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After my recent (11 days ago) elephant charge, I have already sat my Merkel extractor double aside and bought a VC 450 NE with ejectors!! No way in hell I'm using an extractor gun again!! I was not in any danger in this situation as my PH (Karl Stumpfe) was there but if something had happened to him - stumble, trip over the cameraman or tracker, etc.. and I was still f'ing around loading my double.... Yeah - instant really bad day... "At least once every human being should have to run for his life - to teach him that milk does not come from the supermarket, that safety does not come from policemen, and that news is not something that happens to other people." - Robert Heinlein | |||
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Scott, I think you have a point as few of us is able to practise as much as Todd has shown us in his videos. I think we tend to forget something; the stress in the field when things happen cannot be transfred to a " garden exercise " if I may call it that. Morten The more I know, the less I wonder ! | |||
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I see in Todd's demonstration the cases fell out when he flipped the gun over. The rimless 416 cases in my Merkel absolutely will not fall out and you have to basically pick them out with your fingernail.. They are not super tight but they are tight enough not to fall out on their own. That time spent picking them out is way to long for me... Now a rimmed case might fall right out but that doesn't work well when you have only fired one barrel and want to reload that barrel quickly... "At least once every human being should have to run for his life - to teach him that milk does not come from the supermarket, that safety does not come from policemen, and that news is not something that happens to other people." - Robert Heinlein | |||
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Good point and agree  Morten The more I know, the less I wonder ! | |||
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I just saw your hunt report and wondered if you were going to post anything here. I personally believe in the “ejectors only” philosophy, especially if you’re going to hunt dangerous critters with it. One less thing to have to worry about. _______________________________________________________ Hunt Report - South Africa 2022 Wade Abadie - Wild Shot Photography Website | Facebook | Instagram | |||
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Yeah…. It was a reality check for sure.. I still love to shoot the Merkel 416 but I’m not taking it back to Karl’s in 2025 :-) "At least once every human being should have to run for his life - to teach him that milk does not come from the supermarket, that safety does not come from policemen, and that news is not something that happens to other people." - Robert Heinlein | |||
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I guess you should have said don't use a Rimless Cartrige in a double Rifle? I use a 500 Nitro Double and they fall right out. | |||
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Yup. A top up reload when you have seconds to do it can be important. Why put yourself at a disadvantage? Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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Extractrs on all my double rifles even if I had to remove the ejectors! most ejector rifles you almost have to break them open over your leg!! I saw this all the time on safari, as well as some guns I bought. Loss of brass and watching hunters on hands and knees search the high grass for spent cases and a still alive buff they just shot..plus other reasoning.. My ejector model I can just twist and dump a load at me feet and reload, its quite and fast enough, and the weight of my barrels or even a flick of the wrist, drops barrels down and the action open. To each his own, not sure it makes a hell of a lot of difference, and you have a PH too assist if things go south which is seldom indeed, but when it does???  Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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There really isn't any disadvantage to extractors in a DR as compared to ejectors. It's a matter of practice with the proper technique. If you need to top off from a single barrel being fired, you aren't typically in a speed reload situation and flicking (or picking) the spent case out with your index finger nail, while holding the new round between your middle finger and thumb provides plenty of time to complete the top off. If in a speed critical situation, you'd be better off firing the second barrel before reloading anyway. If the cases won't freely drop out of the chamber after initial extraction, then you are flirting with excess pressure. We can't take the load up to the point of normal pressure signs as with a bolt gun (flattened primers, etc.), so watching for sticky cases after extraction is the best way to check for excess pressure. Sam Rose, who is a highly experienced DR guy, advocates working up your DR loads, cross checking with a Chrony, stopping at any point where the cases cease freely falling out of the chambers with initial extraction. With an ejector gun, you have to crack the action open slightly, allowing initial extraction to occur, but prior to the ejectors pinging the case, point the muzzles up, and the cases should slide out and hit the receiver. If they don't, better back off the powder charge. | |||
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There are some unanswered questions about The 416 Rigby being stuck in the barrle? Why weren't both Barrels Fired in a Ele Charge situation? Was the Cartrige that was stuck in the Barrel a reload? Has a cartrige been stuck in this Barrle before? | |||
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The issue with rimless in doubles is that rimless cartridges e.g. 375 H&H, 416 Rigby usually run at higher pressures and velocities in factory loadings for bolt guns. I imagine these cartridges rimmed equivalents would be better for doubles. If handloading then agree with Todd, load to pressure levels to allow easy drop out of empty cases. | |||
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I can tell you that in my Merkel, neither a new, clean factory round or a reload using new, unfired Norma 416 brass will just fall out of the gun even BEFORE it is fired.. and yes, the gun is clean.. My handloads take the same effort to remove even after being fired - not a pressure issue.. Its not really stuck but it does take the assistance of a good fingernail to pick the round out.. Now this may not be the issue with rimmed cartridges but it sure is with a rimless 416 in my Merkel 140. No worries on my part, my VC 450NE will arrive in a few days. If nothing else it was a great excuse to buy another double :-) "At least once every human being should have to run for his life - to teach him that milk does not come from the supermarket, that safety does not come from policemen, and that news is not something that happens to other people." - Robert Heinlein | |||
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 Scott: Post pics when it arrives! | |||
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To start with a double rifle should have a rim not a belt from a functioning standpoint and from a pressure standpoint. Most manufacturers had since enough to know that, and the ones that didn't dropped it like hot rock shortly after production.. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Bought a unfired Merkel 140 A in 470 NE made in 2007. It is with extractors, but is is prepared to install ejectors. This is due to the lower opening in the back of the fore end. According to Merkel and gunsmith this is necessary for installing ejectors as the rifle is able to handle ejectors installed. I will have ejectors installed after changing back stock due to too low comb etc. ( Not able to show pictures ) Looking forward to this project - will do a lot of shooting with it loading down some loads using cast bullets. Much cheaper and you can stand more shots when practising. Morten The more I know, the less I wonder ! | |||
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Merkel dropped the 375 and 416 rigby for those very reasons Im told by those in the know..or should know. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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So I'm one of those guys with limited double rifle experience who recently used a double on an elephant. I do have decent experience with a double shotgun with ejectors. I missed the brain, immediately put one in his chest, both PHs put one in his chest, and then he turned and one of the PHs hipped him. We ran up and I put one more in in his brain. I wore a GoPro. From first shot to final brain shot was 27 seconds. Best I can tell from the video it took me a hair under 4 seconds to reload the Merkel ejector .500 and that included removing the rifle from the sticks. I felt like it was a good smooth reload with no fumble, and felt just like trying to reload a double shotgun to shoot at that damn pheasant again. Maybe I could have done it a hair faster but I don't see how. I had two cartridges in the belt sticking up a bit and loosened in preparation for a reload. I just don't see any way I could have done it faster or as fast with extractors. Seems like a no-brainer to me. But admittedly I have a sample size of ONE  | |||
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by skl1: I thought prevailing wisdom was to use doubles with extractors in Dangerous Game cartridges for fear the ejector would fail or slip over the cartridge head. I've got limited exposure to doubles, and I've only seen that happen once (with a non-rimmed double in .357 H&H). But I've also seen several shotguns with ejectors fail or slip over the cartridge head. So for a .470 or .500 I'd go extractors. I like ejectors. But for a reloader, the extractors also allow me to easier catch the shell or cartridge, even when shooting off the bench.[/QUOTE I don’t see how any quality double will slip over the rim of cartridge. Unless it’s rimless, and in that case leave that round for your bolt gun. Mac | |||
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Note that shotgun ammo does not have sharp well defined rims and any wear and wobble in the extractors has potential to see the case head slip behind the extractor. This is exacerbated with ejectors where the sharp blow given to the extractor to eject the spent hull can cause case head slip. Brass rifle cases have much better defined rims and unless the rims are undersized or the gun has worn extractors, there should be no occurrence of case rim slip when using ejectors. Prevailing wisdom was likely borne from the use of old poorly maintained guns and likewise indifferent cartridge dimensions and or care of ammunition. Using quality guns as you say and ammo, should take away any cons from deciding whether to use ejectors or not. | |||
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Yes have seen some poor ejectors in less than quality shotguns. I however assumed we were talking rifles, based on we are posting in the Double Rifle section. Mac | |||
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Yes we are talking about rifles, I was just noting the difference between rifle and shotgun cartridge rims and extractors after you yourself bought up the subject of shotguns. | |||
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NOt all chambers are polished well. some to rough but some to much so the case won;t grab the chamber walls, Ive seen both. mostly factory guns I believe, but fixable anyway..all my doubles dropped the fired case easy..and I required that.. Too many clients were caught breaking open their new double over their knee, aggravating at best. The oldest minus is the sound of a double being broke open sending jumbo to you like radar is hogwash if so the boom can do the same even sooner..oh well!?? Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Double Rifles Extractor or ejector ?
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