quote:

quote:
As several of us suspected the method of "regulation" yaws the bullet and prevents it from fully stabilizing which in turn will affect penetration, especially with solids, as the tests on Paul's rifle have borne out. Anyone who has ever done any benchrest shooting or long-range varmint hunting understands the importance of proper crowning to bullet stability, might be okay on paper but not something I would care to hunt DG with.



Canerat, this is the issue with the rifles and that sums up very well what the main problem would or could be. Most of all with the various solids used. In the case of the CEB BBW#13 and some few others, the meplat size and nose profile, these solids are capable of self stabilization during terminal penetration. Some lesser solids are not able to self stabilize. If the rifle is not capable of regulation with a solid such as the CEB BBW#13 then there is even more of an issue. On this particular rifle we see that the BBW#13s did self stabilize in the left barrel giving more than adequate straight line penetration, and where the Hornady DGS was not able to do the same, 2 out of 3 shots. The problem is, this rifle won't regulate with anything but the Hornady bullets. We also see that in the right barrel the Hornady DGS performed far better than I expected it to be capable of.

So in this particular rifle we see the left barrel has the issue, while the right does very well in stabilization. If one were hunting buffalo, right barrel would have the expanding, left the solid (As I understand you boys operate these things-Right first-Left Second). For second shots on buffalo, I would think the hornady would suffice, even with it's stability issue, it will perform better on tissue than in the test medium. If elephant, then both barrels would be stuffed with solids, right being first and able to stabilize reasonable, and the left would be quick follow up--just load quickly, and shoot some more fast as you can! HEH....... So if nothing else done with this rifle, one could compromise and work with it, knowing what it's limitations are.



quote:
Many people consider a double rifle a short range rifle but there are exceptions to that rule and sometimes longer shots must be taken.


Snowwolfe

There are always exceptions to the rules, no doubt, and for sure that would be an incredible shot. But as you say, it is an exception, and while a bull moose can and has been many times an exceptionally dangerous critter, it is also not the normal cape buffalo, lion or elephant, bear that we would bring to mind with DG. I dare say that you would not take a shot such as that on a lion, elephant or even buffalo. I know no one that would, unless of course the dance has already started and this is one of the follow up shots to stop an animal from escaping.

And 500N once again the above answers your statement as well, (2cd shots--lighter caliber and pigs) Same goes.


Damn near everything we do in choosing rifle, caliber, and bullets in shooting can and does become some sort of compromise, to facilitate a more important (to ourselves) goal. So regardless of our choices, there are compromises to be made. The chap who selects a Single Shot to hunt with is severely limited with 2cd shot capability. I have done this before myself. The chap who chooses a double can in many cases be limited to the selection of bullets he might be able to use as well. One can justify this by demanding that very fast second follow up shot, or because of nostalgia or any number of reasons, but none the less still a compromise. The chap who chooses a bolt gun also has some limitations, while a fast second shot is possible on DG, not as fast as a double, but a 3rd is faster than the double? So there are compromises made on all of the choices we make.

DG is near a sin to shoot past 50 yds--I have in the past committed these sins, but always strive to be close, or else what is the point? I consider 50 yds a long distance on DG, and would much much prefer to be inside that 25 yd mark, and for the most part in my DG career have been there. I have a rule of thumb, for myself only--Start inside 25 yds I have you 100% in control--50 yds that percentage starts to drop to 75% of having the scenario under control--75 yds drops to 50% control, and 100 yds is out of control! Give me 25 yds and inside every time if at all possible. This should be Double Rifle territory, and 50 yds getting on the outside--ESPECIALLY if you limit yourself to iron sights as most of you do! With irons that Control Range starts to drop drastically! Or it for sure would for me!

Now let's look at these 50 yd results, on paper. Here you will see groups fired with the left and right barrels at 50 yds, Hornady DGS and DGX with both scope and iron sights. The target with irons has a couple of CEB BBW#13s, right and left also.

First two targets are with the scope in place.






Not bad for the Hornady Factory ammo. The CEB BBW#13s are around 4-6 inches apart right and left at 50 yds with loads in the same or better velocity range. So at 50 yds a compromise has to be made--Hornady Factory ammo.

Here is a target shot at 50 yds with Iron Sights. Not much difference in right and left. This showing the rifle has little regulation issues with a scope attached, or not. Which is a good thing in my opinion.




Now, what did I just say about the ranges for Dangerous Game???? I don't give a damn if I am shooting a very accurate bolt action with a low power scope---Which I do and have done for my entire DG career, 99% of the time, 25 yds and inside is where I want to be!!!! That's where I have the most control of any situation.

So the Sabatti here at 25 yds, this is where the compromise is mostly in RANGE--



Here at 25 yds, the CEB BBW#13s do pretty well for their intended purposes. Let's assume that one would choose to hunt elephant with this very same Sabatti 450/400. Let's assume that one wishes to have the very best bullet performance that one can have for such an adventure, my opinion, .409 400 gr CEB BBW#13 Solid. Well, we know for a fact in this gun the CEBs are 4-6 inches apart right and left with this bullet at 50 yds--but 25 and less that gap narrows to an inch or so. Well normally one does not start the dance at 50 yds with elephant, but if you do, and I have, then you don't be stupid and do brain shots, you take heart shots--the heart on an elephant is a lot bigger than 6 inches, and I doubt that you will get a six inch spread at 50 yds during the heat of battle! Let's scenario up and say we are inside 25 yds now! Not much of a compromise at 25 yds and in, where most reasonable elephant hunting should be anyway.

Don't get me wrong here, I am not defending, nor being offensive to the Sabatti or any other double for that matter. I may just be looking at things in a different light, or in multiple layers and options. Ya'll know me or should by now, I am not a double type of chap, and won't ever be. So really don't have a dog in this fight, nor really care one way or the other. What I do care about are you guys that choose the doubles, and just would like for everyone to see all the options, and not get hung up on any one thing and make decisions based on one thing or option only.

Of course these are opinions, and mine is worth what you paid for it! LOL

Michael

quote:

You guys are the best.

Thanks for doing the "heavy lifting" for me and being open and objective with the results.

Stay well and thanks again,

Paul

quote:

Originally posted by MACD:
Referencing my earlier post about finding that my Sab .45-70 had been muzzle ground, someone commented that Cabelas may have asked Sabatti to build these rifles to a certain pricepoint.

This may be true. I have no way of knowing. However, the Deluxe model .45-70 cost $4000 with extractors. If I had gotten ejectors in the same gun it would have been $4500. This puts the rifle at about the same cost as the Chapuis UGEX in 9.3x74R.

I haven't actually seen a UGEX, but my impression from many posted pics is that it is pretty much an apples to apples comparison to the Deluxe grade Sabatti (excepting the ground muzzles!).

Is that a fair statement? I know several people have mentioned that they own both rifles.

So, getting to the pricepoint thing, I guess my problem is that I can't understand why Chapuis can build a rifle that is properly regulated and sell it for roughly the same bucks as a similarly appointed Sab that isn't well regulated. ??? As I said, I'll keep the rifle and use it, but I feel as if I paid for something I didn't get. Sorta like buying a new car and then finding out that it had been wrecked and fixed at the dealers lot. That actually happened to a friend!

quote:

Originally posted by Snowwolfe:
I disagree that a double is only for close in work on dangerous game.
Use mine for moose, black bear, and grizzly. To date, have never shot an animal with my Chapuis under 75 yards away and the longest shot was just under 300. The long shot is not recommended but I would have zero reservation about shooting any deer sized animal or larger up to 200 yards away with the factory iron sights on my Chapuis.

To many people read the same articles about doubles being only good for short range close in work. Most of the owners of the smaller caliber doubles would agree they are more useful rifles than non double owners give them credit for.

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I been finding out the more I practice the luckier I get.

quote:

Lilguy,

If I found a Sabatti that did not have its crowns ground to regulate and it had a test target that demonstrated good regulation I would be happy to have it. As I've said in all of my posts, i was very happy with the feel, fit and finish as well as the build quality. In fact the ground muzzle did not bother me except that it wouldnt regulate well with even factory ammo AND tests of both factory as well as all handloads with any bullet demonstrated bullet tumbling from the barrel that had been ground.

I'm not put off Sabattis, just those regulated by grinding the rifling. Before the tests, I wasn't certain that it woudl affect bullet stability. That's the value of testing and having data - it doesn't matter what you believe, the facts are the facts.

Here is the other thread on the subject:

My Sabatti experience

The above link is to page 3 but if you read all the way through it as well as links to the testing done by Michael458, you will see that I have been and still am pleased with all other aspects of that particular Sabatti 450/400.

buford848 - with you 100%. I wouldn't take that particular Merkel to Africa either. And if you do a search of Merkel, plenty of people felt the same way abou these "inexpensive" doubles when they first became popular on AR. Some of the criticism was valid some was not - just as with Sabattis.

If the gun makes you happy, who cares what anyone else has to say. As in any situation, you're the only one who counts. If it were me, the Sabatti with a good test target and no muzzle grinding would win out over the Merkel.

Good luck!

quote:

Originally posted by Lilguy:
I am new to the world of doubles and have been reading with great interest the debate over the Sabbatti line.
My question for those in the know is this. The Cabelas close to me has a Sabbatti 470 NE with
factory finished rifling, no grinding at all. Would this mean it shot to spec without the need to alter the muzzle? This gun is retailing for 5999.00. The Gun library also has a Merkel 140A 470 NE, preloved and pristine for 8999.00. I would appreciate all input on this choice. This is an area of the shooting sports that I have never come in contact with in over 40 years. Have never seen a double at any of the clubs I belong to and will have to travel some to shot it. Many Thanks

quote:

Originally posted by Lilguy:
Thank you gentlemen.

When I started looking I had in my mind to stay as far under 9 thousand as possible. Then I heard about Cabelas exclusive on Sabattis and began following the discussions here and elsewhere.
If a properly regulated gun will put Hornady
Rds on target, the price is great.
What else will 9k get me? Are there sites dedicated to marketing double guns besides Gunbroker? No one around me offers Hornady 470 NE and Cabelas is selling Federal for 275.00/20 count.Any suggestion on a outlet for ammmo on these NE rounds?

Appreciate all your help.

quote:

Originally posted by Lilguy:
Thank you gentlemen.

When I started looking I had in my mind to stay as far under 9 thousand as possible. Then I heard about Cabelas exclusive on Sabattis and began following the discussions here and elsewhere.
If a properly regulated gun will put Hornady
Rds on target, the price is great.
What else will 9k get me? Are there sites dedicated to marketing double guns besides Gunbroker? No one around me offers Hornady 470 NE and Cabelas is selling Federal for 275.00/20 count.Any suggestion on a outlet for ammmo on these NE rounds?

Appreciate all your help.

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
lilguy

470's are easy. IF YOU GET A GOOD GUN, I reckon you could get it nearly regulated in 10 - 20 shots and then fine tune from there.

By good gun, I mean Merkel, Chapuis, Searcy etc.

The above Doesn't apply to Sabatti !!!

.

quote:

Originally posted by Lilguy:
I have been reloading for decades but I am concerned about how you deal with how a gun
was regulated. Not sure my shoulder could handle
many NE rounds trying to work up an accurate load.

Would you please amplify on your reloading thought. Thanks

quote:

Originally posted by Cane Rat:

quote:

Originally posted by Lilguy:
I have been reloading for decades but I am concerned about how you deal with how a gun
was regulated. Not sure my shoulder could handle
many NE rounds trying to work up an accurate load.

Would you please amplify on your reloading thought. Thanks

Sorry, I responded to 500N's post above and not yours. PM me if you would like more info and I will be happy to give you all the help I can. The big NE rounds are easy to load for and there is tons of info in this forum on how to get loads to regulate in a double. It is actually a quite simple process. Graeme Wright's book "Shooting the British Double Rifle" is a great resource for the handloader, by no means is it necessary but I do highly recommend it. If you are interested in the book PM Cal Pappas on here as he may have a few copies left.

Mike's suggestions are good ones, especially the recoil pad on the Sabatti. My .470 is 9 lbs 13oz which is fine for me but he is right that many folks prefer them in the 10 1/2 lb range. I know from personal experience that a .500 weighing less than about 11 lbs is too light, less than that and they will whack you good and about knock your teeth loose. IMO, I find the .470 to be an easy shooting rifle but the .500 has enough additional recoil to me to be objectionable but again that was in a 10lb double. Just my $.02.