Two Questions

Please VOTE! I offer for consideration this thought: The 375 H&H Belted Mag

is the "yard stick" caliber for comparison when speaking of "over all" hunting

in AFRICA. BUT, I believe that the combination of RELATIVELY low cost - good

quality factory ammo, that is WIDELY distributed, is THE MOST IMORTANT collective

factor in the .375 H&H Belted Mag holding the dominant position that is has,

given that it IS of adaquite power for most shooting most of the time. If

the same were true of the .416 Taylor or any similarly powerful round then IT

would be the dominant caliber.

Question:
Do you agree?

Choices:
Yes
No

Question:
If the ammo for the 450/400 [either length] or the 375 Flanged Mag

double rifles enjoyed the distribution, pricing and sound quality of the

30-06 caliber, would HEYM, SEARCY, CHAPUIS, etc. [not the U.K.

makers as their boxlocks basically start at twenty thousand British
pounds] ever be able to build enough rifles to keep up with the demand?

Choices:
Yes
No

 

Just an observation but I think 416 Taylor
is not that good example in the first question.

But I do think ammo availability is a big issue.

375 Flanged Magnum in the Second example is a good one with 450/400 already catered for.

Just my HO.


Voted NO to Q1
Voted YES to Q2

Voted no, on the first question. The 416 needs a bigger bottle than the Taylor offers.

Voted yes, on the second question, the rifle makers will be able to keep up with demand. Cheap ammo (30-06 like $$) is one thing, 5-15K rifles is another.

Now if there were decent DRs in the 1-3K price range, along with good cheap factory ammo, that would be a different story.


Keith

IMO, the post by Hogkiller is right on target!

I will add one thing here. If there was a clean supply of 375 H&H flanged mag cases, and quality factory loaded ammo. The double rifles chambered for that round would sell faster than the off the shelf double rifles could be made, and with American riflemen, it would far outsell all other chamberings!

The 450/400, both lengths, 15 yrs ago, went for thousands less than a same shape double chambered for any of the 450s, or 475s. I predict of the new rifles,if they are made in the 10 lb weight, there will be a long waiting list for one of the new 450/400NE 3" double rifles, and the prices of the older ones has already jumped up considerably, if you can find one worth buying. This is simply beacuse of the sudden availability of factory ammo!

If Federal hadn't decided to produce 416 Rigby ammo, then I doubt Norma would have decided to do it. Hornady is even producing it. Now the 416 Rigby is one of the common chamberings coming from Ruger and CZ and more rifles have been made in 416 Rigby in the last ten years than in the preceeding 80 years. Yes, ammo availability has a whole lot to do with it.

I'm with Hog Killer.

I just don't think that cheap widely available factory ammo is that big a deal with most people who spend the bucks a double rifle cost.

I do think it would have some impact though, especially for new to double rifles buyers.

As it is, ammo for any common cartridge isn't hard to come by with a little forethought. Yea, the chance of getting 450/400 or whatever at the local sports store is nil, but so what. You can order it or most any other cartridge by the truck load prior to your need.

And, as the owner of a 458wm double rifle, I can tell you that having ammo available at the local sports store means nothing if the ammo wasn't what the rifle was regulated with.

Interestingly, I's be happy and relieved to shoot, say, Federal 458wm ammo out of my double at elephants in Africa if I lost or ran out of mine because the ammo shoots well enough for the purpose. But it doesn't shoot well enough when you are trying to poke nice neat close holes in a target at home. Then its just annoying.

JPK

15K for a rifle ... one woudl have to shoot ALOT of ammo to "make up" for that.....


ammo cost isn't the issue, threshold price of the gun is.

I voted “NO†on question #1
The availability of ammo isn’t the main reason for the 375H&H’s continued popularity. I feel it is the largest caliber most regular hunters, (not the big bore fans on hear and elsware), can easily hunt with. The 375 rifles are generally lighter and kick less than the 416s
I voted “YES†to the second question.
The problem isn’t the cheap ammo but $10,000 dollar cost for a good DGR. Till some one builds that 375 flanged 450/400,450#2 ect for $5000 or less they are building all that they need to keep up. When demand increases I can guarantee they will increase production to match demand. The problem is they are selling that rifle that cost $3000-$5000 for $10,000-15,000 or more so why lower their price.
I have to agree with Hog Killer,MacD37.
JPK what load was your 458 regulated with?
Bill

quote:

JPK what load was your 458 regulated with?

Bill,

I'll be damned if I know. It is a Thys and others have expressed the opinion that it was probably regulated with Browning branded ammo, which was apparently readily available and popular in Europe at the time my rifle was made - early '80s. Also, Browning ammo was suposedly loaded hotter than contemporary US ammo.

I do know that my rifle shoots to regulation very well with 500gr Woodleigh solids at 2135fps chrono'd ten feet from the muzzles. My load uses AA 2230.

Interestingly, the Federal ammo is slower than my loads, running ~2100fps iirc, but crosses at about 20yds. Not too bad for elephants in a pinch.

A better load with regard to penetration and performance on elephant is the 450gr North Fork flat nose solid, which runs 2190fps from my rifle and shoots extremely accurately. I use H 4895 for the 450 North Forks.

I've had my loads pressure tested and they are middlin' loads.

JPK

f
Would the .416 Taylor be as popular?

No. Nor for that matter would the 700NE be just as possible. I think there is much more to a cartridge than just cost. Look at the 30-06 vs. the 35 Whelen. Let's be real here and admit that aside from bullet cost the two rounds cost basically the same. A 250gr. bullet may cost a tad more than a 180gr. bullet but aside from that brass, powder, and primer are the same. Maybe a dime difference between rounds? $2.00 a box? So why isn't the 35 Whelen more popular if "bigger is better at the same cost"?

One aspect of the .375 H&H is recoil, and I have to say it's a big concern. Quite frankly, most people I know don't even have the capability to handle a .35 Whelen or my .350 RMag to any great extent. 250gr. at 2500fps is very, very close to 9.3x74 power when one measures FPE at the muzzle.

Back to the .375 H&H - I think there is a reality that some people want to hunt Africa and dangerous game but simply cannot handle anything bigger with any form accuracy. Heck, I personally would rather have a .375 or 9.3 that I can shoot accurately than a 700NE that I might flinch away...

(On the other hand I really, really do want to pull the trigger on a 700 NE at least once in my lifetime!)

So, no. There's more to a round than cost.

***********************
If the ammo is cheap, would enough DR's be made to satisfy demand?

Yes, demand could be satisfied. I don't exactly see Spartan coach guns or Mossberg o/u's flying off the shelves. They are made to a reduced price-point for a reason and yet they don't grab the attention.

DR's are an uncommon gun for uncommon man. Bolt guns have one barrel and are quite easy to sight in and manage. No regulation issues...no issues extensive sight-in issues. Bolt guns are easy and many people just don't have much inkling to do but the least amount of work necessary for hunting purposes.

Or they want the simplicity of having a single barrel. Or the consistent accuracy. Single barrel makes it so much easier to get tight groups...

DR's are a labor of love. I'm convinced of this more and more. The cost simply makes sure that only people who want that labor of love can afford them. If the Marlin 336 in 30-30 had the prestige and honor of a classic DR then the 336's would be worth $20k. They aren't.

DR's have their own set of issues that most people just don't really want to deal with.

IMO, the DR issue is also a mute point: Ruger #1's don't exactly fly off the shelves either...and they are halfway there!

Let's not confuse our own passions to be representative of market demand in general.

Just one man's opinion.

I THINK BIG FIVE JACK does have a point here.

The 375 has it ALL.
It is available in a very wide variety of rifles.
The ammo is found most anyplace BIG big game is hunted.

The ammo is not too expensive, compared to some other BIG big Game calibres.

Because of all of the above it has been widely used, and widely written about.

The same factors, on a much lessor scale, is why the 470 Nitro is the most popular double rifle calibre.

Think about it.....

I quote myself,

"If the same were true of the .416 Taylor or any similarly powerful

round then IT would be the dominant caliber."

To further explain my thought, if the brass was used at the 2.5"

length [.338 win mag] and the bullet loaded was the .366 diameter,

286 grainer at the same speed more or less as the .375 H&H belted,

and this combination enjoyed the ammo availibility/price the 375 H&H

has all these decades I expect IT would be what the .375 H&H is today.

Like wise if some one had made popular a .388 diameter bullet at 320

grains or so, fired from what we know as .416 Dakota brass, IT would

be the dominant round "out there". I am just proposing that the .375

H&H is not magically perfect. It IS very good for many shooters from

a recoil stand point and ammo availability stand point. But a similar

round with equally available/priced ammo would be just as popular.

Regarding the question about the double rifles, and the makers being able

to keep up with demand; It was "half retorical". They really do demand a

lot of money [for most] to get into one! I am just saying again, that if all

the new ones were built to use a load that is really, really close to the

original Kynoch [I guess] load, and it was as findable as .375 H&H belted

is right now, and it only cost what average 30-06 ammo cost right now,

I do believe the sales of such rifles would grow by a very visible figure.

quote:

Originally posted by BigFiveJack:

I do believe the sales of such rifles would grow by a very visible figure.

Agreed, sales would grow. I just don't think the numbers would be astronomical and be a "supply exceeds demand" situation.

To many "ifs" If my Aunt had balls she would be my Uncle!

On the doubles aval. helps but 15K to 20K doubles hinders more than 200 dollar a box ammo.

Ed

quote:

Originally posted by rnovi:
f
Would the .416 Taylor be as popular?

No. Nor for that matter would the 700NE be just as possible. I think there is much more to a cartridge than just cost. Look at the 30-06 vs. the 35 Whelen. Let's be real here and admit that aside from bullet cost the two rounds cost basically the same. A 250gr. bullet may cost a tad more than a 180gr. bullet but aside from that brass, powder, and primer are the same. Maybe a dime difference between rounds? $2.00 a box? So why isn't the 35 Whelen more popular if "bigger is better at the same cost"?

The cost of componants is not what makes the 35 Whellen cost more than the 30-06! The fact that there's
is far less demand for the 35 Whelen is the reason. The line has to be shut down to make a run of the 35 Whelen, to make a run of ammo that may lay on the makers shelves for three times as long as that made for the 30-06. If there was a demand for the 35 that wae equal to that of the 30-06 they would cost the same.

quote:

One aspect of the .375 H&H is recoil, and I have to say it's a big concern. Quite frankly, most people I know don't even have the capability to handle a .35 Whelen or my .350 RMag to any great extent. 250gr. at 2500fps is very, very close to 9.3x74 power when one measures FPE at the muzzle.

Again the 35 Whelen, or the 350 Rem Mag, will sell one tenth of the ammo for 9.3X74R. Maybe not in your area, but the ammo companies sell their ammo world wide, and the 9.3X74R "IS" the 30-06 of most other countries, as far as popularity goes, and even in the states, I doubt the 35 Whelen, or 350 Rem Mag, will sell well enough to justify it's own load line, instead of stopping the line for more common chamberings, to run a limited run of ammo, that will not sell fast enough to interfere with ammo loading that does! Take the Federal 470NE ammo that sells for $320 for a box of 20, Though it is the most popular double rifle, ammo with African hunters, still only means it will sell very slowly,because whan you consider the number of hunters who go to Africa for game that justifies the power of the 470NE double, only about i/10th of them will be shooting a 470NE, most will be shooting a 375H&H, and the rifles chambered for 9.3X74R will be used in every country in the world,for everything from Roe deer to Cape Buffalo, the ammo sells at a rate of 15 time that of the 470NE, hence some of the difference in price of ammo.

quote:

Back to the .375 H&H - I think there is a reality that some people want to hunt Africa and dangerous game but simply cannot handle anything bigger with any form accuracy. Heck, I personally would rather have a .375 or 9.3 that I can shoot accurately than a 700NE that I might flinch away...

(On the other hand I really, really do want to pull the trigger on a 700 NE at least once in my lifetime!)

So, no. There's more to a round than cost.

What you say about people being able to shoot the 375H&H,is very true, but I believe the person who is thinking about going to Africa for the first time, is usually a guy who considers a 375H&H to be a big bore rifle. What he as shot before is usually no bigger than a 300 win Mag, or a 338 Win Mag. He only discovers that he can shoot the 375 H&H well after a while useing it. If the same guy is dreaming about takeing on elephant, or Cape buffalo for the first time, and also wants a double rifle, is prone to go bigger than he should. You would not believe the number of 450, 475, and 500 doubles I've bought in new condition from guys who bought them and found thaey were in over their collective heads!

Bwsides the guy who WANTS to go to Africa, is not the first time guy that makes any ammo sell, because he has no idea what he needs for the job, only what he thinks he wants. That usually changes after he buys!

***********************

quote:

If the ammo is cheap, would enough DR's be made to satisfy demand?

Yes, demand could be satisfied. I don't exactly see Spartan coach guns or Mossberg o/u's flying off the shelves. They are made to a reduced price-point for a reason and yet they don't grab the attention.<<<snip>>>

Just one man's opinion.

The amount of double rifles may not increase at all, but what would change is the cahmberings they are ordered for, and if they were redily available, with a good supply of componants, and factory ammo, chambered for 375FL mag may would buy them, to use here in North America, knowing they will also be legal for Africa, if they get that chance. In the states, I rarely use anything other than a bolt rifle chambered for 375 H&H, or a double chambered for 9.3X74R, and I own all the big stuff, and I'm thankfull for the availability of 375H&H componants, and wish there was as good supply of 9.3X74R componants as well.
Just another man's opinion!

BigFiveJack,
I think the 375H&H is popular for the stated reason. I feel it is the largest caliber most regular hunters, can easily hunt with. There fore the 375 rifles create a demand for ammo in all the places it is used not the other way around. The availability of ammo isn’t the main reason for the popularity of a given caliber.
The real problem with building a double rifle in a given caliber is there has to be a demand for the rifle before some one loads ammo for it. This can be the big catch 22 that is hard to overcome. The real problem for some cartridges is there is not enough demand for the brass and components to justify making it. Such as the 375 flanged. Look what has happened with the 450/400, not to long ago it was a obsolete round and ammo and components were hard to find. Now that demand has increased availability has increased. The same can be said for the 450 #2.
JPK,
Glad you found a load that worked for you. You are right having a boxcar of ammo doesn’t do you any good if it doesn’t shoot in your rifle.
Bill