Someone in America doesan't make an Old School Double.

Lets consider a double rifle, english style , A&D action, 470 Nitro express an Army & Navy clone. What would it cost an American company to build one today?

maxbear this has been discussed before I believe. The regulation of doubles does not seem to be a process that lends itself to automation, unless you let the user do this, but then , it is not an old school double. In addition, how many people would buy this type of gun? I am sure that if there was money to be made, someone would do it.
Peter.

The Searcy "Classic" is pretty close IMO...

they do...
rouge river (or whatever)
seracy
john rigby

are american guns..

the FACT is that the market is willing to pay 10K + for a double, and there's no reason to sell for less... which is part of the reaons the spartan didn't come in

I will say I havent been able to look at a Searcy yet. I would be very much like to see one. Is their Rib extension condsidered a 3rd bite?

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
they do...
rouge river (or whatever)
seracy
john rigby

are american guns..

the FACT is that the market is willing to pay 10K + for a double, and there's no reason to sell for less... which is part of the reaons the spartan didn't come in

jeffoso

I agree with Searcy but do you honestly call Rigby American made ???

Also, agree with 2nd comment about if the sell for $10k, why sell them for any less but why do you say that is the reason for the Spartan did not come in ?

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
maxbear this has been discussed before I believe. The regulation of doubles does not seem to be a process that lends itself to automation, unless you let the user do this, but then , it is not an old school double. In addition, how many people would buy this type of gun? I am sure that if there was money to be made, someone would do it.
Peter.

Before I say anything else, let me say I'm not picking on Peter! Just using his post to illustrate the fact that it seems everyone is under the impression that the regulation of the barrels is the reason for the cost of a double rifle. Regulation is important, but it is only a small part of the reason for the cost involved in building a quality double rifle!

The 600, 700 man-hours needed to build a well made BOXLOCK double rifle is not just the regulation, in
Fact is only about 3,or 4 hours of the skilled labor required to produce the finished product.

The building of a double rifle requires, in most cases several people over a number of months, to do. In most cases the actions are bought in rough form, in the white, with the rough formed pieces of the locks. This is the first place the skilled labor starts. The action has the various parts, like trigger plates, fitted to the action, then the locks fitted to the action, and all mating surfaces polished to a clock's fine tolerances, then the actuator levers fitted, and made to move just far enough to cock the locks, all screws are made, and screwed in place, with the heads left protruding. Now the action's surfaces are sculpted to it's basic final shape, and tangs bent to the proper angles. Now, the lock-up parts are fitted to work by the movement of a top lever, or clip lock, or under lever, and timed properly. At this point, the action is only rough finished, and all that work was done by a very skilled action man, by hand, and we are only to the roughed in action.

At this point, the barrel set has been roughed in, and if the barrels are to be chopper lump, the barrels are shaped so that the surfaces that are to be fit together, are hand fit so the two barrels, with the un-cut lumps are fitted together, side by side, with the quarter rib tied together by wiring, after fitting the pieces together, for brazing together. Now, begins the fitting the barrel set to the action, and there are multiple surfaces that must fit together, perfectly, and meet all at the same time on closing the action. No machine ever invented can do any of the very complex things that have been done by the time these two pieces, rough barrel set, and rough action are mated together, and the fitting of the lock-up parts are still to be fitted. If no engraving is to be done, the action, is dismantled, and all wear surfaces heat treated to final hardness. The action body is hardened at this point, and all parts re-assembled to check for warpage, and honed to relieve any that is found.

Now, wood is fitted and shaped, to a rough finish, and one coat of finish applied so the regulator can have the rifle for regulating. Now the regulation comes into the picture, after about 400 man-hours of very skilled work has been done. The primary regulation of the barrels can begin. At this point, the barrels are "EDUCATED GUESS" converged as a starting point, and wedges soldered in. The rifle is fired, and then adjusted till it is very close with temporary sights. The regulation is only done to the point where the barrels shoot side by side, on the target, and at the same elevation to each other. This a point no well understood by the layman!

The barrels are not regulated to cross at any distance, contrary to popular belief. The saying in the ads that the rifle is regulated to 100 yds exacerbates this thinking. This statement doesn't mean the barrels cross at that point, but is a separate regulation all together. By this I mean distance only applies to the sights, and only involves where the composite group of both barrels hits the target when using the sights installed. So there are two regulations in a double rifle, one for the proper convergence, of the barrels to they shoot side by side, at ANY range, with the regulating load, and that they shoot both to the same elevation, again, at any range, and the second is simply the cutting of the sights for the aiming point, at a given range for the sight involved. A better word for this sighting in of the sights would be "ZEROED" to shoot point of aim at 100 yds!

Then the ribs, and front sight ramp are soldered in place, and quarter rib milled to install a rear express sight, and a high front BLADE for the regulation. Now the final soldering of the ribs can be done.

The rifle then the wood is finished, and all mettle surfaces carded, and polished, and Rust blue applied to barrels. And then the rifle is given to the sight regulator, to cut the sights to proper windage, and elevation, place in the point of aim in the middle of the composite group of both barrels, at whatever range he is cutting the sights for. Most double rifle will have at least two rear sights, one STANDING, and one flip up! The standing on a dangerous game double will normally be cut for 50 mtrs, and the FLIP-UP to 100 Mtrs. Smaller doubles will have the standing cut for 100 mtrs, and the flip-up at 200 mtrs. Now the rifle is finished with the final sights cut, and the cosmetic finish inspected, and finally fired the last time by the regulator to make sure nothing has moved, and boxed, and shipped to the customer, who has been waiting, about 1 1/2 years for his rifle, and has long since forgotten the money he has spent having this rifle made.

The big difference between a double rifle made to fit a customer, and an off the shelf one is only the some of the things like adjusting the length of pull, is the customer's responsibility, by installing a recoil pad to the butt, to the length he needs! The hand work that must be done is still in the rifle, but some of the hog work, like the sculpting of the action is done by a machine, in some cases, and some of the rough fitting is done by machinists. The final fit, is done in both by hand, by very skilled artisans, and those people are few and far between anyplace, and even fewer in the USA!

THE COST OF MAKING A DOUBLE IS THERE, YOU SIMPLY MUST UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE BUYING, TO SEE IT!

I admit freely to not knowing any thing about double rifles ( other than I want one badly ) but I have a hard time figuring why they can not built at a cost closer in line with a double shot gun. I know the rifled barrels would cost more and the pressures would be higher. But I don't understand why all the hand work is necessary. I don't think all side by side shotguns have this much hand work involved.

I am not trying to start a fight, but I am curious. Could it perhaps be "economy of scale"?

I dont think the "economy" (if a DR can be that)market is a good place for a gunmaker today, living in the western world. There are a few makers of guns in India an Pakistan for example; that make copies of traditional guns. When someone teaches them some QA measures, they can compete with us for peanuts!

A maker, here, of relativly expensive hunting guns (that DR are) should perhaps consentrate on the prestige segment?!

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
jeffoso

I agree with Searcy but do you honestly call Rigby American made ???

Also, agree with 2nd comment about if the sell for $10k, why sell them for any less but why do you say that is the reason for the Spartan did not come in ?

Howdy,
sure, here's a quote from the rigby website
http://www.johnrigbyandco.com/pages/History.html

quote:

1997 - Rigby was acquired by an American investment group headed by Geoff Miller, of Paso Robles, California. John Rigby & Co. will continue to produce the finest, best quality, dangerous game sporting rifles and shotguns.

So, yeah, a new rigby is an american gun... same guy own rouge river (or whatever) last i checked.

remmie figured out that even a "user friendly regulation" would require lots more than the 585/715/999/ or whatever they final estimate was before they took it off the shelf...
would I pay 1K for a spartan? sure... 2k? no way

all in, i can build myself a double for about 2k.. no engraving, no facny work, no nothing .. just goes bang in the same general area.... and If I can't do it for myself for that price, how any anyone else and make a profit?

Rogue River, didn't you read Zane Grey growing up?

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

quote:

Originally posted by maxbear:
Someone in America doesan't make an Old School Double.

Lets consider a double rifle, english style , A&D action, 470 Nitro express an Army & Navy clone. What would it cost an American company to build one today?

The typical Army & Navy double rifles were nice. Most of them were built by Webley (excellent quality), a few by others. For what a new built Webley boxlock DR retailed for in the 1920s, you could have bought a decent new car. Those that are built in America today are a long way from that standard. The basic Webley design is being built to decent quality abroad today, but again, is not cheap, not is it realistic to expect it to be. The American gun trade doesn't have a tradition of building double rifles to begin with, nor do we have a tradition of building any kind of gun that costs that much, as the American shooter is wedded to cheap, mass-produced guns.
----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

400 Nitro

Well written.

I look around and people will spend about 4-5 grand on a damn 4 wheeler. But those same guys will complain about the price of 500 dollar marlin or whatever. I don't understand it. Ten years from now that 4 wheeler will be in the scrape yard, if they would of spent that much on a rifle it would still be in the gun case. Keep it long enough and you can pass it on to your son. It will be something he can really be proud of, after all Dad had taste.

Thanks for the correction by the way.

Ok, so what would it cost to reproduce an Army and Navy double on a Webley action. The rifle would have AE,DT, No engraving, etc.. a working rifle.

MacD37

Thanks for the informative post.

jeffeosso, If I am not mistaken the California Rigby's are built on a Merkel action. I though they were made in Germany?

quote:

Originally posted by maxbear:
Ok, so what would it cost to reproduce an Army and Navy double on a Webley action. The rifle would have AE,DT, No engraving, etc.. a working rifle.

A&S (Famars) makes a clone of the W&S boxlock. Last year's price was $43,500 with minimal engraving (less than shown below.)

Correct me if I'm wrong. The Searcy receiver is cast not forged. No thanks. The Rigby is built on a Merkel action. Rather buy a nicely equipped Merkel. Don't know what Rogue River does. I thought they sold alot of Chapuis.

Seems that the US is lacking a combination of deep talent and money in ONE venture. I'd like nothing better than to see this happen. But I don't think it exists. I guess JJ or Owen(?) could run it but alot of other talent is needed. Yes?

quote:

Originally posted by Showbart:
Correct me if I'm wrong. The Searcy receiver is cast not forged. No thanks.

Where did you get this info?

quote:

Originally posted by JTEX:
I admit freely to not knowing any thing about double rifles ( other than I want one badly ) but I have a hard time figuring why they can not built at a cost closer in line with a double shot gun. I know the rifled barrels would cost more and the pressures would be higher. But I don't understand why all the hand work is necessary. I don't think all side by side shotguns have this much hand work involved.

I am not trying to start a fight, but I am curious. Could it perhaps be "economy of scale"?

Shotguns are not regulated any closer then to get both barrels to pattern on the same 30 inch circle at 35 yds, and they don't have to be fitted any closer than is necessary to hold shotshell pressures. This is why it is not the best idea anyone ever had to build a double rifle from a shotgun. A shot gun that is really suitable for conversion to a double rifle will cost you $5K before you start, and will run at least $10K if you furnish the fitting at no cost. In the end, you still have a converted shotgun, not a real double rifle!

Whether you see the need for all the hand fitting or not, means nothing, to discount it's value to the process of makeing a double rifle, that is worth owning! Even the $12K "off-the-shelf" double rifles have the short cuts you suggest, by useing mono-blocked, or shoelump barrel sets, which are more suitable for some machine work that must be done by hand in a classic chopper lump rifle. It still doesn't make a double rifle much cheaper.

The assembly line mentality of Americans has always mandated a BUILD IT QUICK, and CHEAP, thought process when looking at anything! Some things simply cost more to make, and the double rifle unfortunently is one of those things!

I would advise you to simply buy a used Merkel, or Chapuis, in the $8K range, and enjoy your rifle. I've never seen a $8K used car you could trade for a double rifle, and a used car that cost only $8K is going to be a junker! That is about as cheap as you will get a double rifle you can depend on when things get tough! The DRSS needs more folks to join the fun of owning, and hunting with good side by side double rifles!

quote:

Originally posted by Showbart:
Correct me if I'm wrong. The Searcy receiver is cast not forged. No thanks. The Rigby is built on a Merkel action. Rather buy a nicely equipped Merkel. Don't know what Rogue River does. I thought they sold alot of Chapuis.

Seems that the US is lacking a combination of deep talent and money in ONE venture. I'd like nothing better than to see this happen. But I don't think it exists. I guess JJ or Owen(?) could run it but alot of other talent is needed. Yes?

I hate to tell you this, but Merkel action bodies are cast as well! And Rougue River, and rigby are the same people, The old Rogue River is now Rigby.

I could be wrong but I think Searcy's actions are milled from a solid forged bar! Still there is nothing wrong with modern casting, they still have to be machined, and fitted!

I pretty sure I picked it up here. Like I said, if wrong....

I didn't know that the Merkel was cast. Glad I'm not buying one after all. I'm not suprised that it is but I am a little that I had my head up my butt and didn't know it. What about Chapuis, cast or forged receivers?

My thoughts on this continue along that of an entry level guns, as my hijacking indicates. I just assume if there were a new player in the US that it start with entry level product as bread & butter. I'd think the chance even more remote that a shop would form here and make only high end guns in numbers large enough to make it a full fledged firearms comany, albeit small, what-couple/few hundred.

quote:

Originally posted by Showbart:
I pretty sure I picked it up here. Like I said, if wrong....

I didn't know that the Merkel was cast. Glad I'm not buying one after all. I'm not suprised that it is but I am a little that I had my head up my butt and didn't know it. What about Chapuis, cast or forged receivers?

My thoughts on this continue along that of an entry level guns, as my hijacking indicates. I just assume if there were a new player in the US that it start with entry level product as bread & butter. I'd think the chance even more remote that a shop would form here and make only high end guns in numbers large enough to make it a full fledged firearms comany, albeit small, what-couple/few hundred.

Searcy makes 50 a year, maximum, and he seems to do all right.

50 ain't much. Just depends on the size of the shop.

Do we even have schooling here for those wanting to go directly into FINE gunmaking? They have the courses in Europe, along with placement for apprentice positions etc.

i picked up an entry-lever DR in the last group buy... a chapuis UGEX 9,3x 74r... for right around $4500... it fits me, my shooting habits, and will go to africa with me next year after a leopard... i looked at the california rigby's, searcy's, new krieghoffs, and picked the chapuis, because of price... i'm a working guy that can't afford a $50k DR... my next will be a used merkel or heym.... either a .450/400 or a .470ne...

First like said before, there is nothing wrong with cast parts. They can be strong and durable. I bet a lot (I dont know for a fact)of pre-war guns were cast and those are what some hold as the holy grail of doubles. Like Mac said it is the fit and finish put into the components that make the guns into fine rifles.

I know Ken Owen and he casts his actions, and finishes them well, they are strong and durable.
There are just not alot of folks with the know how to do one correctly. Heck the gunsmithing in general is a dying trade, much less gunmaking.

It is also a class in economics. You have to build alot of guns to make any money. Then you have to deal with cheap customers that want somthing for nothing (very few want to pay what its worth, we all want a Killer deal) I been in manufacturing and sales all my life. It has been in chemicals and Pharma., but I can tell you when you deal with the general public they beat you down unless your product becomes sheik, or your production is so low your production doesnt meet demand (usually you lose customers and donot make any money).

To sum it up I think in time we will see a modern double that will resonable (heck they are out there for less than 8K) but will not be traditional A&D style, but it will not be of the Famars or Heym class.

Just my rants! Fire away!!!

Ed

quote:

Originally posted by maxbear:
I look around and people will spend about 4-5 grand on a damn 4 wheeler. But those same guys will complain about the price of 500 dollar marlin or whatever. I don't understand it. Ten years from now that 4 wheeler will be in the scrape yard, if they would of spent that much on a rifle it would still be in the gun case. Keep it long enough and you can pass it on to your son. It will be something he can really be proud of, after all Dad had taste.

I agree entirely. It's never made any sense to me either.

quote:

Ok, so what would it cost to reproduce an Army and Navy double on a Webley action. The rifle would have AE,DT, No engraving, etc.. a working rifle.

Take a close look at the photo new_guy posted. That's the current gun that's patterned closely on Webley's A & W C Model that I was referring to. If you can find photos, compare it to a Webley built Army & Navy. Even the doll's head is close to the original's shape (Some Webley built Army & Navy's were PHV-1s, which has a different shaped doll's head, some were A & W C's). A & S Famars builds and retails some of these themselves, but many are sold to the trade as barreled actions in the white (to other makers who stock and finish them and sell them under their own names). Other makers that have used A & S barreled actions for their DRs have included the later British Rigby boxlock DRs (not California), the current W. J. Jeffery, William Evans, Beretta (the A & S sidelock model is the basis of Beretta's 455EELL), etc. I'm not sure I'm remembering this correctly, but I seem to recall that the boxlock barreled action alone sells for $15,000+. Obviously, the finished rifles aren't going to be cheap...and the performance of the dollar against the Euro ain't helping any.

Can it be done cheaper here? Given a guy that knows double rifles, understands the build quality issues, and has adequate capital, maybe, but I think it would be tough. As has been said, we don't have the tradition of building such guns here (and what double gun building tradition we did have has been gone for 70 years) so we don't have the pool of labor with the necessary skills. Much easier in Europe, and Showbart's last post is spot on as to why.

JTEX asked why DRs cost more than double shotguns, and questioned the need for so much handwork. Part of the answer is simply the difference between the two, but much of the answer is volume. Double rifle production has never been, and will never be, more than a tiny fraction of double shotgun production. For example, Holland, a maker known for it's double rifles, is making 100 guns a year again now, and 10 to 15% of that is double rifles - and they're making more double rifles today than they've made in decades. Sure, modern CNC machinery can produce parts to amazing tolerances and greatly reduce (but not eliminate) the amount of handwork required - and some old-line DR makers have invested heavily in those machines. Again though, it's volume. What's the bailout factor on $1 million in high-tech machines when you're building 100 units a year? That's why some of the old-line DR makers have foregone the high-tech machines - they don't make it any cheaper.
----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by maxbear:
I look around and people will spend about 4-5 grand on a damn 4 wheeler. But those same guys will complain about the price of 500 dollar marlin or whatever. I don't understand it. Ten years from now that 4 wheeler will be in the scrape yard, if they would of spent that much on a rifle it would still be in the gun case. Keep it long enough and you can pass it on to your son. It will be something he can really be proud of, after all Dad had taste.

I agree too. Tons of guys have 50k+ in an RV, 4 wheelers, boats, etc, but won't pay 1k for a gun. I drive an 11k truck and shoot a 40k rifle. In 10 (more) years the truck will be rust but the rifle will be going strong another 100 years from now and will be even rarer. I hate to say this, but I'm always amazed that DRs are as "cheap" as they are. Try hiring a mediocre plumber or auto mechanic for 600 or 700 hours and see what your bill is. A master gunmaker is truly an artist and will always be in short supply.

Considering the cost of skilled labor today, if you can find it, I think there are deals to be had with vintage DRs if you shop for quality. I rationalize to my wife that they quit making 100 year old rifles 100 years ago, and there isn’t anything we can do to go back and make another. To me the main appeal of new rifles is the replacement ability. I also fear that the advent of cnc machining, while allowing rifles to be made more “cheaply†by doing the hog work, could ultimately kill off the skill needed to keep the art alive.

Bob

I consider an entry level DR a big bore. My slant, I know it's flawed. 9.3 DRs are terrific and I've got an eye on another one for next year. But to my way of thinking, the maker is truly accomplished if they can turn out a fine big bore DR.

Take Siace for example, beautiful guns, but why can't they just start producing big bores. It's just a matter of scaling up right, but then again it's all so much more than that. Demas had never made a 577 but had been making 470s & 500s for years so they just scaled up, for the most part, and they made what looks to be a terrific rifle. One will be stateside soon and time will tell.

My point is, touching on earlier statements, the US is at a huge disadvantage it seem when it comes to knowledge and talent. If a small maker like Siace can't just scale up their 9.3 with a snap of a finger that tells me they need the experience of making big bores. Seems very few indeed in the US are capable of making even small to medium bore quality doubles much less big bores. Searcy is the only game in town it seems. I never even bothered to look beyond Searcy.

What it boils down to is, if you like it and afford it, get it. I don't know of too many places that make "forged" anythings anymore. It's not cost effective.

quote:

Originally posted by Showbart:
Correct me if I'm wrong. The Searcy receiver is cast not forged. No thanks. The Rigby is built on a Merkel action. Rather buy a nicely equipped Merkel. Don't know what Rogue River does. I thought they sold alot of Chapuis.

searcy is machined from stock
all steel, at one point or another is cast
if rigby=merkel then why are they 7 times as much?

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
if rigby=merkel then why are they 7 times as much?

Because they thought they could buy a "name" ?

www.ttproctor.com buys FORGED action bodies, [in the rough for sure] from a UK company

called Phillipson I believe. This company is the source used by H&H and Purdey too I am told

told. These action bodies are NOT milled NOR are they cast. They are forged per the traditional

U K method. IS THIS THE WAY FAMARS IS DOING THEIR ACTIONS?

Well now! The Spartan is in fact here. I have one on the way in 30/06 for a customer. Sold by another dealer for $999.00 My major supplier had 8 guns which were snapped up without our knowledge-oh well. The 45/70s are supposed to be here after the first of the year. Go to gunsamerica, and type in spr22. Cheers

would love to see that

Just put the spartan together, and it seems to be of adequate fit and finish. Par I would say for the Russian made guns. The stock is quite straight, and will probably require use of a scope. The ribs are floating and made of sheetmetal, with the regulation being accomplished via an adjustment under the barrels, and just in front of the forearm Certainly not a Searcy, but I think a lot of people will now be able to enjoy the Magic" of shooting a side by side rifle. Cheers

There won't be any "magic" in that thing.
-----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

Originally posted by 400 Nitro Express:
There won't be any "magic" in that thing.

Well thanks for clearing all this up for me. I understand now.

It's always interesting to read what everyone has to write.

I have shouldered a few old Army and Navy doubles, and they have great balance to me. A 12 pound rifle never seemed so light. To me they are unlike a 12 pound bolt gun.

I will definatley have to look at a Searcy sometime, and see how they measure up. That Searcy Classic sure looks like a "keeper".

Thanks for the education everybody.

quote:

Originally posted by maxbear:
Well thanks for clearing all this up for me. I understand now.

It's always interesting to read what everyone has to write.

I have shouldered a few old Army and Navy doubles, and they have great balance to me. A 12 pound rifle never seemed so light. To me they are unlike a 12 pound bolt gun.

I will definatley have to look at a Searcy sometime, and see how they measure up. That Searcy Classic sure looks like a "keeper".

Thanks for the education everybody.

A&N double rifles were not made by just one maker, and none were made by Army&navy, so what you are talking about are rifles from several different makers with the trade name Army&Navy. It is amazing to me that all A&N double rifles you've handled felt the same way. The Army&Navy is similar to our PX, and was simply a store who bought things to sell to the Military people stationed away from home. Rifles, and shotguns was not all they sold, and the A&N label was simply a store brand, not a maker!

MacD37

I did know that Army and Navy was just a 'name'. Sorry if I used the term to loosley. The Army and Navy's that I have looked at have been 500 Nitro's. I have shouldered a 465 Nitro H&H, 450/400 Charles Lancaster and a few others. All nice guns for feel and handling.

What is your favorite double rifle/caliber?

Happy Thanksgiving