What has the state of the economy done to the double rifle market? Anybody know of a smokin deal on a 450/400?

Not sure, but that is a damn fine question.
Should go for all guns in general.

I have been swapping emails with the Luxus guys about some guns they are having built in Italy by various makers.
They have some options they sent me in emails.

I am thinking of a 450/400 myself, as if I need another.
The price is what is tempting. They are starting at $8,999.
The gun I am looking at is $17,500. And with a real nice piece of timber on it.

I am not sure why they have no images on their website, I just looked.
If I knew how to post images here I would.
sorry.

AS FAR AS PRICES GO SOME ARE DROPPED TO REDUCE INVENTORY. but they won't stay down after the excess inventory is sold off.

used guns seem to be harder to sell than normal.

the banks are in trouble, people are scared.

classical economics says don't hold money , hold hard goods in times like this.

i emptied my ira to buy double rifles. they will be more valuable in the long run than our poor near worthless dollar.

Sellers say prices are unchanged, just like the safari industry.

the high end stuff keeps going up, the mediun and the low end is stabel as of now.

best regards

peter

Scott,

Once you shoot a 450/400 you will know why they love them...

Mike

Shot my 450#2 yesterday.. Off hand at 27yds. took out the X makes me smile...

From the dealers I have talked to...

Black rifles, pistols and carry guns are through the roof.

C&R and Antiques are DEAD, these dealers are really struggling and aren't selling much.

High end stuff has gone soft. Stuff is still selling but not as quickly and dealers are having to offer bigger discounts then usual.

Run of the mill hunting stuff is dead.

quote:

C&R and

What is C&R ??????

Probably curios and relics.

quote:

Originally posted by bigdoggy700:
Probably curios and relics.

Thanks.

I agree.

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:

quote:

C&R and

What is C&R ??????

It stands for Curio and Relic. Here in the US we have a Federal Firearms Licence for collectors only. It allows you to buy firearms 50 years old or older and special collector guns. This license allows you to buy guns in different States and wlak away with them. Modern guns would need to be shipped to a dealer in your State and then transferred to you. A huge segment of the C&R market is WWII rifles and pistols, Lugers, 1903 Springfields etc.

Tom I'm afraid that you are right about the Dollar. If we continue on this trajectory soon zim operators will want payment in Zim dollars. It may be worth more that the US, or at least they can legally use it in country. Oh well we tried. We will just have to hold on and see how it turns out. In the mean time a nice double is a thing to behold!

quote:

Originally posted by els:
Tom I'm afraid that you are right about the Dollar. If we continue on this trajectory soon zim operators will want payment in Zim dollars. It may be worth more that the US, or at least they can legally use it in country. Oh well we tried. We will just have to hold on and see how it turns out. In the mean time a nice double is a thing to behold!

Please do me a favor and check on the value of the dollar today vs. last year. Take a look at the Euro or the Pound. Next check on the financial stability of many of the members of the EU, namely Spain, Italy, Greece, Belgium and most of the eastern European members. Lastly check into the stimulous packages of China and the rest of the world.

I think you will be very surprised as to what is actually going on and not reported in the main stream media.

The US isn't in great shape but we are currently the tallest midget as I like to say.

I don't doubt that in the peoples republic of Mass. that gun sales are down. Here in "GUNLAND" the currently free state of Texas gun sales are strong. Everthing but BB guns are selling faster than we can get the inventory. Low end guns will not rise in value much. Mid grade stuff goes up if the manufacturer discontinues the model. The high end guns have proven to outpace inflation and just about any other legal investment.

quote:

Originally posted by Brain1:
I don't doubt that in the peoples republic of Mass. that gun sales are down. Here in "GUNLAND" the currently free state of Texas gun sales are strong. Everthing but BB guns are selling faster than we can get the inventory. Low end guns will not rise in value much. Mid grade stuff goes up if the manufacturer discontinues the model. The high end guns have proven to outpace inflation and just about any other legal investment.

Waging ad hominem attacks hardly makes your case any stronger.

I will be more specific for you. I was referring to visits to stores like Griffin and Howe, shows like East Coast firearms show in Greenwich CT and watching auctions at Amoskeag and James Julia recently.

Take a minute and look at the recent James Julia auction prices, you can't tell me they weren't weak in most cases. Lots of guns didn't sell and many sold below low estimates.

Also, I didn't say gun sales were bad in Mass, they are through the roof actually. If you sell black rifles, defense shotguns, pistols or carry guns you are making a killing.

Posts like yours are the EXACT reason we will always have bubbles in investments. "Because it was gone up a lot in the past" is the WORST reason to buy something. The guys who made a lot of money in double rifles were buying them when nobody wanted them and they were considered obsolete. They were a good investment because they were a good VALUE.

quote:

Posts like yours are the EXACT reason we will always have bubbles in investments. "Because it was gone up a lot in the past" is the WORST reason to buy something. The guys who made a lot of money in double rifles were buying them when nobody wanted them and they were considered obsolete. They were a good investment because they were a good VALUE.

Exactly. Well said.

Personally, I think the major jumps in prices of DR's has occurred and from now on it will
be incremental increases, keeping place with inflation.

You will always get the odd bargain around, as well as those places that price high
for the level of the gun but in general, with the internet, things seem to level out
for particular guns - ie 450/400's, 470's etc.

That's just my HO, I may be wrong but hey, it's still a seller's market to an extent
if you have the right gun.

[quote]Posted Mar 24, 9:47 PM Hide Post

quote:
Originally posted by els:
Tom I'm afraid that you are right about the Dollar. If we continue on this trajectory soon zim operators will want payment in Zim dollars. It may be worth more that the US, or at least they can legally use it in country. Oh well we tried. We will just have to hold on and see how it turns out. In the mean time a nice double is a thing to behold!



Please do me a favor and check on the value of the dollar today vs. last year.

Geof, I hope you will accept my apology. That was a rash statement on my part. In fact just to make it up to you and show the world your and my faith in our currency and the people who are running our government I will offer to borrow from you $50,000.00 to buy this H & H that I have lusted over for quite some time. Since you and I know that those good old dollars are as sound as gold I would like to borrow it as a 15 year balloon note. I will pay you a solid 3% interest, simple, payable on each anniversary of the note. At the end of the 15 year period I will repay the entire principal. Thank you in advance.

It is a little too late here now because the rifle is on the east coast but in the morning I will put in the call and tell the owner that his check is on the way

P.S. If you really want to show everyone how much faith you have I will be happy to borrow the money for a 30 year period. Thanks again

So what is a reasonable price for a low end double?

Els,

He's right the dollar is up vs the Euro and about every currency. We are the tallest midget.

Borrowing at 3% isn't that far off if your credit is good, like the US's. Current 10yr T-Bill yield is 2.9%. 30 yr Treasury note is 3.71%. http://www.bloomberg.com/markets/rates/index.html

I just renegotiated a line of credit arrangement and the sticking point wasn't current rates or term, it was that the bank wanted a 5% floor to the interest rate, which is based on LIBOR or prime, depending. That is the first time I have experienced a bank demanding a floor on a short term revolving line of credit.

We're in for some stagflation, I think, but it will take a while to get here. And when it becomes apparent, it will suprise "everyone".

On doubles appreciating, well you need enough people with discretionary funds to want them, and you need labor prices to keep shooting through the roof in relative terms. The cost of labor is the one driving force behind the double rifle price escalation, imo. The cost of a replacement rifle is so high, it drives up the prices of even 2nd and third tier, and even beater vintage rifles.

Discretionary funds for double rifles and escalating labor costs are related, eh? At what point in history did the lawyer or doctor or salesman have the dough to collect several double rifles? Well, only recently.

...

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by GeoffM24:

quote:

Originally posted by els:
Tom I'm afraid that you are right about the Dollar. If we continue on this trajectory soon zim operators will want payment in Zim dollars. It may be worth more that the US, or at least they can legally use it in country. Oh well we tried. We will just have to hold on and see how it turns out. In the mean time a nice double is a thing to behold!

Please do me a favor and check on the value of the dollar today vs. last year. Take a look at the Euro or the Pound. Next check on the financial stability of many of the members of the EU, namely Spain, Italy, Greece, Belgium and most of the eastern European members. Lastly check into the stimulous packages of China and the rest of the world.

I think you will be very surprised as to what is actually going on and not reported in the main stream media.

The US isn't in great shape but we are currently the tallest midget as I like to say.

The main difference between the US Dollar, the Euro and the Pound Sterling is this;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...QGHU&feature=related

Cheers

NEW euro guns will be cheaper, in the short term. If you trusted a dealer that said the REASON euro guns doubled in price in the last 10 years or so is due to the Euro vs dollar, then those same fine and honorable men should be presenting this as the case. Excluding current inventory,
USED guns, however, will have NO change in value (price, maybe, but not value) as they are already "converted" to dollars.

NEW GUNS
only a DEALER with an inventory (that's over priced) will tell you that the falling euro won't result in cheaper EU goods. That person has something to SELL you.

The dollar is as strong as it has been in a LONG time, against nearly every other currency -

"tallest" of whatever unit, is still the tallest.

IMHO, this is the time to BUY euros

Just back from the Tulsa show.

C&R's in good condition were not at all soft, those in less prime shape may have been.

Prices in general were on par with last year.

Soft spots seem to be consumer grade "deer" rifles and shotguns, Model 12's in particular seem softer and some revolvers.

Perhaps "real" purchase prices were down vs posted prices , but it was hard to tell.

I made fewer " good buys" than last year from my perspective.
The consumers walking in seemed perhaps a tad easier to "bid down" to purchase from.

As far as Texas gunshops, the ones that I am personally familiar with have all had banner years, in fact, one posted it's best year ever.

I'm just waiting for the Banker's to come up with their next Money Laundering Scheme...The first of these being in the 80's when the Bankers laundered Billion's of Cocaine Dollars and the most recent Laundering of Billions of Chinese Assets..
We all better Pray that were still the World Reserve Currency when that Day comes..
AK