Does anyone have any experience with Krieghoff's new .500/.416? I see that brass is finally becoming available from both Horneber and Jamison. How about load data? Is there any readily availible load data for this cartridge?

As far as I know, it is only available in a Krieghoff double. Do you think it will succeed?

Dave

Dave I have had my Kreighoff in 500/416 for several years now. I have had no problems obtaining brass and dies. Kreighoff has load data for the caliber and I, as well as several people on this forum, have experience loading for this gun. As to whether it will succeed, I really don't care. If you want a double rifle, and think the the 416 Rigby is the cats meow, then the 500/416 is the only game in town.
Peter.

Peter is right great caliber. I have been toying with the idea of a Blaser S2 in a 500-416 the one I shot was accurate and felt good. I dont like the way it cocks is the only thing.

As far as I know K guns and Blaser are the only mass makers. I'm sure any of the custom makers will do one for you though.

Ed

It makes an excellent single shot also. I'm building a Fraser repro in 500/416. If Ruger #1s came in 416 Rem, I think it would be an easy rechamber and extrator mod. Why, I don't know because they perform the same. But that long 3-1/4" case is really sexy. Searcy advertises one model in "416 Flanged Nitro" which I doubt is the same but may be another flanged 416 option. Anyone know of it?

I am very happy with my Krighoff in this calibre! It works!

It's a good cartridge. Highest pressure of the over .40 flanged nitros, and factory ammo is loaded right up against CIP MAP, so don't try to make it something that it isn't. It equals original .416 Rigby standard, but not current. I found it straightforward to load for, but don't like the rifles made for it.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

original .416 Rigby standard, but not current.

400NE, help me out please. What is the difference? I always thought: 400 grain bullet at 2400 fps. Is that standard or current?
Peter.

I owned one for 4 years and recently sold it to a guy who will get more use out of it than I ever would. They are trim rifles, great safety, very accurate, good cartridge with plenty of velocity for cats and plainsgame and plenty of energy and penetration for dangerous game. I killed an elephant with one shot, used it to back up on another elephant, killed two bovines with a neat left and a right and killed an eland at about 80 yards. I packed it for miles and miles in Africa and it carried very well also. I think it is a perfect rifle and caliber for a client, especially one who is just getting into double rifles.

Perry

Peter:

No, 2400 fps has never been standard for either. The original ballistics for the .416 Rigby were a 410 grain bullet at 2371 fps, but that was from a long pressure barrel. For original Kynoch ammo in a 24" Mag Mauser, 2250 fps was the reality. Seems most folks these days expect 2400 fps in 24" barrels, a substantial step up. Kynoch currently loads it to 2300 fps, but that's in a 26" barrel.

Krieghoff's .500/.416 is CIP standardized at a MAP of 3150 BAR, or 45,687 PSI - that's the standard that the rifles are proved for. Their factory ammo is loaded balls to the wall. They list it at 2330 fps at 44,962 PSI, or 3100 BAR. However, that velocity is from 25.5" barrels - in other words, it isn't supposed to do that in the 23.5" tubes that the rifles come with. Their factory ammo is loaded by Wolfgang Romey with blended (duplex loading), non-canister grade propellants to keep the pressure down (so is Kynoch's). For the handloader with single, canister grade propellants....

I shot up several batches of their factory ammo with a new Krieghoff, over a chrono. As I expected from 23.5" barrels, average velocity was 2260 or so. Handloads with 107.5 grains H1000 gave 410 Woodleighs 2260 or so with fine regulation. The regulation went to hell with higher velocities.

I think horsing another 140 fps instrumental out of it would take the pressure up closer to proof than I care to ever be with a double rifle.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

400 Nitro:

In a large caliber like a .500/.416, how much velocity do you think you lose per inch of barrel?

Dave

I think 25 fps is a good average. Sometimes more, sometimes less.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

In my above post where I said of the .416 Rigby:

quote:

For original Kynoch ammo in a 24" Mag Mauser, 2250 fps was the reality.

...I should have added:

"And that was enough to make it a world-class legend for use on dangerous game, despite the fact that the rifles were actually quite rare until long after WWII."
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

Originally posted by 400 Nitro Express:
Peter:

No, 2400 fps has never been standard for either. The original ballistics for the .416 Rigby were a 410 grain bullet at 2371 fps, but that was from a long pressure barrel. For original Kynoch ammo in a 24" Mag Mauser, 2250 fps was the reality. Seems most folks these days expect 2400 fps in 24" barrels, a substantial step up. Kynoch currently loads it to 2300 fps, but that's in a 26" barrel.

Krieghoff's .500/.416 is CIP standardized at a MAP of 3150 BAR, or 45,687 PSI - that's the standard that the rifles are proved for. Their factory ammo is loaded balls to the wall. They list it at 2330 fps at 44,962 PSI, or 3100 BAR. However, that velocity is from 25.5" barrels - in other words, it isn't supposed to do that in the 23.5" tubes that the rifles come with. Their factory ammo is loaded by Wolfgang Romey with blended (duplex loading), non-canister grade propellants to keep the pressure down (so is Kynoch's). For the handloader with single, canister grade propellants....

I shot up several batches of their factory ammo with a new Krieghoff, over a chrono. As I expected from 23.5" barrels, average velocity was 2260 or so. Handloads with 107.5 grains H1000 gave 410 Woodleighs 2260 or so with fine regulation. The regulation went to hell with higher velocities.

I think horsing another 140 fps instrumental out of it would take the pressure up closer to proof than I care to ever be with a double rifle.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

You mean they proof the load at 3350 bar but load their rounds to 3300 bar? Not much of a proof load!

Load them mothers up to 2400 fps. If it gets loose after 10,000 rounds, buy a new one.

As to the doubles it comes in, I think the big K and Blaser are the only two I've seen advertised. Are there any more?

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
You mean they proof the load at 3350 bar but load their rounds to 3300 bar? Not much of a proof load!

Bill, you clearly didn't read my post before responding. You also clearly did not understand the technical terms used. Perhaps you should look them first before responding.

quote:

Load them mothers up to 2400 fps. If it gets loose after 10,000 rounds, buy a new one.

One of the most ignorant and irresponsible posts I've read here in a while. You're beginning to rival Shootaway.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Okay, a typo. It (3150-3100 bar) still ain't much of a proof load.

If anyone listened to you guys stuck in the past, they'd have their bullets barely falling out of the barrel.

Now William, that won't do. Your "typo" wasn't the half of it, and you don't know enough to even know that. Your lack of knowledge still shines through.

CIP MAP (aka PTmax) is the maximum AVERAGE chamber pressure that CIP permits for factory ammunition in a given caliber to be legally sold - in this case 3150 BAR. When MAP for a specific cartridge is provided, there is no need to give the proof pressure for it in order for it to be immediately understood, because it is already known. BY DEFINITION, CIP proof pressure (PE - the legally mandated mean pressure of proof cartridges for that caliber) is 125% of MAP - 3940 BAR in this case, or 57,145 PSI. In other words, PTmax defines PE - a legally mandated 25% safety margin. All double rifles built today in Britain and Europe are proved to this standard. Sooo...your statement:

quote:

You mean they proof the load at 3150 BAR but load their rounds to 3100 bar? Not much of a proof load!

...reflects a lack of a basic understanding of the matter, even after adjustment for the "typo".

quote:

Load them mothers up to 2400 fps.

...is even worse. At the upper end of the power curve, an extra 100 fps takes a lot of extra pressure, and we're talking about 140. A professional ballistician I know distills it, (only when pressed), to very roughly 6000 PSI for another 100 fps. So for 140...sounds like maybe within a few thousand PSI of PROOF pressure. In any case, the pressure would certainly badly exceed MAP. That's beyond stupid in a double rifle, especially one that already gives sparkling performance with standard loads and is worth having to begin with.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder.

Gentlemen, I can assure you an @ 40 cal bullet at @2100 to 2200fps will do all that is necessary on DG.

Those doubles at high velocity (2400 FPS) recoil equal to a .470, so I opted for the .470 for a few years, Now I am back to my all time favorite the 450-400-3" and I can't tell any difference in it, as far as killing power goes, than my 416 Rem.

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
As to the doubles it comes in, I think the big K and Blaser are the only two I've seen advertised. Are there any more?

Westley has made a few I think, and I'm sure some of the other upper end makers have as well.

The .500/.416 is a nice round, but is still new as double rifle rounds go. Other makers may well pick it up in time. The open question is, with the popularity of the .450/.400s rising rapidly, and the guns bringing premiums, will the makers on the fence pick up the .400, as Heym has, or the .416?

The worst obstacle for the .500/.416 is the perception that it kicks just as hard as the .470. I didn't find that to be true, but I'm not very recoil sensitive.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

I shot PWN's 500/416 Krieghpff, and saw several others shoot it, it was very accurate.

Also I shot 2 other 470 Krieghoff's and they too shot very well.

quote:

Originally posted by 400 Nitro Express:

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
As to the doubles it comes in, I think the big K and Blaser are the only two I've seen advertised. Are there any more?

Westley has made a few I think, and I'm sure some of the other upper end makers have as well.

The .500/.416 is a nice round, but is still new as double rifle rounds go. Other makers may well pick it up in time. The open question is, with the popularity of the .450/.400s rising rapidly, and the guns bringing premiums, will the makers on the fence pick up the .400, as Heym has, or the .416?

The worst obstacle for the .500/.416 is the perception that it kicks just as hard as the .470. I didn't find that to be true, but I'm not very recoil sensitive.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

The few folks I know that shoot it wouldn't disagree about the recoil but they appreciate how much farther it reaches, all else equal. But I have no idea how that difference plays out on the world double rifle market compared to South Texas where range matters.

I shot a Blaser in a 500-416 it was very comfortable to shoot. It did kick less than my 470 but I think it weighed about a pound more. Still it was less

505ED

searcy used to offer it as a chambering some years ago. don't know if he still does or would on request.

where does one get this " factory ammo " ? i thought this was just a handload deal.

Tomo...Kreighoff makes "factory" ammo, or at least, their name is on the box. Having said that who shoots factory ammo in their large bore doubles? Who shoots factory ammo in their 416 Rigby?
Peter.

quote:

Originally posted by tomo577:
where does one get this " factory ammo " ? i thought this was just a handload deal.

No. The .500/.416 was a factory/CIP standardized cartridge from it's introduction in 1991. It's German, so it had to be. Ammo has always been available from Krieghoff. Krieghoff's factory ammo is loaded in Germany by Wolfgang Romey, who also loads Westley Richards ammunition line, as well as some of Holland & Holland's.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

Originally posted by 400 Nitro Express:

quote:

Load them mothers up to 2400 fps. If it gets loose after 10,000 rounds, buy a new one.

One of the most ignorant and irresponsible posts I've read here in a while. You're beginning to rival Shootaway.

Mark
he's also advocating loading 458 winmag to max loads and trying to get 2200fps with 500gr bullets out of it, but "isn't a reloader, so he doesn't care about pressure"

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
I don't reload them so I don't care about primer pockets, even if that is true.

Will's reply to being "schoolled" on pressure signs
He won't get that the last 100FPS is critically expensive even in a bolt gun, and has no chance of understanding what a double rifle is and isn't.

of course, the "wizards" at merkel, offering the 416 rigby in a double, don't help matters

jeffe

Jeffe:


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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

One can shoot 375 H&H, 458 WM, 416 Rigby, etc. in a double but not a lower pressure 500/416 with a 400 gr bullet at 2400 fps?

And indeed a 400 gr bullet at 2400 fps is the same muzzle energy as a 410 gr. bullet at 2370 fps.

I am still waiting to see pics of all these worn out doubles from shooting them at "high pressures."

Not sure what world you guys live in.

quote:

Originally posted by 400 Nitro Express:
Now William, that won't do. Your "typo" wasn't the half of it, and you don't know enough to even know that....
CIP MAP (.. When MAP for a specific cartridge is provided, there is no need to give the proof pressure for it in order for it to be immediately understood, because it is already known. BY DEFINITION, CIP proof pressure (PE - the legally mandated mean pressure of proof cartridges for that caliber) is 125% of MAP - 3940 BAR in this case, or 57,145 PSI.

Mark
your first paragraph, regarding not know what he doesn't know, is clear and reinforced by NOT KNOWING that a cip proof load is 125% ... from there, it just goes in the ditch

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
One can shoot 375 H&H, 458 WM, 416 Rigby, etc. in a double but not a lower pressure 500/416 with a 400 gr bullet at 2400 fps?

And indeed a 400 gr bullet at 2400 fps is the same muzzle energy as a 410 gr. bullet at 2370 fps.

I am still waiting to see pics of all these worn out doubles from shooting them at "high pressures."

Not sure what world you guys live in.

Cue "Twilight Zone" music. This statement is so ignorant that it doesn't merit further response.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

saw a quote for a heym in 500/416 today they say no problem to make it.