A Vintage Verney Carron .475 No.2 Nitro Express - French or Belgium Maker ?

Hello Fellow Forum members.

As you may have gathered from my classified want-ad posts where I'm looking for brass, bullets and dies, I've added another double rifle to the collection.

This is what happens when you go to the "Annual Great Northern Side-by-Side Classic Shoot in Medford, Wisconsin, and you run into a good salesman from Washington, who has a fine Double Rifle in a caliber that was not yet in my collection. And so, it followed me home.

Here are the specs:

Verney Carron .475 No.2 Nitro Express
Built in 1929
Weight = 10 lbs
LOP = 14-3/8"
Barrel Length = 25-3/4"
Rear Sights = 1 Stand 2 Folding on Matted Quarter Rib
Extractors
Hinged Front Trigger
Chopper-lump Barrels
Rib Extension with Scott's Hidden 3rd Bite
Reinforced Frame
Bushed Firing Pins
Reinforced Comb
Unknown Letter Monogram on Bottom of Stock Behind Grip
Unknown Silver Crest Inlay on Bottom of Stock
Silvers Style Red Recoil Pad

Markings as follows;

Left Barrel Top marked - .475 No.2 Nitro Express - Cordite - 85 Grains - 480 Grain
Right Barrel Top marked - Verney Carron - Liege
Both Barrel Bottoms marked - .475 No.2 Express - B.BLINDEE
Left Barrel Bottom marked JF - with Eagle's Head Stamp (Jean Falla)
Left Side Action marked - Verney Carron, Liege
Bottom Rib under the Forearm marked - 500 GUNS INDIANAPOLIS,IN
Various Belgium Proofs with an h 1929 Date Code

Either this rifle was hardly ever used, or incredibly well cared for, because the action is tight as a Bank Vault (so tight it takes an effort to open and close) and the Chambers and Bores are Mirror Bright. Close examination shows period Re-Blackened Barrels and Cleaned Action.

I've made contact with Verney Carron in France with the help of Ken Bush, who has forwarded pictures in hopes that VC may have some additional information. However, it is somewhat doubtful because most all of their records were lost during WWII. If nothing else, I'm hoping to find out if this rifle was "made by" Verney Carron, and proofed in Liege, or if it was "made for" Verney Carron by a Belgium maker. Or perhaps Verney Carron had a sister Company in Belgium.

As per my classified posts, I have no shooting results to share as of yet because I don't have any brass, bullets, or dies.

As always, your comments and insights about this rifle and its markings are most welcome. I would especially like to know if anyone recognizes the Unknown "Letter Monogram" on Bottom of Stock Behind Grip, or the Unknown "Silver Crest" Inlay on the Bottom of the Stock.

These old double ooze class and character. I really don't know why folks buy new stuff.
Here's to old weapons, old cars, old women.
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
These old double ooze class and character. I really don't know why folks buy new stuff.
Here's to old weapons, old cars, old women.
Cal

Hello Cal Pappas.

Thanks for the reply.

I can't agree more. I love these Vintage Rifles.

I found this piece of information while researching this rifle's markings.

".... Jean Falla, Liege, was a barrelmaker who used several marks to denote different steels they used. The eagle's head denoted compressed steel by the Belgian Cockerill steelworks near Liege. Here is an ad from the interwar years: ...."

Lovely rifle and a nice weight!

Stix, you sure do come upon some nice and interesting stuff!

Love the extended top tang on a rifle.

Lovely rifle and with chopper lump barrels---great find.

I'm a huge Verney Carron fan. Love em.

But looking at this vintage rifle, I have to ask, what possessed the company to diverge from the "English" and specifically "Westley Richards" proportions displayed here and start making them to appear more "German" with the beavertail forearms?



The lines on this old rifle are gorgeous.



When I had my current VC built, it was at the point where they were starting to listen to the market requests for a true splinter forearm. Not wanting to go all the way on the first date I suppose, mine came out with a semi splinter. A vast improvement over the beaver but still a long way from being "proper".



A year or so later, they came out with their "WR" model ... a rifle that has very similar "English" lines to this vintage piece.



To my eye, I prefer this "WR" style over the "H&H".

Not sure if Morton is still lurking around the forum but if so, THIS rifle displays what I always referred to in our debates as a historically proper forearm for a DR.

Lovely rifle in a great caliber..

Congratulation.

My untrained eyes spotted the very English looks and also the nice weight!

Another heart thumping experience when looking at such rifle pictures. Thanks!

Hello Rockdoc
Hello Biebs
Hello 7kongoni
Hello Transvaal
Hello Pondoro
Hello Nakihunter

Thanks to all of you for the reply and compliments. I really appreciate it.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
I'm a huge Verney Carron fan. Love em.

But looking at this vintage rifle, I have to ask, what possessed the company to diverge from the "English" and specifically "Westley Richards" proportions displayed here and start making them to appear more "German" with the beavertail forearms?

The lines on this old rifle are gorgeous.

When I had my current VC built, it was at the point where they were starting to listen to the market requests for a true splinter forearm. Not wanting to go all the way on the first date I suppose, mine came out with a semi splinter. A vast improvement over the beaver but still a long way from being "proper".

A year or so later, they came out with their "WR" model ... a rifle that has very similar "English" lines to this vintage piece.

To my eye, I prefer this "WR" style over the "H&H".

Not sure if Morton is still lurking around the forum but if so, THIS rifle displays what I always referred to in our debates as a historically proper forearm for a DR.

Hello Todd Williams

Thanks for the reply.

Yes! You are "right-on" when it comes to the "look" of a fine double. I think that's what attracted me to this one in the first place.

Here is a photo comparing this Vintage VC from 1929, (above) to the VC 600NE that I purchased in September 2015. (below) In my opinion, this Vintage VC has the better "look" of a fine double rifle.

Lovely rifle!
How long is the forend? 200mm?

Hello ozhunter

Thanks for the reply.

I just measured it. Measured from the front edge of the wood to rear edge of the wood, it is 180.97mm. Measured from the front of the take-down button to the rear of the metal edge, it is 200.025mm. So I guess the answer to your question is ... yes.

quote:

In my opinion, this Vintage VC has the better "look" of a fine double rifle.

Absolutely 100%
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by buckstix:
Hello ozhunter

Thanks for the reply.

I just measured it. Measured from the front edge of the wood to rear edge of the wood, it is 180.97mm. Measured from the front of the take-down button to the rear of the metal edge, it is 200.025mm. So I guess the answer to your question is ... yes.

Thanks for that.
Modern gun makers should work on that

is the bore diameter .483" or .488 (Jeffery .475 No. 2)? If .488, I have some loaded ammo I could part with.

quote:

Originally posted by subsailor74:
is the bore diameter .483" or .488 (Jeffery .475 No. 2)? If .488, I have some loaded ammo I could part with.

Hello subsailor74

Thanks for the reply.

This rifle takes the "Eley" cartridge with a .483 bullet.

However, I might still be interested in your loaded ammo just to obtain some brass. But not, if its head stamped with a "J" for the Jeffery round.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
I'm a huge Verney Carron fan. Love em.

But looking at this vintage rifle, I have to ask, what possessed the company to diverge from the "English" and specifically "Westley Richards" proportions displayed here and start making them to appear more "German" with the beavertail forearms?



The lines on this old rifle are gorgeous.



When I had my current VC built, it was at the point where they were starting to listen to the market requests for a true splinter forearm. Not wanting to go all the way on the first date I suppose, mine came out with a semi splinter. A vast improvement over the beaver but still a long way from being "proper".



A year or so later, they came out with their "WR" model ... a rifle that has very similar "English" lines to this vintage piece.



To my eye, I prefer this "WR" style over the "H&H".

Not sure if Morton is still lurking around the forum but if so, THIS rifle displays what I always referred to in our debates as a historically proper forearm for a DR.

Ha ha Todd ... I am still lurking around ... I am just waiting for you to show me your new splinter fixed on your VC


Morten

Well, it's not going to happen Morten. Jines and I spoke to JJ about correcting both of our Round Body actioned VC's but the consensus was it would be more trouble than it's worth. So it is what it is at this point.

But you have to admit, this vintage rifle looks much better than the 600 NE the OP owns as well. That forearm is NOT for hanging onto, it's simply to keep the barrels mated to the action. You hang onto the barrels.

That forearm is NOT for hanging onto, it's simply to keep the barrels mated to the action. You hang onto the barrels.

Say this louder. No one seems to understand this.
Cal

Nice and thank you.

Coming from shotguns, specifically, my father in laws model 21. I initially was in favor of a more bevertail forend. Heym USA and the body politic changed my mind.

I am very much pro splinter even on a shot gun.

Very nice rifle - wonder if it can tell the story of where its been.

Given that its very tight and stiff, and that it still has polishing lines on the breech face, and its been re-blacked, I expect this has been tightened quite recently. Likewise the bores have had a little polish.

Nothing wrong with doing that and its good to go for another 80 or 100 years of use. A few boxes of cartridges soon removes that initial tightness.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:

Nice and thank you.

Coming from shotguns, specifically, my father in laws model 21. I initially was in favor of a more bevertail forend. Heym USA and the body politic changed my mind.

I am very much pro splinter even on a shot gun.

Hello LHeym500,

Thank for the reply.

I too prefer a splinter forend, but the lack of that feature wouldn't stop me from buying a nice vintage double.

quote:

Originally posted by Heym SR20:

Very nice rifle - wonder if it can tell the story of where its been.

Given that its very tight and stiff, and that it still has polishing lines on the breech face, and its been re-blacked, I expect this has been tightened quite recently. Likewise the bores have had a little polish.

Nothing wrong with doing that and its good to go for another 80 or 100 years of use. A few boxes of cartridges soon removes that initial tightness.

Hello Heym SR20,

Thanks for the reply.

I've recently found some History about my rifle's making.

From Axel E on another Forum;

"..... According to Gadisseur & Druart, "Le Qui est Qui…", Verney – Carron & Cie. had A Liege, Belgium, address at Rue Lamarck 121 from 1924 on, besides their French St. Etienne address. Apparently they had guns made by the Liege guntrade. In 1929 their Liege branch was taken over by Antoine Cordy, so the rifle can be dated to 1928 – 29 ....."

That would explain the "Verney Carron Liege" markings and the date code "h" for 1929 is spot-on.

I have also found that the rifle was sold through HOLT'S auction in England in 2011, and that the US buyer imported it through 500 Guns in Indianapolis, IN. I haven't been able to locate that buyer, but maybe someday he'll run across this post.

Then in 2016 the rifle was again placed for auction, this time with Rock Island. The gentleman that bought it from RI and owned the rifle right before me, saw my post and contacted me with some History about the rifle. When he got the rifle from RI, he sent it off to JJ for rework. He said he didn't shoot it very much since then, hence its still being very tight. Nice thing was that he gave me the hand-load that he used - IMR3031 w/ 480g Woodleigh bullets. He indicated that it regulated very well with that load, and the only reason he decided to sell this rifle was because he found another 475 No.2 NE with "All The Whistles & Bells". I can't wait to get some components and take it to the range.

He said that the "Initials & Silver Crest" on the bottom of the stock were there when he bought the rifle. I'm hoping that someday I'll find someone that can explain them.

quote:

Originally posted by buckstix:


I too prefer a splinter forend, but the lack of that feature wouldn't stop me from buying a nice vintage double.

I'm not an expert on vintage doubles. That distinction would obviously fall to Cal. But I would ask the question, were beavertail forends EVER a feature on VINTAGE doubles?

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

I'm not an expert on vintage doubles. That distinction would obviously fall to Cal. But I would ask the question, were beavertail forends EVER a feature on VINTAGE doubles?

Hello Todd Williams,

Thanks for the reply.

I've searched the internet to try to answer your question. I found a few beavertail forends on Vintage Double Barrel Shotguns, but none on Vintage Double Rifles.

Well, I finally got out to the range to test this wonderful rifle. As you may be aware, I subscribe to the 75% rule for regulating my rifles. That is 75% velocity of the regulation load using the same bullet weight. Since the regulation load for this rifle is 2200 fps with a 480g bullet, 75% velocity would be about 1650 fps with the same bullet. I didn't have any 480g bullets, but was able to acquire some 500g Hawk bullets in .482 dia. Here is the very first target I shot with this load. You should have seen my smile - no buyer's remorse for this one.




.
.

I shot 20 shots with varying amounts of 3031; 70g, 75g, 80g, and 83.5g which was the full load as recommended by the former owner. I shot 10 pairs total and groups ranged from 5/8" to 4-11/16". On this next target, I shot a pair of full loads on the same target as the 75% loads. As you can see, there was not a lot of difference in regulation from the 75% load to the full 100% load. And the 75% practice load is a lot more fun to shoot, being only 40.9 ft/lbs of recoil, instead of 70.2 ft/lbs. Tomorrow I will shoot it again, with some AR5744 loads.

.
.




.
.

Perhaps of interest to the forum members is the way I cool my rifle between shooting strings. I built myself a cooling tube. This improvised device really cuts down on the waiting time between shots strings. I shoot 4 rounds (2 pair) and insert the barrel into the cooling tube. This rig cools the barrels down to ambient temperature in about 3 - 5 minutes; about the time it takes me to step through the chronograph readings, record the shots in my notebook, and walk the 50 yards down-range to measure the holes in the target. This devise was made up using a 110 volt 2-speed fan, attached to various rubber and plastic plumbing adapters, and then attaching them to a 28" long piece of 4" diameter flexible plastic drainage tube. (rubber and plastic for obvious reasons) Total cost was about $35 including the 110 volt fan. Lucky we have power at our range, otherwise I would have made one to run off my 12 volt car battery.

That’s a very cool rig buckstix thanks for posting the cooling tube.

Hello Double BC

Thanks for the reply.

" ... a very "cool" rig ... " ? ? ? ?

Yes, this works especially well when I'm shooting two rifles. While shooting one, the other one cools. This makes for non-stop fun at the range.

That is a smart invention,I wonder if a small leaf blower would work as well?

Hello Bill73

Thanks for the reply.

I looked at some leaf blowers but their tubes were too small in diameter to handle my 700NE. By the time I modified everything it would have cost me more. However, they might work for small caliber rifles. An additional drawback to using a leaf blowers is that they are extremely noisy.

Buckstix,

Nice idea!

Your rifle looks like a keeper!

My answer to cooling barrels is much more primitive.

We have an enclosed shooting house at our range that has AC and heat and we shoot out of sliding windows.

When I need to cool the barrels on my doubles I take them off the action and hold them up to the AC unit letting the cool air flow through the barrels, works great!

quote:

Originally posted by 470Evans:
Buckstix,

Nice idea!

Your rifle looks like a keeper!

My answer to cooling barrels is much more primitive.

We have an enclosed shooting house at our range that has AC and heat and we shoot out of sliding windows.

When I need to cool the barrels on my doubles I take them off the action and hold them up to the AC unit letting the cool air flow through the barrels, works great!

I would be a little scared of running cold air through the barrels of a double rifle,too rapid a cool down? Might be bad for some guns,I might have learned this the hard way

It will have shot something like this? The crown is, probably, that of a Duke.

quote:

Originally posted by 470Evans:
We have an enclosed shooting house at our range that has AC and heat and we shoot out of sliding windows.

When I need to cool the barrels on my doubles I take them off the action and hold them up to the AC unit letting the cool air flow through the barrels, works great!

Hello 470Evans,

Thanks for the reply.

Unfortunately, our outdoor range doesn't have air conditioning.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill73:
I would be a little scared of running cold air through the barrels of a double rifle,too rapid a cool down? Might be bad for some guns,I might have learned this the hard way

Hello Bill73

Thanks for the reply

You might be right about cooling too rapidly.

quote:

Originally posted by enfieldspares:
" .... The crown is, probably, that of a Duke.

Hello enfieldspares,

Thanks for the reply.

Yes, but which Duke?

The correct name for the symbols, the diamonds, are "lozenge" or a "fusil". Search ten lozenge or ten fusil with the word heraldry or coat of arms or shield and, maybe, duke or duc?

The most notable European one might by those of the Monaco lot! Prince Rainier of Grace Kelly fame. One of their titles are Duke of Valentinois. But the number of diamonds is wrong.

But the crown seems wrong as it appears to be a Duke's crown from your picture and there aren't enough diamonds on each row.

But any heraldry book of coats of arms it'll be easy to find as it is it's a strong, simple design.

Here's how the crown or coronet with five leaf showing is used in various countries...so in some it's maybe a Marquis!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coronet

Seek coat of arms TEN lozenge conjoined or ten lozengy or TEN fusils conjoined or ten fusily. It finds this:

ie_heer_Croisiles.svg" target="_blank">https://commons.wikimedia.org/...e_heer_Croisiles.svg

Or this:

ie_heer_van_Lalaing.svg" target="_blank">https://heraldik-wiki.de/wiki/...heer_van_Lalaing.svg

Or this...problem! There's no colours on your engraved shield! So it could be either of the two?

ie_heer_van_Craule.svg" target="_blank">https://heraldik-wiki.de/wiki/..._heer_van_Craule.svg

Or if a badly interpreted engraving the one above or the one below.

ie_heer_van_Lalaing.svg" target="_blank">https://heraldik-wiki.de/wiki/...heer_van_Lalaing.svg

Hello enfieldspares,

Thanks for the reply.

Not sure what you're trying to show - those links don't work.

Yes. I tried them myslef after your post. The topmost one works. That'll help you identify the crown.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coronet

There are not that many Dukes (or Duc in France) in Europe so it will be difficult but not impossible.

I'd reckon its British, French or Belgian Duke (or Duc) as they had colonies in Africa.

Hello enfieldspares,

Thanks for your reply.


After closely examining the subtle details of the 275 various coronets on this site, it appears that the one for the English "Duke" is the closest match.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_(heraldry)

Perhaps someday I can determine which one he is.

Having the advantage of speaking French, I looked at a few web sites. Verney-Carron did not make double rifles in African calibers, or even high grade S X S shotguns, "in-house" as far as I can determine. In fact, they didn't make S X S express rifles "in-house" until they bought Paul Demas' shop a few years ago (bought in 2004, using the Verney-Carron name since 2008) and started putting the Verney-Carron brand on the rifles from that shop. This one is definitely a Belgian made rifle, made for Verney-Carron, which in those years also had commercial headquarters in Lyon. I cannot determine if the action is Belgian, but Auguste Lebeau also made guns for Verney-Carron so it is plausible that this rifle is entirley Belgian. Falla also made the barrels for the S X S shotguns for some time.

The vast majority of double rifles made in Europe are in 8X57 JRS or 9.3X74, whether side-by-side or over and under. Demas doubles in African calibers were most certainly made in very limited numbers.

But back to this particular rifle, let's be wildly optimistic: you have an Auguste Lebeau double rifle, with tubes from Falla, made for Verney Carron in the 1920s. I have no way of authenticating this, it might not be true, but it's not impossible. And legends are made from less.

Hello Wink,

Thanks for the reply.

Its always interesting to puzzle together the History of a rifle that was built 90 years ago.

There are several small stampings on the bottom of the barrels. Would any of these possibly identify Auguste Lebeau or Paul Demas?