I dont know if this is the correct term (reinforce breeches with stepped down and contoured barrels), but I have seen a few doubles with these. I had a chance to buy a Coggie 450 No2 with this type of barrel, and now wished I would have.

Why did they do this(for strength), and who all used this barrel config. for there guns

Thanks,

Ed

quote:

Originally posted by 505ED:
I dont know if this is the correct term

The term is "Side Clips".

quote:

Why did they do this(for strength),

To reinforce the action and stop barrels from any side movements during discharge.

edit: misunderstood the question, sorry.

JP577,

No they are not side clips, I know what side clips are these are the breeches of the barrel, they are large and straight, and then step down into a barrel contour. Sorry I cant explain it better, I'll try to find a photo online.

Ed

Ed:

I know what you're referring to, and don't know the correct name for them either.

Yeah, I've seen several Coggies like that. However, with double rifles, the oddity seems more common with the Scots. I remember double rifles from both Fraser and MacNaughton, one of the latter being a .600. I've never seen a British shotgun with that contour of barrel, but several continental makers used it - Pieper and Manufrance come to mind.

In some cases it may have been due to a different barrel-making process similar to monobloc, as it was with Pieper. Sure not very attractive. I have no idea what the Brits called it. On the continent, I've heard them referred to as "fretted" barrels.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

I think I may be able to shed some light on this subject. I think what you are seeing is actually a copy of the first patented mono- block. I for the life of me can't recall the guy's name but he took out a patent on the first mono- block system that actually included the loop back in the 1800s.There is an article on him in an issue of The Double Gun Journal. He was born in Austria ,moved to Belgium was mainly known for his excellence in manufacturing damascus barrels but was also an enlightened mass production oriented engineer type. He took out 2 patents in 1825 if I remember correctly, one was an English patent and the other American. Basically this is the forrunner to the Beretta and other systems such as Searcy etc whereby the the breech and lumps and ,in his patents case ,the loop are a single forging and the barrels are sleeved into it.I have also seen this system in a few W.J. Jeffery's.At the time he first produced this system, the steel forging was sleeved with Damascus barrels and were in the hammer gun era. After his patent ran out it was copied by the likes of Beretta etal.Most people erroniously think this was an original invention by Beretta. I owned one of his guns in a Cape gun with 43 mauser and 16 ga. tubes.Should have kept if for no other reason I remember the name.

Pooh on me, I should read more attentively.It is as 400 Nitro said a "Pieper". Which, as the officianado on DBL Gun Journal says, is actually pronounced "Peeper".Apparently one of his first prototypes was feature in the Paris Exibition of 18 sumthin which coincided with his initial production year. Its a sign of the times , can you picture a sporting gun being featured in a world's fair today.I think the reinforced look stems from the design of the forging and the "stepdown" is the shoulder between the mono-block and the barrel.

I'd appreciate it very much if anyone can post an illustration of what you're talking about.

Mark,

Your the man, thanks for the explaination. I have seen a few guns built like this from time to time. I like the unique look of them. Not the most attractive but unique.

JP577,

I found one.

http://www.amoskeagauction.com/64/enlarged/150R.jpg

...another MacNaughton to boot. The .600 I mentioned was also in an auction, quite a few years ago now.

Saw a Coggie more recently, in .450/.400. It weighed close on 13 lbs!
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Phill:

I was doing well to pull Pieper out of my hat without looking him up. You're right, I'm pretty sure he was the original patentee.

quote:

Originally posted by phill pittman:
I think the reinforced look stems from the design of the forging and the "stepdown" is the shoulder between the mono-block and the barrel.

On the Pieper guns it definitely is. That may also be true of the "stepped barrel" British DRs too. I don't know. Next time I have one of these in front of me, I'll check to see if it's really monobloc construction. I've handled a few, but have never paid particular attention to that point.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Silly me; I thought we were going to discuss the development of Levi jeans.

That is NOT a pretty rifle!!!

quote:

Originally posted by phill pittman:
I think I may be able to shed some light on this subject. I think what you are seeing is actually a copy of the first patented mono- block. I for the life of me can't recall the guy's name but he took out a patent on the first mono- block system that actually included the loop back in the 1800s.There is an article on him in an issue of The Double Gun Journal. He was born in Austria ,moved to Belgium was mainly known for his excellence in manufacturing damascus barrels but was also an enlightened mass production oriented engineer type. He took out 2 patents in 1825 if I remember correctly, one was an English patent and the other American. Basically this is the forrunner to the Beretta and other systems such as Searcy etc whereby the the breech and lumps and ,in his patents case ,the loop are a single forging and the barrels are sleeved into it.I have also seen this system in a few W.J. Jeffery's.At the time he first produced this system, the steel forging was sleeved with Damascus barrels and were in the hammer gun era. After his patent ran out it was copied by the likes of Beretta etal.Most people erroniously think this was an original invention by Beretta. I owned one of his guns in a Cape gun with 43 mauser and 16 ga. tubes.Should have kept if for no other reason I remember the name.

The mono-block system is older than most think, and has some things to reccomend it, for double rifles. The so-called common conception about Beretta being the origenator of this system is not totally incorrect! The Mono-block it's self was patened by Pieper, but the method of attacthment of the barrels in that mono-block,used by Beretta, was their's! The barrels in the Beretta are turned to the same diameter as the holes thrugh the mono-block! The barrel's mateing surface is tinned, as is the inside of the of the holes in the mono-block. Then barrels is frozen to 300 degs below 0, while the mono-block is heated to just under melting point of the tinning. The freezing shrinks the barrel shank, while the heating expand the mono-block. Then the mateing surfaces are coated with flux,barrels are slipped into the mono-block, and allowed to return to ambient temprature. This makes it almost imposible to remove the barrels from the mono-block, but the process is completed by heated rods placed in the rough chambers and the mono-block heated over a flame, to melt the tinning on both the barrels, and the mono-block, locking these pieces together as solidly, as threads! Then the chambers are finished.

The shotguns are simply shrunk, and expanded so the barrels can be slipped in, and returned to ambient temprature, without tinning. The barrel shank and the inter surface of the mono-block are left with just enough tooling marks, so when the unit returns to ambient temprature they cannot be pulled apart! The shotguns not needing to stand near the pressures the rifle does!

Tiggertate, great minds think alike! I too was wondering why we were discussing "Depends" on this forum. I was fully expecting the moderator to delete or at least move the offending thread.
Peter.

Me too!! I just reinforced my breeches last week, sewed a patch on the seat and both knees. Good to go for another six months or so.

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
Tiggertate, great minds think alike! I too was wondering why we were discussing "Depends" on this forum. I was fully expecting the moderator to delete or at least move the offending thread.
Peter.

Are you refering to a "sleeved" or monoblock or are you talking about the swag (jowels) on the action?

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Are you refering to a "sleeved" or monoblock or are you talking about the swag (jowels) on the action?

Monobloc and sleeve are essentially the same thing, monobloc being a method of construction and sleeving being a method of repair. Has to do with the barrels, not the action.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

The mono-block system is older than most think, and has some things to reccomend it, for double rifles. The so-called common conception about Beretta being the origenator of this system is not totally incorrect!

Isn't it merely a smaller version of the auto frettage system used on many naval guns from the "dreadnought" era onwards?

I've also seen this "stepped barrel" on 303 calibre double rifles. I suspect that it has nothing to do with strength, in actual fact, but to do with the base diameter of the cartridge.

In other words it makes a lighter gun to have a big breech sized to take the cartridges, but then to have an exaggerated monobloc type stepped barrel profile.

This saves unecessary metal which would be present if the barrels exhibited instead a gentle taper rather than a distinct step.

If you were to build up the area with modelling clay to cover the step and produce a gentle taper right down to the muzzles you could then work out the weight saved in steel by comparing the extra volume of material needed.

I always though the term "reinforced breech" referred to the "shoulders" you often see either side of the last inch or so of the action flat running up to the bottom of the fences.

I think the original idea was to reinforce the breech, and was used on brass cannon about 400 years ago. In those times, the outer ring was heated and the inner barrel was inserted, and they became one when the metal cooled and shrank. Tapered barrels came later.

I also suspect it is cheaper to mill a step in a barrel than to taper it. Look at all the military Mausers, Arisakas et. al. that have that feature.

i got two of them: my heutier


and the extra barrel set for my AH in 450/400 3.25" made by fraser

i just got the heutier home yesterday and it is not a monoblock, i think they made it to put more weight between the hands, to make it balance right.

best regards

peter

Maybe it's a way to build one big sized action, and be able to fit many different calibers to it.