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Hi guys, I have sold my VC 450 NE. That rifle had ejectors. I have been offered a Merkel 140A in 470 NE, but that rifle has no ejectors, just extractors. I have shot one tuskless and one buffalo with the VC, ejected the empty cases and put in two more. Not sure about the reloading speed, but imagine that we are talking about a second or two or three in difference getting the empty shells out. Any thoughts/advice ? I know that Todd W. had a Merkel with extractors and have his thoughts about this, but any others that have experience thwey want to share ? Love to hear from you guys. All the best, Morten The more I know, the less I wonder ! | ||
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I have a Wilkinson 470 with extractors and a merkel with ejectors. I like ejectors but with practice I have no issue with extractors. If it’s a good deal go with it get some dummy rounds and start practicing White Mountains Arizona | |||
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Ejectors all the way! Some old-time hunters liked extractors for shooting elephants in herds because they felt that the "ping" of the ejectors would give away their location. Never understood that, since deliberate speed is everything when the chips are down. I'd rather have a loaded rifle that "pings" than a quiet rifle that's empty when it could be loaded if was just a bit noisier.  Not to mention those poor cacophonous bolt rifle shooters who never seem to be bothered by the clicking and clacking.  My Rigby has a selector that permits turning off the ejector function, which is great at the range. But otherwise please give me ejectors all the time. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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I agree 100% with what Mike wrote. | |||
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Unbelievable USMC Retired DSC Life Member SCI Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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Hello Morten, I went back and tried to find my videos demonstrating reloading with extractors vs ejectors. Unfortunately, the extractor video was uploaded and hosted by Photobucket and is no longer available. I have it somewhere on one of my hard drives but it would take too long to find it now as much of my belongings are still in storage from when we were thinking of selling our house last year. If I come across those hard drives, I'll upload again. The bottom line is the speed difference between 4 shots with an ejector rifle vs 4 shots with an extractor rifle came down to just under 1 second. If I remember correctly, I demonstrated 4 shots with the extractor gun (500 NE Merkel) at 7.1 seconds and 4 shots with the ejector gun (500 NE VC) at 6.3 seconds. I'd have zero problem going back to an extractor rifle. A little practice goes a long way. There is no "picking out the brass". It just takes a very quick flick of the wrist to point the barrels up, reaching for the 2 new rounds with the "fore hand" as the "trigger hand" rotates the rifle back to the loading position. | |||
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I saw those. Practice makes perfect… White Mountains Arizona | |||
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Elephant can run nearly 30 miles per hour, which is 44 feet per second. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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Cape buffalo and lion are even faster. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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If I don't stop, I'm going to be arguing for a bolt action. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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Mike, that's when common sense kicks in :-) Price, mag capacity, familiarity, etc. | |||
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Maybe a 458 Socom on an AR platform!  | |||
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I have ten double rifles. All but one; EXTRACTORS. I am under zero disadvantage with extractors. Why, you ask? Training!!! Train as you fight and you will do fine. Extractors are not all that slower; but only if you train on them. For lazy hunters, or those unwilling to train on their equipment, my advice is to take up needle point and leave hunting to others. Ever see a guy at the range with ejectors? Watch him catch the brass before it flings tan feet behind him and hits the concrete? I have. Guess what? He will also do that in the field. I don't want, or need, no stinkin ejectors! | |||
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Hello Todd, Yes I remembered that video. You handeled the Merkel very good in a speed as good as the VC with ejectors. I will give it some thoughts. Thanks, Morten The more I know, the less I wonder ! | |||
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I have 6 double rifles..all are extractors.. The spent large NE cases fall easily out with a sharp twist no matter what temp. in Africa.. I have hunted ele with a .475NE extractor..no problem.. Morten.. if I were you I would rather source out a used Krieghoff in .470, preferably with a swing mount and put on a scope..and the extra safety in that action.. | |||
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The problem is that I rarely find a Krieghoff that fits my hands with regard to angle of pistolgrip. I agree on the extra safety, but is it really necessary ? Is'nt it that you have to cock it every time you want to pull the trigger and not like the Blaser which you decock after firing all the shots ? Morten The more I know, the less I wonder ! | |||
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Morten, the Blaser P.O.S. is the one that has to be cocked every time you open the action. The Kreighoff doesn't have the auto safety. | |||
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Just more to go wrong. I have two K guns; a 9.3 and a 450-400. The 9.3x74R has the Bavarian stock and the 400 has the straight one. Again, train with them and you can use them effectively. As as TW said, you only cock them once. From then on out they cock themselves. Blasers I know nothing about. Other than some of them have nice wood. | |||
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I thought prevailing wisdom was to use doubles with extractors in Dangerous Game cartridges for fear the ejector would fail or slip over the cartridge head. I've got limited exposure to doubles, and I've only seen that happen once (with a non-rimmed double in .357 H&H). But I've also seen several shotguns with ejectors fail or slip over the cartridge head. So for a .470 or .500 I'd go extractors. I like ejectors. But for a reloader, the extractors also allow me to easier catch the shell or cartridge, even when shooting off the bench. | |||
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Not to be critical but that's a bad habit to get into if you actually use your DR to hunt DG. | |||
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Todd, I don't hunt dangerous game, but good point! If I ever did, after years of covering the breech while opening my skeet gun, I'm not sure I could break the habit. | |||
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I have a bit of an issue with the premise that practice makes perfect, or advice to practice, practice, practice, is the necessary answer for hunting dangerous game. Practicing operating a double rifle or bolt gun at speed on a range is an entirely different story to functioning the same when up close and personal with dangerous game. Comparing the speed of getting shots away between doubles and bolts or the difference between extractors and ejectors, as Todd W calmly has done in videos are at a range and does not factor in adrenaline, fear, breathlessness, fatigue and maybe some other factors, when the hunter is facing a charge or just up close to DG animals that are agitated, roaring, snarling, trumpeting etc. Then there is the added pressure of the PH giving instructions for further shots or calling for the hunter to follow him away or to another position etc. I've watched enough video of hunters (some AR members) in these situations who probably handle their guns quite professionally at the range but are reduced to fumbling and bumbling when trying to reload after shooting. Suffice to say double rifles seem to be the worst for this, possibly a physiological thing because once both barrels are fired that is it, a dead empty gun. If the hunter now has to run after the PH, away from the situation or to a better position for another shot, he often struggles to reload. Not wishing to speak ill of those that have passed but Cal Pappas did post a video of his buffalo hunt with MS which showed the cluster fuck when Cal was faced with a quick reload of his double 600NE after missing a close buffalo with his first two shots. Fortunately the buffalo ran away, had it not, Cal would have been left completely exposed, off course white knight MS would have ridden to the rescue in this case. Now Cal would have had to be one of the most experienced double rifle users but it just didn't work that time. To me ejectors take care of one operation you don't have to when the chips are down, and the gun remains in position ready for two more cartridges to be dropped in. Yes as with any activity practice is important so you are not a complete tyro when using a gun but when faced with the real situation the performance can be quite different. | |||
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The people that eff up on video obviously don’t practice enough. Something I would never want to be accused of…… White Mountains Arizona | |||
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I have far less rounds through double rifles. But I have 10's of thousands of round through double shotguns. But when the shot opportunity is fast and furious ejectors guns are faster to reload. | |||
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I've posted several videos of my elephant and buffalo hunts with a double where I shot both barrels and reloaded in the same amount of time as shown in my videos on the range. It's practice with a certain mindset. That said, I do get what you're saying about the adrenalin adding complications. On that video I posted competing against my friend Eric, double against bolt rifle, Eric has been criticized over and over as "not being experienced" simply because I beat him with the double on 4 shots. The fact is Eric is one of the most experienced big bore shooters I know. He's been on multiple safaris as well. What people don't see from the video, but I have explained, is that the video is the 6th attempt we filmed. On the first three tries, Eric was shooting his very high end 416 Rigby, built by a very well known gunsmith. That rifle feeds slick as snot. But he jammed it on the 3rd shot the first try, 4th shot on the second try, and 4th shot on the third try. We switched to my CZ 416 Rigby, slicked up by Wayne. He jammed it on the 4th shot twice. What we found was that just a little competition generated enough adrenaline that my hands had a little shake after the first attempt and he jammed the rifle trying to go as fast as he could. He eventually had to back off just a little and focus on being smooth instead of operating the bolt at full speed. The result was that he get's criticized for lack of proficiency because I beat him with the double. When we set up the camera that day, we had no idea of the outcome. I've read for decades, the argument about which is faster, a bolt or double rifle. I searched around and could never locate a video example of said competition. So we decided we'd just give it a go. We were both convinced the bolt would win. I thought he had beaten me on the first try until the told me he jammed the rifle. Even on the last try where we got a clean run, I thought he had beaten me, evidenced by how fast I fired the 4th shot, then heard his fourth shot and realized I was ahead. THIS is that adrenalin complication spoken of earlier. It interferes with your concentration. It's going to be there in the field when facing a DG animal. If it's important to you, I'd suggest a friendly speed competition at the range to simulate it prior to going hunting. My experience shows that the adrenalin interferes with the bolt shooters just as much. I filmed a big bore / safari shoot at the Flying B ranch, conducted by our own Chris Sells, about 10 years ago. The range included a buffalo charge simulator. That little bit of added adrenalin caused all the bolt shooters to fumble the bolt. Every one. There is a YouTube hunting channel I enjoy. It's called Modern Day Mountain Man, featuring many brown bear hunts, guided by a very nice fellow named Billy Mohles. That's an animal that usually receives more than one shot once the action is opened. Almost every hunter fumbles either the second or third shot from their bolt guns. In several episodes, Billy has to drop the camera and finish the bear before it gets into the brush. Back to the OP's question however, the speed difference between extractors and ejectors in a double rifle are negligible. So much so that for the average DR shooter, the gap can be spanned with a little practice. If you're not practiced with speed shooting / reloading a DR, the extraction method isn't going to matter. | |||
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My Krieghoff "Teck" O/U double rifle has ejectors, but they can be changed to extractors with the use of a small screwdriver by simply removing the coil springs which impel the ejectors. I have never felt the need to remove the springs, since for me, after years of shooting international skeet, the reloading motion has become automatic to the point that I sometimes don't remember doing it and have to check to make sure. I have also been known to reload a bolt gun so automatically that I didn't remember doing it afterwards. This was after shooting my first elephant. | |||
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What Todd says.... My 1903 Gibbs is an extractor gun .... Practice Practice Practice Open, Dump, Reload.... | |||
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As a competitive shooter in combat style matches absolutely practice makes perfect. Under stress. Under the clock. Against fellow competitors. Hooey on saying practice under stress does not increase proficiency. On a bear hunt I fired all 4 rounds out of my .375 on video as fast as I could. Didn’t short stroke it….. Short stroking and jamming a bolt gun can and does happen….. Get dummy rounds and practice…… White Mountains Arizona | |||
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If you need more than two shots at a Charging Animal spend more time at the range. | |||
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Not everyone does combat style competitive shooting and I wonder just how well many of these combat shooters would do if sent over to Ukraine and had to face someone shooting back at them. This is entirely different stress than you'll find on any range plus there will be big doses of fear and panic and huge doses of adrenaline in the veins too. I've known some expert clay target shooters who are bloody hopeless duck and upland game shots. Ask Saeed what he thinks of clay target shooting in relation to game shooting. I didn't say practice under stress does not increase proficiency, I was making the point that range shooting often is of no reality to facing off against dangerous game. I do agree with Todd that bolt actions are not immune from cluster fucks. My Mauser 404 arrived from Rhodesia with the magazine floorplate glued shut. Not that it had a fault, I've used the rifle for decades now and the unglued floorplate has never opened when shooting (has the button in trigger guard). It is a known thing that some hunters in Africa have pushed the magazine button in panic when facing charges and dumped all their rounds on the ground (a famous American actor was one who did this). Likewise some in a panic have been known to rapidly cycle the bolt, again dumping all their rounds on the ground. As always, expect the unexpected when the shit hits the fan. | |||
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Not always the issue. On my 2013 elephant bull hunt video I've posted previously, I fired and dropped my bull with the first shot, then fired the back up. I reloaded while backing out and our party was charged by a second bull coming in from 90 degrees off the initial contact. Luckily we didn't have to shoot the second bull but it got dicy real quick. It's amazing how fast things can go pear shaped. I'll add just a bit more if the forum doesn't mind. That is, there is more to just a quick reload of the rifle. This was my 5th elephant hunt and I thought I was pretty comfortable around these beasts. After reloading, I noticed my PH, cameraman, and game scout were already about 4 steps ahead of me in extricating ourselves from the little clearing we were in. My PH was yelling "Back, Back, Back". I didn't see the second bull and mistakenly turned my back and ran toward the PH in an attempt to catch up. Immediately upon turning, I caught a glimpse of that second bull at less than 10 yards, in full stride, ears out, trunk tucked, and closing on me fast. I found myself with a fully loaded double rifle but out of position to stand and fire. We were lucky to get out of there without anyone getting hurt that day. I can say with confidence, 5 elephant hunts does not make one competent to be near these beasts without a back up, regardless of the rifle in one's hands. It was humbling. | |||
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You probably won't get any more than two shots on a charging animal, but spend more time in the field shooting animals even if only walk up rabbits or other varmints. Not just sniping them from a fixed position. Get practice at placing your shots from field positions. Most can place their shots on target at a range but many are bloody hopeless or at least poor doing so in the field. | |||
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Well done with both! Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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I have an over and under double 7x65r with extractors. A quick tilt sideways and the empties fall out, and in go the new ones. Empty Rifle cases don’t stick in the chamber like shotgun cases and will fall out on their own. | |||
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Much more quiet than the ping of ejectors, + about equal time; but as said, there are adherents to both choices.I bought a dbl. from a member here several years ago in 416 Rigby that had extractors, + he had an up + personal experience with a buffalo, that caused him to sell that one + get one with ejectors. To each their own. | |||
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People who train and practice do better then those that do not. One fights how one is trained. | |||
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I used to absolutely love brown bear hunting. I'd glass for them year around. One year my now wife and I were moose hunting (also bear season thankfully) and had seen a small bull in a creek bottom. A bear was busy eating berries and gradually working towards us about 200 yard away and we were keeping a good eye on it too. We then spooked a bedded down cow at about 10 yards laying just in the brush that we hadn't even seen. The cow snorted at us and walked off a few yards behind us. The bear froze for about 10 seconds as I watched in my binos then broke at a dead run. At that point two+ months into the season I'd stalked 21 bears without seeing one I liked, 10 down to 100 yards which was my cut off if I wasn't going to shoot. I thought I was comfortable around them! When the bear ran it literally felt like my heart skipped a beat. I held center of bear as it came straight on (moose was right behind us, doubt it even saw us) and shot at 40 yards and she summersaulted. I worked the bolt and immediately said to my wife, "I didn't hear the gun go off." Ive been shot at plenty, in car wrecks, snuck around irate elephants, etc but have never had an adrenaline dump like that and can admit I can see how I could have easily screwed up something seemingly simple. PS: all my double are extractors, not out of preference necessarily, just what each gun that fit me, in a caliber I wanted, etc was equipped with. DRSS "If we're not supposed to eat animals, why are they made out of meat?" "PS. To add a bit of Pappasonian philosophy: this single barrel stuff is just a passing fad. Bolt actions and single shots will fade away as did disco, the hula hoop, and bell-bottomed pants. Doubles will rule the world!" | |||
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