I am considering a DR in 416 Rigby. My thinking is as follows: I do not reload and ammo is readily available. My aging eyes are struggling with open sights and I could put a scope on the 416. That caliber fits between the 9.3 & 470 that I have. My second option would be the .458 Win mag for basically the same reasons.

Opinions please. Thanks

Butch

I think most are going to recommend a flanged caliber. As would I but I don't know much and only have 3 doubles. If I were you I would go with the 450/400 3" as hornady offers this ammo at a good price....

Mac

quote:

Originally posted by BEGNO:
I am considering a DR in 416 Rigby. My thinking is as follows: I do not reload and ammo is readily available. My aging eyes are struggling with open sights and I could put a scope on the 416. That caliber fits between the 9.3 & 470 that I have. My second option would be the .458 Win mag for basically the same reasons.

Opinions please. Thanks

Butch

This is a big mistake in my opinion. Get a .500/416 if you want Rigby performance in a double gun.

While I have owned DRs in belted and rimless cartridges,I agree with the others stated views preferring flanged(rimmed).

The 450/400 is a great mid caliber, the 500/416 is a higher velocity/pressure round .

As to larger calibres ,though I chose a .450 and then a .500. The .470 is better supplied around the world in terms of ammunition.

surestrike,

Even though I own doubles, I am ignorant, so please help me understand. Why is a rimmed caliber acceptable and others not. Is it function and reliability, resale, both? It can't be the caliber, since 416s are very good at killing African DG.

Thanks

Complete function and reliabilty. Just more material for the extractor/ejector to grip onto the brass. No chance of them riding over the rim.

The purpose of the flange is for reliable extraction. There just isn't much on a rigby's rim to bite into and if a case was "sticky" there might be a big problem.

Get a 450/400 3", and scope it.

Hornady is making ammo for it now.

quote:

Originally posted by BEGNO:
surestrike,

Even though I own doubles, I am ignorant, so please help me understand. Why is a rimmed caliber acceptable and others not. Is it function and reliability, resale, both? It can't be the caliber, since 416s are very good at killing African DG.

Thanks

Extraction of fired cases is less certain with rimless designs. And such a failure would occur at the worst possible moment.

I own and use a 458wm double rifle. I have never encountered any extraction or ejection issues. But a 458wm double rifle can be rechambered to 450NE 3 1/4" with minimal trouble, so if the rifle had had issues, there was a plan to correct them.

This would not be the case with the 416 Rigby.

I would not build a double rifle planning on using a rimless cartridge. Especially with Hornaday coming out with so many rimmed rounds lately.

I also own a 375H&H double rifle, but have not yet shot it much, as it is still being "converted" to left hand.

JPK

BEGNO, get a 500/416. I have a Kreighoff in that caliber and I love the gun. I also have a 416 Rigby bolt gun! The ballistics are pretty much the same ie. 400 grain bullet at 2400 fps. and it is a rimmed cartridge. At the time I was thinking of getting a double in 416 Rigby as Merkel (I believe) had some "deals" going on in that caliber. I was advised to get the 500/416 and I have not regretted it. My K gun currently has a scope on it but the regulation loads are the same for scope on or off. You can get factory ammo as well. The Merkels were cheaper.
Peter.

I have always been a proponent for useing a rimless case in a double rifle if there was a reason for it. As JPK has stated I also have never had a problem with a rimmless case in my doubles but there are some pritty good reasons for having a .458 or .375 such as availability of ammo and components and ease of reloading (no filler required).
I don't think the Rigby case has any advantages. You will probably still need to use filler when reloading (not sure on that) The brass and ammo are expensive and some of you can help me out on this one .Isn't the 416 Rigby not only rimless but a little rebated as well?
I really like the idea of the 500/416. I've heard there can be some problems getting brass and ammo for it but I don't know I've had very limited expeiriance with any of the 416's.

Those advocating the use of rimless cartridges in today's double rifles are technically correct.

By way of history, cordite rounds, which came out in the 1890's, had significant problems. Cordite is very temperature-sensitive. Rifles/ammo which had functioned perfectly in ol' Blighty (England) had much increased pressure in the African heat. The result was cases sticking in the barrel---usually at the worst possible time!

The long double rifle cartridges may appear antiquated by today's standards. They were actually engineering marvels. The long tapered cases were meant to decrease pressure. The taper made extracting easier and much less likely to stick. This is most noticable in Jeffery rounds.

Of course, we do not use cordite today (a damned shame, as it smells so great!). Today's propellants are much less heat sensitive. Likewise, modern metals used in extractors/ejectors is harder and engineering tolerances are better.

I have no doubt that a modern rifle such as a Heym or Merkel can handle rimless cartridges quite nicely.

There are many of us however who love the old rounds. Obsolete? Maybe. I love 'em anyway!

quote:

Originally posted by JohnDL:
Those advocating the use of rimless cartridges in today's double rifles are technically correct.

By way of history, cordite rounds, which came out in the 1890's, had significant problems. Cordite is very temperature-sensitive. Rifles/ammo which had functioned perfectly in ol' Blighty (England) had much increased pressure in the African heat. The result was cases sticking in the barrel---usually at the worst possible time!

The long double rifle cartridges may appear antiquated by today's standards. They were actually engineering marvels. The long tapered cases were meant to decrease pressure. The taper made extracting easier and much less likely to stick. This is most noticable in Jeffery rounds.

Of course, we do not use cordite today (a damned shame, as it smells so great!). Today's propellants are much less heat sensitive. Likewise, modern metals used in extractors/ejectors is harder and engineering tolerances are better.

I have no doubt that a modern rifle such as a Heym or Merkel can handle rimless cartridges quite nicely.

There are many of us however who love the old rounds. Obsolete? Maybe. I love 'em anyway!

while in general I agree with you as to technology,machining,etc---

I have seen in modern weapons excited hunters "load-over" the extractor and jam a rimless cartridge and even more substantially jam a belted one between the extractors and the barrel.

Thus requiring prising of the said lodged cartridge out of its wedged location .

If you have a 450/400 in either length case that is loaded so as to give 2150 FPS

at the muzzle you just don't need anything else from a double rifle unless you're

a PRO and your rifle is used to protect clients, trackers and yourself from charging

dangerous game. Bbls of 28" will give you just that from HORNADY's 450/400 standard

load, I'd bet $100 on that if I was a gambler at all. Bbls of 26" will give 2100 FPS

I expect, which is the minimum that I'd care to be at. We're talking penetration here.

Will 2400 FPS give more penetration? Sure, but within INTENDED double rifle ranges,

{Buzz Charlton says 25 yards for elephant as an example} 400 grn bullets at .408 -

.416 diameter bullets have such HIGH sectional density that NO ADDITIONAL penetration

should be needed by anyone when such bullets have the MV of 2100 or faster. Why deal

with the extra recoil etc. of the 500/416 caliber. Those ballistics are for bolt guns

so the shooting can be done from greater distances than the typical double rifle is

used at. Take your double in close and have at your game.

quote:

Originally posted by DuggaBoye:

quote:

Originally posted by JohnDL:
Those advocating the use of rimless cartridges in today's double rifles are technically correct.

By way of history, cordite rounds, which came out in the 1890's, had significant problems. Cordite is very temperature-sensitive. Rifles/ammo which had functioned perfectly in ol' Blighty (England) had much increased pressure in the African heat. The result was cases sticking in the barrel---usually at the worst possible time!

The long double rifle cartridges may appear antiquated by today's standards. They were actually engineering marvels. The long tapered cases were meant to decrease pressure. The taper made extracting easier and much less likely to stick. This is most noticable in Jeffery rounds.

Of course, we do not use cordite today (a damned shame, as it smells so great!). Today's propellants are much less heat sensitive. Likewise, modern metals used in extractors/ejectors is harder and engineering tolerances are better.

I have no doubt that a modern rifle such as a Heym or Merkel can handle rimless cartridges quite nicely.

There are many of us however who love the old rounds. Obsolete? Maybe. I love 'em anyway!

while in general I agree with you as to technology,machining,etc---

I have seen in modern weapons excited hunters "load-over" the extractor and jam a rimless cartridge and even more substantially jam a belted one between the extractors and the barrel.

Thus requiring prising of the said lodged cartridge out of its wedged location .

For this to occur, the double rifle in question would have to be so poorly made or so beat up and neglected that it would be unsafe to use on dangerous game regardless of any cartridge for which it might be chambered, flanged or rimless, any cartridge!

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by BEGNO:
...I do not reload ...Opinions please. Thanks

Butch

you asked for opinions

RELOAD ...
Perhaps that wasn't clear

100 cases, at 3 bucks each $300
dies at $150
press kit at 300$
powder 25/# -- it would be about 2# for 100 , $50rounds
bullets 65 per 50, or $130
primers 4cents each - $4 bucks for 100 primers

100 rounds from federal of 470 NE, will cost you $750

100 rounds of hornady 450/400 would probably be closer to 500 .. and the brass would be cheaper, but go with me.

reload the 470 NE, and put a reddot type scope on it

$934 bucks for the first hundred loaded rounds...

afterwards, each 100 rounds would cost you (934-750) = $184 ...

FIVE TO ONE ..

amortorize this over 5 reloadings, which isn't bad case life, that's $3.34 per shot, or 67 bucks per 20 ...

RELOAD

If you don't know how, there's plenty of nra courses and people who will teach you, but you would have to ask.

sorry, pet peeve of mine.. i couldn't shoot as much as i do without reloading

quote:

Originally posted by BEGNO:
surestrike,

Even though I own doubles, I am ignorant, so please help me understand. Why is a rimmed caliber acceptable and others not. Is it function and reliability, resale, both? It can't be the caliber, since 416s are very good at killing African DG.

Thanks

In a modern DR it will perform fine, some will beg to differ. I do prefer rimmed over non-rimmed cases. Resale would not be as good its a higher pressure non-rimmed case. The recoil of the 416 Rigby in the Merkel was stout, I used to own one, in fact it was the first DR I ever owned. Non rimmed caliber, I'd rather have the 458wm in a DR.

quote:

Originally posted by McKay:
I think most are going to recommend a flanged caliber. As would I but I don't know much and only have 3 doubles. If I were you I would go with the 450/400 3" as hornady offers this ammo at a good price....

Mac

+1

JD

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by DuggaBoye:


I have seen in modern weapons excited hunters "load-over" the extractor and jam a rimless cartridge and even more substantially jam a belted one between the extractors and the barrel.

Thus requiring prising of the said lodged cartridge out of its wedged location .

For this to occur, the double rifle in question would have to be so poorly made or so beat up and neglected that it would be unsafe to use on dangerous game regardless of any cartridge for which it might be chambered, flanged or rimless, any cartridge!

JPK

Not old and abused at all.

The instances I have seen occurred more in smaller calibres ,such as 30-06 and .300Win Mag; though two memorable ones I witnessed were in DG calibres. Both events were in new and expensive DR's, one by a Famous Italian maker and one by a Famous Ferlach maker.
One in .375 H&H and one in .416 Rigby.

quote:

Originally posted by BigFiveJack:

Why deal with the extra recoil etc. of the 500/416 caliber. Those ballistics are for bolt guns

They finally give us a double rifle cartridge with the ballistics of a bolt rifle and it's a bad thing? Go with a .500/.416. It's a better cartridge.

Thanks everyone, very informative. I have shelved the 416 idea. The 458 WM is still alive, as well as 450 NE, & 450/400. I am not looking to do this now, just formulating an idea for later.

Jeffeosso,

I respect your opinions and always read them but I came to this site mostly for the African information, not the reloading info. I don't have much interest in reloading, because:

1. My interest is hunting, not shooting.
2. Modern ammunition in modern rifles is very accurate and very affordable.
3. I became a very good shot years ago and have killed tons of animals at distances to 400 yds.
4. All my rifles are accurate and made even more accurate thru gunsmithing (or sold if not).
5. My rifle range is very inconvenient, 23 miles away.
6. My profession doesn't leave much time for the range.

quote:

Originally posted by DuggaBoye:

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by DuggaBoye:


I have seen in modern weapons excited hunters "load-over" the extractor and jam a rimless cartridge and even more substantially jam a belted one between the extractors and the barrel.

Thus requiring prising of the said lodged cartridge out of its wedged location .

For this to occur, the double rifle in question would have to be so poorly made or so beat up and neglected that it would be unsafe to use on dangerous game regardless of any cartridge for which it might be chambered, flanged or rimless, any cartridge!

JPK

Not old and abused at all.

The instances I have seen occurred more in smaller calibres ,such as 30-06 and .300Win Mag; though two memorable ones I witnessed were in DG calibres. Both events were in new and expensive DR's, one by a Famous Italian maker and one by a Famous Ferlach maker.
One in .375 H&H and one in .416 Rigby.

Bull. If the rifle is properly made, there is no room to go over the top with a 375H&H or a 458wm, and the same would apply to a properly made 416 Rigby. In fact, the longer and thicker the case the less possible this could concievably occur. The bullet or shoulder contact with the chamber wall precludes canting the cartridge sufficiently to force it over the paw or clip. The deeper the cartridge is inserted, the less the angle the cartridge can be canted.

For a rifle to allow a cartridge to be forced over the paw or clip, its design was faulty to begin with. Possible errors include too long extractor throw, the longer the throw the greater the cant. If it happened, it was poor rifle design or fitting, no matter who made or designed it.

For the paw or clip to allow the rim of a non-rebated rimless cartridge to pass the same simple geometry applies as above. If the geopmetry is correct, as it would be in a properly made rifle, the cartridge rim cannot pass the paw absent breakage or perhaps a poorly designed paw. Back to square one, in a properly made rifle, it can't happen without breakage.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by BigFiveJack:
If you have a 450/400 in either length case that is loaded so as to give 2150 FPS

at the muzzle you just don't need anything else from a double rifle unless you're

a PRO and your rifle is used to protect clients, trackers and yourself from charging

dangerous game. Bbls of 28" will give you just that from HORNADY's 450/400 standard

load, I'd bet $100 on that if I was a gambler at all. Bbls of 26" will give 2100 FPS

I expect, which is the minimum that I'd care to be at. We're talking penetration here.

Will 2400 FPS give more penetration? Sure, but within INTENDED double rifle ranges,

{Buzz Charlton says 25 yards for elephant as an example} 400 grn bullets at .408 -

.416 diameter bullets have such HIGH sectional density that NO ADDITIONAL penetration

should be needed by anyone when such bullets have the MV of 2100 or faster. Why deal

with the extra recoil etc. of the 500/416 caliber. Those ballistics are for bolt guns

so the shooting can be done from greater distances than the typical double rifle is

used at. Take your double in close and have at your game.

Big5 I agree with you almost, with the exception of your first sentence I placed in bold print above!

I have never understood why anyone thinks a client hunter needs less gun that a PH when both are standing 15 yds from a "bite, scratch, and stomp". Is there a rule, that I'm not aware of, that tells a buffalo, or elephant to only kill the client? Where is the armor that protects against the PH getting hit first, leaving the client to drag the PH's nuts out of the fire. The old phrase "USE ENOUGH GUN!" was not stated for PHs only. I was meant for anyone who is takeing on dangerous game.

I understand the PH haveing a rifle that will take on anything you happen to run into, because he has to hunt it all. When hunting Impala, certainly the client is going to have a rifle that is more suited to impala hunting,(mine is always legal for the big five) and the PH may have to shoot a rhino, or Buffalo, off you they didn't know was in the area. That part makes sence, but to say the client can use less gun when actually hunting dangerous game is an error. There is no good reason to be less armed than the PH. In my case my light rifle is also legal for the big boys so that if we stumble onto a death ray machine, it will fill in!

The 450/400 will fill in just fine!

On the rimless vs flanged IMO, modern, or old the rimless cartridge is not as well suited to double rifles as are the flanged cartridges.

JohnDL's post is 99% true in tha greatest cause of failier to extract in the older double rifles, but there are machanical reasons as well why the rimless/belted rimless rounds are not well suited for double rifles, that have nothing to do with cordite. Though the tolerances are better with modern machines, there are still physical reasons these things sometimes fail, and usually fail at the most inoppertune times. Though the steel is better, and may be even fitted closer ( the jury is still out on that one), the break-top double rifle is still 19th century technology, and is suseptable to the same foiables as the double that is 100 or more yrs old. The simple fact that the double rifle was designed to be used in close for a life saver, the old saying still applies K.I.S.S. (Keep It Simple Stupid) is good advice, IMO.

JPK has had very good service from his 458 Win Mag double rifle, and so is one of the sceptics on the value of the flanged cartridge in a double rifle. Lets hope his opinion is not one that gets him, or someone else hurt.

The other thing about some of the rimless rounds chambered in double rifles today is high pressure. I'm not a fan of high chamber pressures in a double rifle, new or old, but especially in the old ones. Again, IMO, I simply see no reason to disregard the warnings of 100 yrs of the double rifle's history to be simply disregarded because the rifle is new.
To me the KISS theory makes a lot of sense, and the simpler one can make a double rifle the less the chance for a malfunction.

The above is only one man's opinion, and is worth exactly what you paid for it, but there it is!

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
Bull. JPK

The word is not Bull, though it may be-- Broke,
or BAD-- as in quality control.

The " geometry"/"extractor throw"/ "faulty paw/clip" issues were taken up with the builders .

Both rifles were sent back to there respective locales "fixed" but then sold upon return.

Glad your experience has been different, I still prefer a Rim or Flange; even with "faulty" design, the margin for error in the geometry is better.

Butch,
thanks for the feedback, and best of luck on your quest.

This topic reoccurs every year or so and results in essentially the same comments. Usually, it is also mentioned that many reputable manufacturers (e. g., Heym) have and continue to offer rimless calibers in their double rifles.

To be clear, I have no dog in this fight, but would comment that in this litigious environmental in which we live (at least in the United States) that if there was a demonstrable increased chance of a "failure" of this double rifle through the chambering of a rimless cartridge resulting in injury to the shooter that we would be inundated with lawsuits as to this matter and the manufacturers would quickly cease production and offer recalls.

BEGNO,

I think your original thought is sound. I have killed two Tanzanian Buffalo and a Lion with my 416 Rigby and have not wanted for more but your 458 loaded to 2150 or better would maybe give you an edge. My Dakota likes Woodleigh's at 2550 fps for 5775 fp. Your 458 will give you 5233 energy with a 510 @ 2150 but the frontal diameter may give you more comfort. The 416 will give you a good longer range gun. I think you will have a good combination and if you want to shoot just bolt guns you can.

All very good reasons. Go with the .416 Rigby, the greatest cartridge in the world, even with the 45 degree shoulder.

Keep in mind that poor John Rigby didn't have the incredible Dr. Ron "The Don" Rip Berry to direct Rigby operations to change that 45 degree shoulder to a 20 degree shoulder. Dr. Berry discovered the answers too late to save Rigby.