you will see. It is actually a back-action sidelock and the mechanism is wonderful. They are sleek in hand, well balanced, have superb triggers, and work as you would expect a Holland to work.

I cast no dispersions on the McKay & Brown rifles that ozhunter posted as I point out that they use a trigger plate action (like many O/Us) and not a sidelock. The Holland & Holland round action gun is a modern back action sidelock. Those are different animals.

I am also very familiar with the Verney-Carron guns. They are nice and well worth what they cost but they are not in the same league as the McKay or the Holland. It is a simple fact that is immediately self evident to those who have handled and shot them and who have compared them side-by-side. The Verney-Carron guns are also boxlocks, not sidelocks. Again, different animals.

As to the worth of the Holland & Holland. There are many things to consider. If you just want to launch bullets down range then all you need is a pipe, something to close off one end after a cartridge has been inserted, and some way to indent the cartridge primer. In the simplest form a zip gun would meet that requirement. However, if you want something that can be depended upon to launch those bullets reliably and repeatedly to the point of aim, that will carry well, that is intuitive to handle and bring to bear, that is superbly engineered and meticulously manufactured, that has internals that really do fit together, that will outlast you, and will be worth more than you paid for it when you tire of it or go to the great beyond, then you want a Holland & Holland rifle.

On the left: My H&H Paradox - a ROUND back action sidelock | On the right: A "rounded" Verney-Carron boxlock with side plates.
Its like comparing apples and avocados


Note the pins in the sidelock action


Superb fit and finish ouside and inside.


And, yes, it handles and shoots the way you would expect a Holland & Holland to handle and shoot

VC must be making their mark in the world being called out by the Holland and Holland boys!



By the way, that IS NOT a picture of the Verney Carron Round Body action "with side plates". The VC Round Body does not have bolsters.

Here is an example of the VC Round Body Action:



Hardly a Zip Gun but I agree it isn't a Holland. And my bank account reflects this fact today! $15,000 vs $225,000! But if I had it, I'd probably spend it on an H&H!

Thank you, Grenadier. Very well written. Just can not not make up my mind and more confused. Anyhow after a week and two inquiries to McKay & Brown, still no respond from them.

By the way, I have ordered a field grade DR in .500 NE and bought a best grade DR in .470 NE (the DR posted on their website) from Anderson Wheeler while shopping around.

Nice rifle, Todd. Please note, though, that I described the action in the picture as "rounded" and not a round action. VC does offer round boxlocks.

I can't at all fault a guy, with the means, for spending $100,000 on a rifle (though I doubt the above assertion that the "lower end" H&H rifles will ever have investment value). That said, as an economist, the first thing I look at is the marginal benefit of spending $85,000 MORE than I would on a VC. It's a bit like the guy who buys a Rolls Royce rather than a Mercedes S-Class (Yes, I know, most RR owners probably have a stable of the latter). The question I ask myself is, "Can the former be three times the car embodied by the latter"? Frankly, and just for me, not even close and I suspect the folks at MB could give you a few reasons why their car is actually BETTER over the long haul. Similarly, I doubt very seriously that the H&H is 7x the rifle a VC is. It might not even be twice as good or 50% better or even 25% when you stop and think about it. At that level of craftsmanship, you are paying huge sums for tiny "improvements" that the VAST majority of double rifle consumers (much less the general public) can't even perceive much less know to look for. Some guys value these things very highly and some don't so I suppose it all boils down to "preferences". Me? I'll take a VC .450NE and spend the change on two or three really nice elephant hunts.

Frankly, this conversation is a bit odd when you think about it. In global terms, it is like the top .1% of wealth holders arguing with those only in the top .3%.

Stan, after all is said and done on this website what you need is go and handle as many different rifles and shotguns as you can. Through my travels I have had the privilege and the pleasure of handling many of the worlds finest rifles and shotguns, my only regret is that I have a beer budget and champagne tastes.
Every gun you will find is a different animal, just as if you and I might be admiring the girls seen on a busy street your head may go in one direction and mine in another. As you handle more and more different rifles and shotguns your thoughts and desires may change, barrel length, action type, wood are all subjective and the beauty is truly in the eyes of the beholder.
I have come to realize that fine shotguns and rifles are animate in-animate objects and one will truly wiggle her hips and beckon you to come...

There is a lot to be said about diminishing returns for the additional prices you pay. But the same goes for nearly anything of quality whether it be watches, optics, sailboats, top tier automobiles, or gunstock blanks and action engraving. And regarding the "miniscule" difference between a well made, high end, double compared to a consumer grade double, the difference is far from "miniscule".

That said, one should keep in mind just what one is comparing. Any well made sidelock rifle will cost 25% to 50% more than the a boxlock rifle from the same company. Stan-Elephant Trail just said he bought an Anderson Wheeler in the interim. Anderson Wheeler offers their sidelock rifles for substantially more than their boxlock rifles. So, to tendrams example, it would be more appropriate to compare the Mercedes M-Classes to the Mercedes S-Classes.

Most makers of double rifles don't even offer rifles on sidelock actions. They set up their shops to minimize labor and maximize production. It is easier to sell many boxlocks with an economy of scale that ensures a nice margin on lower priced products than it is to sell a few sidelocks which require more individualized production and which do not benefit from the same economy of scale.

As regards to the resale value of "lower end" H&H rifles. All one need do is look at the prices that any well known British maker's 2nd tier double rifles in good condition bring on the second hand market. I am not saying that they should be the first choice for an "investment" but, after the first few years or so, they will begin to go up, and up, in value. And, yes, they will command more if sold years later than they cost when ordered. You can buy many new double rifles for under $35,000 but I know there are many people out there who have taken a beating when they later sold them, myself included.

I am not berating the lower cost doubles. They are a good value for what you pay and they fill a large need in the marketplace. I own and have owned a variety of guns and rifles and I liked them all, with only a couple of exceptions.

Stan, check out Hartmann & Weiss too, when considering quality double rifles.

http://www.hartmannandweiss.com/en/
http://www.hartmannandweiss.co...nn-weiss-katalog.pdf

PD999, I did check with Hartmann & Weiss but their lead time is way too long for me.

"Thank you very much for your enquiry.

A Hartmann & Weiss sidelock ejector double rifle in the caliber .500NE would be € 122.500,- and has a lead time of 3 ½ to 5 years.
This price includes fine English scroll engraving, colour case hardening, extended upper and lower tang and exhibition grade wood as you can see on our website.

We hope to have informed you for now, but should you have any further questions or comments, please don’t hesitate to contact us.

With best regards from Hamburg,

Gerhard Hartmann & Otto"

quote:

Originally posted by Stan-Elephant Trail:
€ 122.500,- and has a lead time of 3 ½ to 5 years.

Thanks Stan!
Hmmm, may have to start saving up for one of their 577NE sidelocks!

Peter

If I was to go build a working double fo myself, Personally today I would go to westley's and get a drop lock made.

I know different action etc but still a beautiful bespoke gun. Spend the balance on some buffalo

K

As you wish K.

"Thank you for using Build Your Gun

Please see attached your Build Your Gun form you completed on the Westley
Richards website.

A copy has been sent through to Westley Richards and a member of the team will
be in contact with you shortly.

Sidelock Double Rifle

Standard Rifle up to .500 NE: £65,000.00
Slim Beavertail Forend: £750.00
Traditional Scroll Engraving: £0.00
Guncase: £0.00

Total: £65,750.00

Sincerely,

Westley Richards & Co."

That was from October 31, until now no one contacted me yet.

Stan

Back action vs Trigger-plate action; I still get confused with their pros' and cons'!

Oh yes I forgot you were talking in funny money... Apologies.

It always pays to drop in and see what's on the bench. Two 470's last year bought like that were on very good deals. I'm into WR next week between hunts and I will post some pics of what's on the bench.

K

Yes, $100,000 is a lot for a gun. That is why I have not ordered it.