Well after years of waiting the SPR 22 arrived. Much to my dissappointment, though. I am going to need some help. I don't mind the aggressive stamp checkering or the rigidity of the actions lockup. But I do find that when I naturally shoulder the rifle either my head is way too big or the stock configuration is a beast. The linear sighting plane is off of my alignment. It is very akward that I must move my head about 3 inches back to be able to look straight down the mid rib and be able to line up the sights. I can't tell if they (sights) are just very high or the stock configuration is low. In all fairness though, I am 6'5" 220 pounds and the rifle overall is kind of frail and danity looking in my hands. Is is possible to correct this problem with the stock or am I just to adjust how I position my head?

By the way,
She comes with a two tone rear stock. Very dark wood around reciever that fades to a much lighter color towards the butt pad.

Other than that, she points in the same direction I am looking and will fire both barrels. All in all, just working out some of the kinks will take a little time, but I own a good functioning rifle without the frills. She and I will be suited for spending many day in the swampy marshes of south Georgia chasing hogs and deer, if I can got that stock sorted out.

About the 12 gauge/ .30-06 barrel interchange, now that spr22 is here I will check on it when I go to my brother's house out of town, for sighting in and reclaiming my shotgun.

Thanks for the help.

get a galco slip-on recoil pad, you won't need it for the recoil, but it might help in making the length of pull right for you.... and try a lace-on cheekpiece pad too....they'll keep your face from getting slammed by an ill-fitting stock...

mine shoots fine, and i am a gorrilla armed 6'4, 225 ... but i am using a scope ..

you might consider what jim said .. and just try her out.. don't put super duper hot loads in her.. she's built for cruising

frail? LOL.. she's only frail by russian tractor standards .. buy tiny, sure!

Judge Jerry here found that a Pachmayer pre-fit M70 pad fit just about perfect. He's getting 2" 4-shot groups at 60yds with a scope on his.

Rich

I bought one in 45-70 about a year ago. Test fired it a few times to just play with it and put it in the safe until I had time to play with it and tune it to my preference. Other than the trigger pull being horrendous, for an under $1K double…it is what it is. Finally have some time to play with it yesterday at the range. I mounted a Nikon 1.5x4.5 scope with a set of 11mm based 22cal rings I happened to find in my spare parts drawers. Very lucky find because one of the pair had a vertical set screw that fit perfectly in the half moon key slot at the rear of the mounting rib rail. Loads were 325gr and 425gr cast both over 30gr of H4198. Started at the 25yd range and the 325’s.

I shot just the right barrel and got the scope/right barrel hitting about ¾” just right of bull and 1” high pretty easily. Next started on just the left barrel. First shots were about 6” left of bull. Used the jackscrew and put a one full turn (four quarter turns) towards the butt. Resulted in moving the left barrel impact point 6” right but also move the right barrel impact point 2” left (crossing). Started backing the jackscrew the other way a quarter of a turn and test firing. Once I had both barrels shooting barrel with apart I went back to adjusting the scope for POI. Net result at 25yd with the 325s were two jagged holes (5 shots each barrel) – right group ¾” right of bull and left barrel ¾” left but ¾” low. Dropped in a couple of 425s – Let’s just say I highly recommend you decide what load you intend to shoot and then stay with it. Though not as bad as when I first started POIs definitely changed a bit. Decided to stay with the 425s and once set POIs again, moved the target to 50yds. Pleasant surprise was that it only took a few more rounds to get both barrels regulated to 1 ½” spread between groups.

The only problem is the right and left barrels have about a 3” vertical spread – left barrel is just left of bull centerline and right barrel just right of bull centerline and 3” high. Guess I could settle for that – use left as my 50yd barrel and the right as my 100yd, but would prefer to have them both shooting the same if I can. Remember reading a post by someone some time ago with the same high/low issue and he talked about “twisting” the barrels. Not sure I want to go that extreme without more info.

Overall put 100 rounds through it for the morning and my overall impressions are.

1. One hell of a lot of fun to shoot.
2. Not intended or designed to ever be a “Dangerous Game” rifle all though I think it might be OK for Leopard over bait.
3. Fit/Finish – for under $1K not bad – clearly not in the realm of the high-end doubles but I'll keep the money and spend the difference on a couple of more Plains Game hunts. Triggers are pretty bad – dropped it off at my gunsmith on the way home. Just want him to hone/polish/de-bur the triggers and get them both to between 3 ½ and 4 ½ pounds. Don’t care about the over travel, I can live with that. Just want them both somewhere south of 15 pounds and consistent.
4. Regulation (other then the vertical issue) was pretty easy and straightforward. Once I get it back from the GS in a couple of weeks I’ll get it on the 100yd range.
5. Pressure/Load data – seems to be a lot of speculation on what it can be loaded to. Mine has a 2200 BAR limit printed on the left barrel. Goggle search of “Convert BAR to PSI” turns up a nice little conversion table Convertion Calculator that says 2200 BAR equals 31908.36 PSI. This is considerably above “Trapdoor” level loads and according to my reloading manual, put this into the “Modern Lever Rifle” pressures. I say again – I would not consider this a DG rifle but anything up to deer/black bear/elk and all African PG – absolutely. In fact, just got back from my second PG hunt to Namibia and if I can get the triggers better and some 425gr hard cast moving at 1700-1800 fps I intend to take it next year for just that as well as my primary shooter for Northern Whitetail this fall.
6. It is very light – 6.5 lbs maybe 7 now with the scope – recoil with the loads I was using yesterday was pretty tame. But I have been shooting a LOT of 450Marlin with 425gr hard cast at 2000fps in my 1895M for the hunt I just got back from. One thing I did before I went to the range yesterday was soften up the rubber recoil pad. It has some holes partially through the pad that goes to the middle reinforcing rib – I just drilled all the way through the mid rib – turned out nearly as “cushy” as the Decelerator pad on the 1895M. Cost me all of ten minutes.
7. Barrels heat up VERY fast. After 3 sets of shots, the barrels where nearly too hot to hold to reload. But they also cool down very quickly too. The chambers were fine, but the barrels over the fore stock area got real hot real fast. Thought maybe this was what was causing the vertical stringing, so let them cool down well between sets and even tried firing the left barrel first – no difference (good thing/bad thing).

I hope Judge Jerry will see this post and have some ideas about how to adjust the vertical regulation. I did find one posting where he mentioned removing the font cap on the barrels and removing some material and replacing the cap – While am happy to turn adjusting screws all day, I am very nervous about removing metal without some very complete instructions.

All in all – it is more fun than should be allowed and it is what it is and should not be compared to a $10K + double and was never intended to be an African DG rifle. But then the price difference will pay for a lot of hunting trips too.

for the record, one sights in the left barrel... then adjusts the right. it will make better groups that way.

left barrel, in most cases, and absolutely in this case, is fixed

rude but crude effictive way to take the vertical string out, is to clamp the barrels in a vise, slip a huge cresent wrench over the muzzle end and twist, ever so gently...they'll spring back... this procedure was developed without the use of any alcohol or caffiene...it moved mine to the same plane....

Jeff:

Thanks - figures I'd do it backwards All in all I guess I still sorted it out somewhat. Guess when I get it to the range again I'll shoot it standing on my head and see if I can correct the vertical spread.

Has anybody actually "twisted" theirs? If so, any advice as to how much twisting pressure your talking about?

quote:

it moved mine to the same plane....

i did.... mine was stringing the right barrel up diagonally about 2" higher than the left... now it shhots "level".... maybe you can just hold your gun canted to the right and then it will be level....

Jimatcat:

Good idea....maybe I could just make sure I shoot along a hillside.

Actually, shouldn't you hope for just a touch higher from the left barrel than from the right? Same idea as Modified choke in the right and Full in the left. That second shot is going to be at a further distance than the first - unless the whitetail charges!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15ut0KUHO9E

Tom

Are these still available?? and if so from whom? Remington doesn't list them on there site and spartan wont load

Hi, Guys:

Saw your thread, these rifles have intrigued me since they were first rumored several years ago. Idaho Sharpshooter, Rich, and I talked at length by phone trying to figure out how to get one before they were actually imported. Blank, in Idaho Falls, got one and showed it to me. I was hooked for sure then, but also realized there would be huge challenges after seeing/holding Blank's.

Finally got it a year or so ago--a local gun dealer/friend called Remington found out where the last ones were shipped, called that distributor and got one shipped to us. $763 wholesale plus 10% got me into it right decent.

Then the challenges began. Fortunately MrJudgeOC, Mike, had posted his very complete gun smithing photos and directions here on AR so I knew there was hope. Made arrangements with him to work on it then I drove the rifle to Washington so he could do it on his days off. He spent two days on it. The triggers are very acceptable after his work! He also filed/rounded the two cocking levers so the gun will stay open and you can load it without downward force on the barrels, he made a new front sight. He is outstanding! We worked on regulation some.

A big thanks also to jeffeosso for his input where to find scope mounts. Pyramid Air has the mount and it only cost $28 delivered to Idaho! I put a Leupold VX3 1.75x6 on it so I could see to shoot. My older eyes older eyes just don't focus like they did in yesteryear. I am uncertain enough with open sights that I couldn't see any difference between regulation with/without the scope. I ultimately regulated it with the scope. The target will be close enough the times I shoot it without the scope that the difference, if there is any, won't be significant. I'd next like to find a quick detach mount that would stay sighted. This one needs re-sighting each time it is removed/put back on.

I found the particular load that seemed to work best for both barrels. I shot literally hundreds of rounds trying to find the "compromised" combination. I live in the wilds here in Idaho so it was only 15 yards from the reloading bench inside the house to the stand-up shooting bench outside. Thank heavens I wasn't driving to the range--it would have been horrible trying all the different combinations if I would have had to drive!!!!! Some loads would shoot well in one barrel and not so good the other. I tried IMR3031, IMR4198, Reloader 7, Benchmark, Varget, and XMP5744. Tried several different bullets with each powder at the different powder levels. Tried cast and jacketed bullets. The gun didn't group well in either barrel with the cast bullets. Finally settled on IMR 3031--48 grains, with the Remington 405 grain jacketed flat point. I could easily get 1" groups at 60 yards out of each barrel with that combination. Time to get to the regulation challenges!

I sighted the rifle in using the left barrel (it is the solid one--your right barrel is the one that adjusts). Then the fun regulating begins!!! My rifle (and they all seem to vary somewhat) would shoot both left/right groups level with the right/left groups spread about 5 inches. As I brought the groups together with the jack screw the right barrel would shoot lower. There was a vertical spread of 4 inches when the horizontal spread was together. I brought the barrels together with the jack screw then worked on the vertical spread.

Next---went to the hardware store and bought feeler gauges and started shimming the right barrel up. It is really a pretty simple process, but requires a lot of shooting to fine tune. To make a long story short, you just start inserting the various sized feeler gauges between the barrel and the band (from the rear) to force the right barrel to move the direction you need. Then shoot, then move the shim clockwise/counter clockwise, shoot again, try another shim, etc. until you get the right position and size shim. I ultimately ended up with the .005 gauge centered from about the 5:30 o'clock position. The .007 gauge was a little much, the .005 isn't quite enough. Perfect may have been a .006 in my rifle?? I didn't have a .001 so don't know. The .0015 with the .005 was too much. I used a Dremel tool with a fine cut-off wheel to the score the feeler gauge at the back end of the band and broke it off. You can just barely see the feeler gauge if you really inspect the band, but the average person wouldn't.

Honestly, I was tired of experimenting at this point. 2" regulation at 60 yards was good enough. It is probably better than I can hold in a shooting situation. I know for sure the rifle will now hit the target without "Kentucky windage" in a lethal spot if I do my part. It seemed as though each new change at this point would be a set-back.

I am happy now--thanks to all of you for your input. Idaho Sharpshooter, blanc, MrJudgeOC, jeffeosso. I now have a relatively in-expensive double rifle in 45/70 that I can both play with and use for some serious hunting.

I like the take down double rifle. It fits in my back-pack really well. I have hound hunted for 47 years here in the US and also guiding leopard hunts in Africa. I will use it to take both a bear and cougar this year. Also wouldn't hesitate to take it to Africa now and use it on the leopards when we catch them with the hounds. The 45/70 would work just fine when one of the leopards charges through the dogs to come after us!

Thanks to all for your encouragement and collective suggestions!! There is hope, it just takes work and experimenting.

Good hunting,
Jerry

Guys,

Forgot to mention another huge improvement, the recoil pad!! This rifle will kick the snot out of you with the factory pad after extended shooting and all the various combinations you will try.

I found the Decelerator pad from my Winchester M70 .458 Win fit it almost perfectly. So the pad left the M70 and is now on the 45/70.

The pad change will make a huge difference in your shoulder coloring! I much preferred the regular flesh color to the black/blue from the factory pad.

Good luck, have fun.
Jerry

Thanks Judge:

What I did to soften up the recoil pad was to take a drill bit the same diameter of the round holes in the factory pad. Used a hand drill and drilled out the middle re-enforcing rib. Took all of 10 min. Now it is almost as soft as the Decelerator I have on my 450 Marlin.

m3taco,

This is one of the valuable aspects of this forum. The various participants all can share ideas and come up with a collective winner!!

Thanks, I am going to try that.
Jerry

Just shot another 50 rounds through mine yesterday, getting it sighted in for bear and possibly Texas deer and hogs at X-Mas. Have to wait for cooling off time to shoot that much. Just can't get the 300 gr JHP to do better than 2-3" groups, about 4" apart at 50 yards.

The dream load for my gun, however, is a plain old factory 405 right now. The right barrel puts them all in one ragged hole an inch to the right of the bull and the left is a 1 1/2" group an inch to the left.

I can't see better than that with the stock front sight, to try at 100 yards and don't want to bother scoping it. About the only change I'd consider would be a front bead and rear peep.

I have only adjusted the barrel jackscrew a little, drilled out the same holes in the recoil pad, and I had to turn down my front sight about 3 full turns. Voila!!!! Shoots like a ton of bricks now, and has really made range time fun again. Yeah, the triggers still suck but at least I'm shooting a double rifle.

Judge:

I really can’t take any credit for the drilled recoil pad idea – actually “discovered” this somewhere else (just don’t remember where) and tried it on one of my Marlin 45-70’s. Shot the drilled out one side by side with an undrilled one on another 45-70 Marlin and a Declerator on my 450M with the same heavy hand loads and the 450M with equivalent bullet/powder hand loads. In a T-shirt and from the bench could tell a big difference between the undrilled one and the drilled one and the Decelerator - could not tell any difference between the drilled out one and the Decelerator.

The Marlins had the triangular “ventilated” looking pads. Just used a combination of a Dremel tool and some very small flat and triangle files to take the mid reinforcing rib out and make them really ventilated and much softer on the shoulder. Huge improvement shooting my heavy hand loads - in the load data tables they just touch on edge of starting/minimum loads in .458 Win Mag.

Blank:

The first hundred or so rounds miscellaneous weights/charges I tried with mine when I first got it were 300gr JHP, 300gr cast and factory 405s. I didn’t really try to “regulate” it at the time but was just having a blast (pun intended) shooting it. I was a bit disappointed/discouraged at the “scatter gun” pattern and just cleaned it and put it away because I didn’t have the time (at the time) to commit to trying to sort it out. There were a couple of bullet/charge combos that were definitely better than others. In the mean time, a few others lead the way and have worked out many of the bugs on theirs. Last Friday’s session with the 375 and 425 cast w/GC really showed some definite promise by the time I finished. I was very happy with the 50yd groups I was getting. The left barrel basically a single 1” 1 1/4” ragged hole) and the right barrel was maybe 2”- 2 ½” stringing left to right. I attribute this to the REALLY hard right barrel trigger pull. There was the previously mentioned vertical split between the left and right barrels.

Once I get mine back from the GS and see what kind of voodoo he can do with the triggers, I’ll decide how I want to tackle the vertical regulation. I see merit in both “twisting” and “shimming”. Unless the shims are soldered or glued in place it might leave a possibility of the shims either shifting or falling out. If they are soldered/glued in, if you change loads significantly and have to re-regulate it could add complications.

Twisting (the application of brute force – (always the military way ) on the face of it seems simple and effective and easily repeatable if required. It does add a thought though as to how these rifles will withstand some limited rough use, ie. truck gun, airline baggage handlers etc. (note to self – remember to include large monkey wrench in gun case for next trip to Africa ). As you can see, I clearly see enough merit in it to intend to take it on my next PG hunt and as my primary shooter this fall.

Thanks to those who are leading the fine tuning!

Just a note, with a Butler Creek slip on recoil pad, she does have a lot better length of pull. She wears a size small in the Butler Creek brand for any one interested in ordering one off line. No range report yet, as this weekend was the opening weekend of dove season, so I went hunting instead of shooting. Maybe this weekend will be more productive.

Also this weekend I put a old leather QD sling on it just to be able to carry it around. After reading the post about a slings degrading ablity on accuracy when used as a stabilizer, I put on a sling that is easy to take off quietly. And you know what, the screw that holds the swivel to the stud came out. Went in the parts bin and installed an Uncle Mike's set in the rear. Will have to use a Dremel on the front stud assembly to widen out the hole that a regular Uncle Mike's QD swivel will fit in.

quote:

Originally posted by m3taco:
5. Pressure/Load data – seems to be a lot of speculation on what it can be loaded to. Mine has a 2200 BAR limit printed on the left barrel. Goggle search of “Convert BAR to PSI” turns up a nice little conversion table Convertion Calculator that says 2200 BAR equals 31908.36 PSI. This is considerably above “Trapdoor” level loads and according to my reloading manual, put this into the “Modern Lever Rifle” pressures.

Again, that isn't correct. SAAMI max average pressure for the .45/70 is 28,000 CUP. CIP's max average for the .45/70 is the same as SAAMI's - 2200 BAR/31,900 PSI. Same pressure, entirely different units of measurement. Remington understood this, knew there would be confusion, and posted on their web site that these rifles were proved for SAAMI STANDARD .45/70 ammunition (28,000 CUP) ONLY. They know what they're talking about.

SAAMI pressures in CUP or PSI are completely different units of pressure measurement (using entirely different protocols) from CIP CUP (crusher BAR x 14.50375 = CUP) or CIP PSI (piezo BAR x 14.50375 = PSI). Like miles per hour vs kilometers per hour, they're different units used to measure the same thing, but are not interchangeable. Unfortunately, they're not readily convertible either.
-------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

400 NE:

Thanks for the explanation – got me digging into this a bit deeper. Did some searching on the Remington web site and didn’t find any info on the Spartan/Baikal double rifles at all. Also checked my owner’s manual and there was no specific limit mentioned in it either. Not intending to cast any doubt on your information in any way. I did find SAAMI limits on 45-70 as you state, but could not find any Remington/Spartan/Baikal documents that specifically limit the SPR 22 in 45-70 to 28K. Not saying it doesn’t exist, just I couldn’t find it. All I can find for specific printed max is what is actually on the barrel of the rifle. Clearly the confusion results in the definition of PSI/CUP.

Maybe this is why Remington stopped bringing them in under their name. Would have been better maybe if they would have engraved on the barrels “For Trapdoor Level Loads Only” instead of the “2200 BAR/31900 HST” (yes, HST is printed on mine –whatever the hell that is). This would have also correlated to the way reloading manuals divide the three 45-70 loading levels into “Trapdoor”, Modern Lever, and Modern Rifle”

For all us average Joe’s (most of the population) would never take the time to even try to look up any info – we see a gun we like in a caliber we like and buy ammo that correlates to what is engraved on the barrel (most of the time ) – if it fits in it, pull the trigger and see what happens . The second level and significantly fewer number of average Joe’s (like me) might what to try to find out what the hell a BAR is and do a quick Internet search and come up with a simple explanation – like I did.

For those with enquiring minds who want an in-depth explanation of the PSI/CUP stuff I did some more Goggle searching and found this link Shooters Forum. Yes, I know for all the Double Rifle purists it is to a lowly “lever centric” site but, if you look about half way down the page to a posting by “Ranch Dog” on 10-16-2005, he has some formulas for converting CUP to PSI and there is also a link to a white paper – “Correlating PSI and Cup by Denton Branwell” that takes you through the whole thing – made my simple head hurt. IF you can take the math discussions, there are also some pretty good additional embedded links to follow in the three additional pages of discussion.

Guess the bottom line on the SPR22 is “Trapdoor Level Loads Only” applies to the general average Joe public and for those who reload and want to push the limits a bit, all the standard reloading rules and disclaimers apply.