quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

Logically...I agree...but...in my case...I want a .500 NE that will shoot NF's.

I don't have a problem with that, but I believe you need to find out if your gun shoots first with "standard" rn bullets and then go from there.

You will probably end up at the same point, but you could be taking the
long way round to get there / to the same point.

Using my 500/465 as an example, we have a standard load using Woodleigh's, Geoff wanted some recoveries from a DR of the new Woodleigh Hydro's. So my mate loaded up some cases with the new bullets (2 per powder weight), using the usual safety margins when changing a component, we fired them, picked the one we liked and loaded up some more and went hunting. Some of the loads the gun didn't like, but as we had a good base to start with, we knew we would hit the sweet spot.

Anyway, just my HO. Good luck.

.

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

Logically...I agree...but...in my case...I want a .500 NE that will shoot NF's.

I don't have a problem with that, but I believe you need to find out if your gun shoots first with "standard" rn bullets and then go from there.

You will probably end up at the same point, but you could be taking the
long way round to get there / to the same point.

Using my 500/465 as an example, we have a standard load using Woodleigh's, Geoff wanted some recoveries from a DR of the new Woodleigh Hydro's. So my mate loaded up some cases with the new bullets (2 per powder weight), using the usual safety margins when changing a component, we fired them, picked the one we liked and loaded up some more and went hunting. Some of the loads the gun didn't like, but as we had a good base to start with, we knew we would hit the sweet spot.

Anyway, just my HO. Good luck.

.

I have some 570 Woodleigh softs on hand...will load some to try as well.

quote:

Lane,

Not sure what your gun was regulated with either. Probably Wolfgang Romey which are only available in the US as Westley Richards ammo and runs in the $200 range for 6 rounds.

However, I have found that Hornady factory ammo shoots pretty good out of Merkels regulated with Wolfgang Romey. I would use that as a starting point and adjust from there.

In the Merkels I have shot regulated with Wolfgang Romey, when trying Hornady factory rounds, there has been no crossing or significant vertical spread, but they usually shoot a little low.

It's definitely going to be a formula of bullet and powder. You'll find the right combo, just don't write it off as poor regulation; it is not.

Mike

Mike,

I have some Hornaday 570 gr DGX bullets. What powder under them R-15 too?

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Lane,

Not sure what your gun was regulated with either. Probably Wolfgang Romey which are only available in the US as Westley Richards ammo and runs in the $200 range for 6 rounds.

However, I have found that Hornady factory ammo shoots pretty good out of Merkels regulated with Wolfgang Romey. I would use that as a starting point and adjust from there.

In the Merkels I have shot regulated with Wolfgang Romey, when trying Hornady factory rounds, there has been no crossing or significant vertical spread, but they usually shoot a little low.

It's definitely going to be a formula of bullet and powder. You'll find the right combo, just don't write it off as poor regulation; it is not.

Mike

Mike,

I have some Hornaday 570 gr DGX bullets. What powder under them R-15 too?

Lane,

I believe Hornady claims they use a proprietary powder mixture designed just for them. The Wolfgang Romey factory loads are usually Woodleigh solids. That's why I think the DGS Hornady factory loads will probably shoot well from your gun; but just a guess.

As to powder, I don't handload for the .500, but from what I've read, the RL-19 is popular. New guy suggested RL-17 as well. I have no experience with RL-17, maybe others do.

I think I would try some Woodleight bullets with RL-19 next. The reason why I suggested you try the Hornady factory was to see if the Hornady bullets along with their published velocity rates would get your gun shooting better; then adjust from there.

I think that regardless of which powder type you use, a velocity of 2150 should be your starting point.

I've heard that the Wolfgang Romey loads are a little faster than Hornady. Maybe someone else can add more here. I just can't see why more velocity than 2150 would ever be "needed" in a .500NE.

Just my thoughts and guesses.

Mike

Guys, I have a .470 Blaser that was regulated with WR ammo with Woodleigh bullets. When I got the gun, I just picked up a box of Hornady DGX ammo cause I wanted the cases. Turns out the Hornady ammo was running FASTER than the WR ammo. My gun was right in the Kyoch window. with the shooter barrels, it regulates at around 2000-2050 fps. The Hornady ammo runs up in the 2150 fps neighborhood. At 50 meters, it was crossing in my gun.

quote:

As to powder, I don't handload for the .500, but from what I've read, the RL-19 is popular. New guy suggested RL-17 as well. I have no experience with RL-17, maybe others do.

I think I would try some Woodleight bullets with RL-19 next. The reason why I suggested you try the Hornady factory was to see if the Hornady bullets along with their published velocity rates would get your gun shooting better; then adjust from there.

When NFMike did his testing in his pressure barrel...R-15 was the superior powder for NF bullets and a few others he tested.

If people are using R-19...have not heard of any...then R-17 seems like the next step to me.

BTW...I am gonna shoot another set of NF FPS's over 95 & 96 gr of R-15 with the bullets seated a smidge deeper (in last groove closest to nose). That will put them a smidge over 0.030 off the lands in my rifle. First-ones were ~0.015 off lands in 2nd groove.

If still the same...going to the Woodleighs to check.

Would like to hear of others Woodleigh loads as to powder recs.

OK...dug out the box. It was regulated with WR 570 gr softs. I assume that WR is the Wolfgang Romey stuff???

Broke down and bought a box of Hornady DGS ammo from LionHunter.

We'll see how they shoot. The reg target looks fine.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
I assume that WR is the Wolfgang Romey stuff???

Bingo!

What is Wolfgang Romey soft? Just a round-nose soft cup and core bullet???

Romey loads Woodleigh softs and solids.

quote:

Originally posted by new_guy:
Romey loads Woodleigh softs and solids.

Thank you Chris!!! You have been most helpful.

Ledvm:

I mentioned that I have a Chapuis 9.3X74R that was crossing a bit and giving me a bit of a vertical string. The right barrel was shooting a bit high and the left barrel was shooting a bit low with Hornady bullets and 57 grains of RamShot Big Game. I dropped the load down one grain with the same bullet they are not longer crossing. At 50 meters, they are hitting almost together horizontally but I am still getting a vertical string.

I next tried a load that I got from Graeme Wright's book, 57 grains of Reloder 15 and a 286 Woodleigh RN SN. They are spot on at 50 meters but still a bit of a vertical string although less so than with the Hornady bullets. That's okay with me. At fifty meters they are shooting into a 2-3 inch group without a scope and that's probably as good as this old man's eyes can do.

That darn cape buffalo will never know what hit him

Update:

As all have speculated...when I loaded up some 570 gr Woodleigh softs (what is regulated with) the barrels shot perfectly horizontal at 25 yds.

I got some Hornady factory DG solids from Lionhunter and they shot better than the NF FPS's but still had a inch of vertical spread with the left being higher and they are NOT fast enough to regulate out of this rilfe...about 4" appart at 25. Did not chrono the Hornaday's but will.

Also...I seated some NF FPS's ~.045 off the lands (last groove) and they narrowed to 2" vertical spread at 25.

So now...2 questions:

1) how far apart horizontally do I want my loads at 25? at 50?

2) is there any hope for getting this rifle to shoot NF FPS better or am I relegated to shooting those f******g Woodleighs?

Don't be too hard on the Woodleighs. All of the elephant I have shot were shot with Woodleighs and none got up and walked away.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Don't be too hard on the Woodleighs. All of the elephant I have shot were shot with Woodleighs and none got up and walked away.

Agreed...but Ganayana would say the same for his 9.3 or his FN for that matter.

I know they will work...just don't think they are the best tool for the job.

MacD37,
You out there??? How far apart do you want your horizontal spread at 25 & 50?

ledvm

I work on the width of the barrels.

I can't see why it should be different at 25 or 50 - or 100 for that matter.

If they start parallel, they finish parallel.

.

Well my rifle will go from 3" apart @ ~2050 to almost together @ ~2150. So back off until printing the width of the barrels and that is proper???

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Well my rifle will go from 3" apart @ ~2050 to almost together @ ~2150. So back off until printing the width of the barrels and that is proper???

In theory, yes, BUT, remember these are DR's and are a law unto themselves sometimes.


It MAY turn out that you need a compromise that gives you good, none crossing regulation at all ranges as opposed to really good at 25 and crap at 100.

The optimum of course being that they run parallel all the way.

Well with lion fight slowing down again...hopefully will load some .500's this weekend.

Michael 458 was kind enough to send me some of he and Sam's bullets to try...man they look good! Hopefully they will save me from the fate of Woodleighs.

Lane,

Try Woodleighs and IMR-4831 starting at 110.0gr and work your way up in 1/2 gr increments until you get to about 2,100 to 2,150fps and the groups come together and it regulates. Forget the North Forks. Just my 2 cents.

Andy

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Hopefully they will save me from the fate of Woodleighs.

You mean the one's designed for Double rifles and used by people all over the world ?


Apart from you wanting to use NF's, what is your problem with Woodleigh's ?


.

Nigel are we talking about Woodleighs one of the best known DG bullets and the Standard for many years????? And to hell you say not invented by a board member they must be junk...

quote:

Originally posted by Express_Rifles:
Nigel are we talking about Woodleighs one of the best known DG bullets and the Standard for many years????? And to hell you say not invented by a board member they must be junk...

If it wasn't for Jim Bell (Bell Brass), Geoff from Woodleigh and 1 other, the world would have been stuck for Brass and Bullets for a few more years (and the 700 Nitro may not have come about !!! LOL)

Ledvm,

I have taken around three handfuls of elephant with .474, .468 and .458 Woodleigh solids. All died quickly, the bullets penetrated more than enough to reach the vitals on all shots and traveled strait as far as one can tell in these situations. I would use them again with complete conidence.

Almost forgot to say that I don't get to excited about trying to get my DG doubles to print bullets 3/4" apart at 50 yards as is supposed to be the correct way. Why? Well if your bullets hit the same hole at 50 yards they will only cross 1" at 100 yards. since you are unlikely to shoot any DG much beyond that range, why worry about it? Both my 465 and 470 doubles are regulated for around 2,050 fps. They regulate around 1" apart at this range. When I up the velocity to 2,150 fps. they shoot right on top of each other. The extra 100 fps. in velocity is worth more to me than 1" of crossing at 100 yards.

465H&H

ledvm,

I suspect you and I are a like in some ways, one of them being we want what we want - anything else is settling for "less".

You want NorthForks to work in your Merkel Double 500NE. You seem to have exhausted all avenues of making that happen using all of the DR tricks that experienced folk have suggested.

If I were you, I would build a load with the components I prefer at the velocity I wanted and hire J.J. Perodeau at Champlins to regulate the DR to that load.

I suspect no matter what other recipe you come up with that is "good enough" regardless of bullet, if it is not a NF you will chaffe every time you think about it.

Break out the wallet, settle back and let J.J. make it work the way you want.

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Hopefully they will save me from the fate of Woodleighs.

You mean the one's designed for Double rifles and used by people all over the world ?


Apart from you wanting to use NF's, what is your problem with Woodleigh's ?


.

Nigel
Problem with Woodleighs? If Lane does not have an issue, then I would like to answer that one. Woodleigh Problem, now assuming you are talking about the FMJ round nose version, not the wonderful soft points. Of course the nose profile is the first and foremost problem. We all know that any round nose solid is subject to stability issues-not guaranteed, subject to! To deny this, is foolish--it can happen, it has happened, and will happen. I know you will say that "It has never happened to me" As will some others. But there are folks right here on this forum, that it has happened to.

Now, I have NEVER had a Woodleigh FMJ veer off course in animal tissue myself! Why? I have never used one in the field is why. I have had OTHER round nose solids veer off course in animal tissue, several times.

Even Woodleigh recognizes the need for a flat nose solid--Hence the Hydro! Which I think you like as well! I do too, it's a good bullet. As is the North Fork, and As is the CEB BBW#13.

Now, with all the strain gage work and barrel strain work I have been doing, the Woodleigh FMJ is also at the top end of barrel strain for doubles, in every test. The only thing that has exceeded it, and not by much, has been the old barnes monos with no bands, always recognized as being hard on "Double Rifles". I think, no, actually I know, when you state "designed for double rifles" what you actually mean is designed to "Regulate" as in some of the older bullets that were used for the doubles. Today, with the new knowledge we have, we can make a better bullet by far!

Better bullet--Flat Nose profile, deeper penetration, straighter, more reliable penetration, larger wound channels and more damage and trauma inflicted, band configurations that reduce bearing surface, there for reducing barrel strain, and being safer for double rifles, and in fact actually "Designed" for double rifles, for better overall performance, and less bearing surface and less actual barrel strain.

The fact that the Woodleighs are used by people all over the world, is because for a time, that's all there was! Not so anymore!

Michael

CCMDoc

quote:

You want NorthForks to work in your Merkel Double 500NE. You seem to have exhausted all avenues of making that happen using all of the DR tricks that experienced folk have suggested.

If I were you, I would build a load with the components I prefer at the velocity I wanted and hire J.J. Perodeau at Champlins to regulate the DR to that load.

ABSOLUTELY!!!!! This is not an expensive ordeal as I understand it. Not cheap---but by god if I wanted the best bullet I could go to the field with, then I would make it happen. Someone should look really hard at the way these guns are regulated to begin with. If I were to be building one of these, I would have it regulated with the bullets I wanted to use in the field. Of course one that is already built one can't do anything about that, but with JJ Perodeau on hand, it would be a no brainer for me. Why spend all that money on a double rifle, then go to the field with a less than desirable bullet? Just because that is what has been for the last 100 yrs? Nahhhh, I don't buy that.

Michael

Michael458

Now you just get back in the Big Bore forum with your bullet testing and stay there


I know what you are saying.

Re the nose shape, I would say one of the reasons geoff doesn't change the nose shape is because they are made along Kynoch lines so yes, you are right as to why.

Remember Geoff took them and made them Bonded core which Kynoch did not.

You mention the strain, I find that hard to believe since the bullets are shaped and only bore dimension at the very base of the bullet.
Either way, they work.

I've seen the new bullets (Woodleigh Hydro's) work first hand in a direct comparison on one animal and I know what you are saying. Can you believe I actually fired them through my DR !!! LOL

Anyway, I have no problem with the "new" bullets, I do have a problem with ledvm and his attitude when it's not the Woodleigh's that are the problem.

.

Except I thought someone posted that JJ has refused to work on any more Sabatti's ?

.

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
Except I thought someone posted that JJ has refused to work on any more Sabatti's ?

.

ledvm has a Merkel 500NE

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
Except I thought someone posted that JJ has refused to work on any more Sabatti's ?

.

ledvm has a Merkel 500NE

My mistake.

500N

HEH.....Hey Most double rifles are Big Bores as well--last time I checked, they shot big bore bullets too! LOL.....

You know I can't figure why folks "fixate" on one issue with the Woodleigh FMJ--Round Nose solids! Woodleigh makes some DAMN fine bullets, and I have plenty on my shelves. In fact one much overlooked bullet I designed a cartridge around it--416 B&M and the 340 Woodleigh. I used this bullet in Tanzania in a 416 Remington as my light rifle, and this bullet hammered everything hard from small thin critters, up to Roan. Many other fine conventional premiums come out of the Woodleigh Factory as well. But in my opinion, any FMJ or RN solid comes up short in many areas.

Take another look at bearing surface on the Woodleigh FMJ--it's a lot more than just at the base of the bullet.










In 458 Caliber see the barrel strains listed, using a Woodleigh Soft as the Benchmark Bullet. The FMJ comes in a good bit higher in barrel strain. And with the same load, more chamber pressure as well. You may also note that the Woodleigh Hydro came in with LESS barrel strain than even the Woodleigh Soft.



In the 470 Nitro we found pretty much the same results with the FMJ--not far below the Old Barnes mono, with no bands.





Woodleigh has a lot of really good bullets, I just don't believe the FMJ RN is one of them. They have better than that. I have used a lot of Woodleighs in the field, with great success. But I would not get caught in the field now with ANY FMJ or RN Solid From any company. There are a great many better performers to choose from.

I will say that the Hydro is the ugliest bullet I have ever seen--but it does well in the test work, and from what I have heard does it's job in the field as well--some of that great info coming direct from you as I recall.

Now maybe I will slip back up to the big bores! LOL......

Michael

quote:

Take another look at bearing surface on the Woodleigh FMJ--it's a lot more than just at the base of the bullet.

Yes, I didn't say the barrels don't engage just the base of the bullet, I said they were tapered from just in front of the base of the bullet.

So yes, they do engage, but the FMJ is NOT .585 all the way to the start of the curve.

And in any case, the bullets "give" anyway unlike mono's.


When I tested the 465 Hydro's, my 465 very very slightly engraved the whole bullet length.

Now it was not a problem with the bullet, my bores are slightly under size. Geoff asked if there was any problem with the gun and I said no, barrels were good.

So at least we have some data about what happens when your bore is undersize and the whole bullet is engraved.


One thing I'll say about banded bullets - Hydro's and others - you better make sure you know your bore size.

In case you are wondering, when Geoff from Woodleigh asked me to get some DR Hydro recoveries, he did specifically ask about the bore size of my gun before making them and I had only measured it with a caliper, not a micrometer (which is what Geoff uses).

.

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:
ledvm,

I suspect you and I are a like in some ways, one of them being we want what we want - anything else is settling for "less".

You want NorthForks to work in your Merkel Double 500NE. You seem to have exhausted all avenues of making that happen using all of the DR tricks that experienced folk have suggested.

If I were you, I would build a load with the components I prefer at the velocity I wanted and hire J.J. Perodeau at Champlins to regulate the DR to that load.

I suspect no matter what other recipe you come up with that is "good enough" regardless of bullet, if it is not a NF you will chaffe every time you think about it.

Break out the wallet, settle back and let J.J. make it work the way you want.

Yessir...you are exactly correct.

I am still tinkering with the NF's and am going to try Michael's bullets. If all else fails...JJ's shop is only about 150 miles away from me. Will send in with a good load of Flat Point solids.

quote:

Woodleigh has a lot of really good bullets, I just don't believe the FMJ RN is one of them.

And their .510 570 softs look like pancakes when I dig them out of my target box.

Will post some pics of them.

quote:

I have taken around three handfuls of elephant with .474, .468 and .458 Woodleigh solids. All died quickly, the bullets penetrated more than enough to reach the vitals on all shots and traveled strait as far as one can tell in these situations. I would use them again with complete conidence.

I am sure they work fine 90% of the time. I just say why mess with them if you can make a better bullet shoot.

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
Except I thought someone posted that JJ has refused to work on any more Sabatti's ?

.

ledvm has a Merkel 500NE

My mistake.

Bite your tongue...no Sabbatti here!

quote:

Originally posted by Cane Rat:
Lane,

Try Woodleighs and IMR-4831 starting at 110.0gr and work your way up in 1/2 gr increments until you get to about 2,100 to 2,150fps and the groups come together and it regulates. Forget the North Forks. Just my 2 cents.

Andy

Yep the rifle shoots Woodleighs just fine even with R15.