I've been searching for a faster way to load a double. The idea here is to keep the rifle on your shoulder (like a bolt) and load with your strong hand.

OK... let the comments begin.

Video 1

Looks pritty quick!

Slick.

I've tried that with my Tolley Jones hammergun.
Busy fingers for me there, to the contrary you're on it with your rifle in the video.

That's an extractor rifle?

--Tinker

Tis quick.

Only issue I see is that you have to take your eyes off the target to do it. And you may lose a bit of time getting your right hand back into position.

Perhaps if you had a couple of rounds between your teeth and spit them into the empty chambers....Can we see a video of that?

This guy is pretty quick too! I'd give him a seat in my howdah any day.

Fast

Bob

The fastest way to reload any double is the way the cowboy action shooters do it.
Carry two rounds facing aft in your weak hand. Place them with the bullets facing your body flat in your weak palm. They will be between your forearm and your hand.
When you break the action open grip the round in your fist and dump them into the chambers.
The positives with this are that your are using gross motor skills rather than fine motor skills. Fine motor skills tend to go away under extreme stress.

The negative with this technique is that the rounds scratch your forearm wood.

I use a buttstock shell carrier made by Murray Leather. On a hard kicking rifle the leather does not scratch or cut your face like the elastic ones will.

On an extractor gun I pluck out the empty[s].
I prefer to pluck them out rather than turning the gun to the side/flipping it up side down because that might not always drop out the empty.

If I am not under duress I pluck out the empty[s] and place it in my back pocket and reload off of the belt around my waist.

However if I need to load fast I pluck out the empty[s], drop them at my feet as I reach back to the buttstock shell carrier, and withdraw a round.

If I am under serious duress I would load only the one round close the gun and fire, if I have time I load 2 rounds.

On a bog bore double when hunting cape buff or elephants, I have ONLY solids on the butt stock.

On my plains game double or when hunting lion with a big bore double I have the shells at the front of the shell carrier SOFTS, with the last ones at the rear SOLIDS.

I place the ammo in my waist belt in the same manner, softs up front and solids in the rear.

I have these butstock shell carriers on my bolt guns too so when hunting in cold weather, all of my spare ammo is not under several layers of clothing.

quote:

Originally posted by new_guy:
The idea here is to keep the rifle on your shoulder (like a bolt) and load with your strong hand.

Cutting the corner on shouldering the rifle after reloading - I guess it works only with ejectors?

I also reload from the hip with my strong hand (lefty tho), but since the rifle doesn't have ejectors I hold on the forearm, open the action and let the weight of the stock tumble the rifle over so the spent cases fall out. In the meantime I reach for the fresh pair and dump them in. Ammo is sorted in the holster with empty space between the cartridges, so I can put my middle finger between them. It is the inserting of the fresh catridges into chambers that could be improved - those suckers just don't align every time.

Looks fast.

I imagine that is going to be dependent upon a DR that is loose (or fixed!) so it falls or nearly falls open. Either that or be tougher than a hard opening rifle.

Might try that at the range, but I could see that being easier for a sissy like me with a little 9.3 Chapuis than a big (heavier) gun.

It does seem like a good idea, though. From where to get the two rounds to reload is always a problem. And I'm not sure is this would work while running.

It would be interesting to see a run off with the chap in picture 1 with a similar shooter shooting say the .600 N.E, and fired over the same number of rounds!

We all can second guess the results but it would be interesting to see what actually happened, i imagine at least one of the guys would be left with a hell of a sore shoulder

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:
The fastest way to reload any double is the way the cowboy action shooters do it.
Carry two rounds facing aft in your weak hand. Place them with the bullets facing your body flat in your weak palm. They will be between your forearm and your hand.
When you break the action open grip the round in your fist and dump them into the chambers.

Like this?

Video 2

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
I imagine that is going to be dependent upon a DR that is loose (or fixed!) so it falls or nearly falls open. Either that or be tougher than a hard opening rifle.

It looks like the rifle is falling open in the video, but I'll try to explain the mechanics a bit more now that everyone has seen the video.

After the second shot is fired:
> I pull the top lever over to open the rifle
> Pull the forearm down to open the gun, while also pulling it back into my shoulder (with only the left hand holding the barrels)
> The cartridges eject as the barrels are opening and the entire rifle is moving downward (that's why they look a little funny coming out - the angle is odd)

> Use the strong hand to pluck 2 from your belt. This only works for me with a cartridge carrier that allows 1/2" or more of the cartridge rims to extend above the carrier. Like Mouse says, the key for me is to get my right thumb between two cartridges (on the back side) and my first 3 fingers to grip the cartridges on the front side. Gripping the cartridges in that way keeps them pretty well aligned for getting them in the chambers.

> Cartridges now in the chambers, with the left hand coming up to bring the rifle back on target, and the right hand now free to grip the rifle, the rifle closes as I'm bringing it back on to the target.

This won't win any cowboy action shooting matches, but this isn't for contests either.

I see a weakness in bringing the rifle off of your shoulder to reload it, and I'm just trying to find a better and quicker way (not the fastest for show purposes) to reload.

I think a couple of seconds can be shaved off for the average guy because of two factors:
1) the rifle stays on your shoulder.
2) you can use your strong hand (better coordinated) to load

Maybe this is it, maybe not... but try it the next time you're at the range and report back with your findings.

PS - I've also put on an extra 15-pounds to demonstrate how critical the angle of the cartridges under the weight of your belly can be...

As has been mentioned, the original video seems (to me) to show a good argument for ejectors. I would think that the Cowboy style would not work for a heavy recoiling double rifle. Just my 2 cents.
Peter.

quote:

- I've also put on an extra 15-pounds to demonstrate how critical the angle of the cartridges under the weight of your belly can be...

You might just have to move the cartridge belt higher and higher.

but is it slower or faster with 2 triggers??

You 2-trigger guys are so, so sensitive.

If you have time to pluck empties from an extractor gun then pluck, but THE way to ditch 2 empties out of an extractor gun is exactly like the cowboys do it.

The cowboy action shooters have it down pat. Think about how quick they can reload a double shotgun using those round flat ended 12 gauge shells. How much easier it is with a round nosed bullet in a 470. But you have to practice the roll it in maneuver for quick and sure reloading.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
The cowboy action shooters have it down pat. Think about how quick they can reload a double shotgun using those round flat ended 12 gauge shells. How much easier it is with a round nosed bullet in a 470. But you have to practice the roll it in maneuver for quick and sure reloading.

465H&H

The point is not only to reload quickly, but to hit what you are shooting at as well. That is much easier with a shotgun that with a 11 lb 470 double rifle. Even in a heavy double rifle a 470NE has far more recoil than a 12 ga shot shell used in the cowboy compition!

The rifle Chris was useing, is most likely his Heym PH 450/400NE 3" double, and he is hitting the target. He is shooting against Monty Kalogeras,owner of Safari Shooting school. monty@safarishootingschool.com

The guy with the 12 ga is fast, and he may or may not be hitting anything, but I have my doubts he could do it that fast with a 470NE double rifle,or even the 450/400Ne 3" Chris is useing, and hit his target! Could be though!

Mac!

I was speaking about how fast they reload not how fast they shoot.

465H&H

A lot of Monty's double rifle clients are first-time owners and, in some cases, first time shooters.

Learning to shoot & reload a double is no different than learning to play golf or shoot a shotgun - with proper instruction early on, you're less likely to develop bad habits that are more difficult to correct later.

The videos do provide an accurate means of measuring reloading times (looking at the video time stamps frame by frame.) Monty is keeping some very meticulous notes on the subject, and it will be interesting to follow the data along the way.

Both rifles were 450/400s.

Here's a third video.

VIDEO 3

Where do you get one of them Michael Jackson shooting gloves for your left hand?

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Manion:
Where do you get one of them Michael Jackson shooting gloves for your left hand?

Ah, that's the super-exclusive Wells Lamont double rifle shooting glove available from Home Depot.

new guy

Chris, the way you shoot, why are you worried about a fast reload???

Seems a little slow and clumbsy but that is what the practice is for and I will say you are a good shot(past posts). The guy on the left is scary on the reload in the third video. If you want input I noticed you go to low on the break open. As a right hander I was corrected LOL and what I preach now hehheh is you break at high port arms with the barrels at about 45 degrees between your head and left shoulder. Making sure your left hand is not to close to the action at the break (this cause alot of fumbling and death) After the break you swipe down to that belly and palm the rounds on your left shell belt (at this point the muzzle is dropping a bit) holding the rounds against the palm with the thumb against the shells at mid point this gets them lined up for the the chamber width. The bullet are about even with the flat of the hand , this allows you to swipe the two rounds in using the flat of the hand by feel and guiding instead of looking at the rounds. If you shoot with 2 backup rounds in hand (only done this twice hunting in the last 15 years) I have the primer pointing at the target and yes with a gloved hand Jim, I hold them against the forearm.

I release that thumb that is holding them to the palm and use the forearm and glove to pad the wood. I would say that my Heym 500 forearm is perfect for this and my Krieg is a liitle thin at the front of the forearm. Something I found that was different in practice than in the bush is my tendancy to move towards the game once I have shot and after hard lessons I always shoot twice when possible. In practice I found If I would move as I reloaded forward my practice was better and speed would improve. By moving forward I feel you keep your options open on dangerous game as once the shot goes off you on the offense. If the chamber ever drops below the your belt line or have to look down you are on the defense.

Chris maybe if you could raise the shells on your right side up about 2-3 inches with the shells canted a little forward.I definately think your on to something. Like a competition pistol belt does on the mags.

Keep it coming and great rifles.

Nicely done, Chris!

If you don't have ejectors, a simple tilting of the opened rifle to one side or the other allows the cases to fall out. No need to pluck!

Going frame-by-frame, here are the times between the second and third shots being fired.

VIDEO 3
4.16 Seconds

VIDEO 2
4.21 Seconds

It would be interesting to analyze the videos of other techniques. Anyone want to set up their video camera this weekend? Just post the videos or email them to me, and I can break them down frame-by-frame.

Are you interested in vdieo of double triggers being slower than a single trigger?

He is either shooting a worn out ejector gun or a extractor gun!

I can do that with an extractor gun as the weight of the barrels will make the barrels drop by themselves..

However I doubt that I will ever get myself into such a position wherein I need to do be that fast...a better approach is very carefull shot placement, even in a charge situation..I hope I'm right on this, but so far so good!

That is fast. how far does a buff run in 4 seconds? I guess it depends on how much you flank him and keep dogin him to get a charge.I wonder what the record cowboy shoot is? Who can break 3 seconds? Well with snap caps I just came in at 2 minutes and 38 seconds, I spilt the Crown on the dog,the wife is pissed and the ivory bead on my moon sight just fell off. Gotta Go

Thanks for the frame count Chris, Still nice rifles

Rusty

If I don't "Pluck", I can't put the brass in my pocket.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
Rusty

If I don't "Pluck", I can't put the brass in my pocket.

I don't know about you but I have found putting cases in pocket is a bad habit .

It is a bad habit.

But when I am not under pressure it seem like the natural thing to do.

The main thiung is to have a reloading technique that works EVERY time when under pressure.

I use a couple of drillings and a single shot rifle, all extractor guns, that are chambered for rimless cartridges. The emptys will not fall out on their own. They must be "plucked".

Also I carried revolvers for work guns for many years. If you only fire a round or three, you do not want to dump out live rounds on the ground to use a speed loader. So may of us carried extra rounds in cartridge loops, in addition to speed loaders.
To top off a revolver, you open the cylinder, keeping the barrel pointing down, press the extractor up a little and pluck out the emptyies, and reload with live rounds out of the cartridge loops.

So you see, I use the same system for all of these different guns. It has become second nature for me.

This may not work for everyone but I like it. I make these wrist holders out of beer can insulators by cutting the bottom off with scissors.

When getting close I pull a couple solids out of my belt and stick them in as in this picture except usually pushed a little farther in.

I am usually wearing a long sleeve shirt because of the Tetse flies and that might help keep the bullets from coming out. I have never had them come out with the recoil.



For me, its quick to pull them out with the left hand and drop them in.



This may not work so well if trying to hold the butt on your shoulder as you reload however. I have never tried that but for me the key to quickly reloading is getting the bullets close to where they are going and accessible without taking my eyes off the animal.

Allen that is avery good idea! Cheap as well!

I like the Galco "DOUBLE DUTY", and leather box that holds two rounds loosely. With the thumb flipp the box open, while lowering you hand, it dumps two rounds into you hand. I find these little gadgits to be very effective in cutting time getting the second two rounds into a double rifle. I also load the barrels with my left hand, so my trigger hand never leaves the grip close to the triggers! This is about the same as keeping the butt on the shoulder, because the butt stock is between your ribs, and upper arm, so you don't have to take your eyes off the target, or her sisters!

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
I use a buttstock shell carrier made by Murray Leather. On a hard kicking rifle the leather does not scratch or cut your face like the elastic ones will.

Totally agree.

Chris, I believe that the buttstock shell carrier is the answer for faster reloading IF you choose to use the strong hand for reload, just have two ready on the stock 5 inches away from the breach of the rifle. The most important thing I see with the buttstock shell carrier is that you won't have to take your eyes off of your target, peripheral vision lets you see the shells on the stock.

Of course Will would have a fit with this set up because it would add a couple of ounces to the overall weight of the rifle. You know that's the primary reason Will likes just one trigger, the other trigger is just extra weight.

As for me a couple of oz's on the buttstock of the 500 not an issue. This is the setup I'm going to have.

Dirk

Good idea.

Better yet would be to get Will to make up some type of wrist carrier out of Buf or Ele hide.

The only problem with Palmers idea is that you will be putting salty/sweaty rounds in your chambers, and running might jar them out, also what if your are charged unexpectently???

I have found the Murray buttstock shell carrier to work the best. I fill it up, ie 6 rounds on a big bore, 9 rounds on a medium bore.

They are always there... when you are walking... riding in the Safari Car...
sleeping in the tent, with the double at your side... even when you have your double stuck out the window of a blind shooting pigs.

Many times I have reloaded my double while on the run from the buttstock shell carrier.

Try it, you might like it.

I use one on most all for my rifles, single shot, bolt and lever action.

On my Drillings, I have a Murray buttstock shell carrier, he custom made for me, that carries both rifle shells and shotgun shells.

quote:

Originally posted by new_guy:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by surestrike:
The fastest way to reload any double is the way the cowboy action shooters do it.
Carry two rounds facing aft in your weak hand. Place them with the bullets facing your body flat in your weak palm. They will be between your forearm and your hand.
When you break the action open grip the round in your fist and dump them into the chambers.

Like this?

Video 2


Yeah just like that only don't fumble flip the reload.

Hell, everyone knows the next two rounds are carried in loops on yer shirt.