Not trying to stir up the rimmed/rimless/belted debate.

I know there are lots of 375 belted DRs out there, but wanted to know if any fourm members have double rifles in 416 Rigby?

If so, what has your experience been with them?

There is a reason that the .416 Rigby double always on the bargain rack.

merkel made (makes?) these... at one point, it was the cheapest merkel DR in a big bore...

if *I* stumbled over one for the right price, I would rechamber to 500/416.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
if *I* stumbled over one for the right price, I would rechamber to 500/416.

Geez, Jeffe. Did the whole world really need to know that you like your chambers really sloppy?

I'm sure you know that you'd have to sleeve the chambers to do that.
-----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

mark.. you said sloppy...

I had a 416 Rigby Belgium double that came with a German scope. It was my favorite dougle. It was an ejector and I shot hand loads that were traveling about 2350 fps with 400 grain bullets. It regulated well. I took it to Tanzania and shot quite a bot of game with it. Never had a problem; unfortunately it was stolen. This was a great cartridege for a double in spite of what one reads about the need for a rimmed case.

Sorry about the stolen rifle.

Did you use just a scope and/or iron sights?

It's been said before but gunmakers have been making what the customer wants for a long time. I think the oldest DR in rimless that I ever noticed somehwere was a 375 H&H made in the teens or twenties. It may even have been a H&H gun. Haven't we all noticed high priced guns by the top makers in rimless? It still shoots those 2 rounds just as fast as a rimmed gun. For a client I don't see how it's a problem any more.

I'd never partake myself, though, ever. I REALLY would like a 500/416!

There's only one thing wrong with a double rifle chambered for a rimless, or belted rimless cartridge, that is to be used to hunt bite-backs! It is the phrase "OH SHIT!"that comes out of the owner's mouth, when the thing doesn't eject, or fails to extract, with a Buffalo coming to do you harm! TRUE, it may never happen to you, but I don't go out in an open field when lightening is in the air, and I don't hunt Buffalo, with push feed rifles, or doubles with rimless chambers! Others may do as it suits them!

quote:

Originally posted by Dr L. S. Wirthlin:
I had a 416 Rigby Belgium double that came with a German scope. It was my favorite dougle. It was an ejector and I shot hand loads that were traveling about 2350 fps with 400 grain bullets. It regulated well. I took it to Tanzania and shot quite a bot of game with it. Never had a problem; unfortunately it was stolen. This was a great cartridege for a double in spite of what one reads about the need for a rimmed case.

Chalk up another faultless rimless DR used successfully in the field. Seems they work better in the field for hunters actually hunting than they do in armchairs for those who are not hunting.

JPK

JPK,

If it floats your boat then set sail. You are welcome to use any rifle you want.

Just as I am welcome to not use a rimless double for DG.

But there is no reason to go around insinuating that we who choose not to are "armchair" hunters. That is just plain old ignorant!

Your's is a .458 win right?

Surestrike,

The insinuation isn't that those fellows who use double rifles chambered for rimmed cartridges don't hunt and so are only armchair hunters.

The insinuation is that those loathed double rifles chambered for rimless cartridges actually have been successful in the field and on DG to boot. They seem to fail often when used in those armchairs though.

JPK

Ok! I am an idiot to even participate in this endless debate but I had a 458 double once that I shot quite a bit and never had a minutes problem with it. I think that a 416 Rigby Double would make a wonderful rifle. The fact is this, in fantasy land where all the gargoyles, lions, tigers, bears, elephants and things that go bump in the night are all high on PCP and wearing ceramic plates over their vital areas some how some day if you shot a thousand or so of these demons rimmed verses rimless may ,just slightly, have some impact. But in the real world would it ever make a difference?????? The answer ( tada!) is simple just ask the question. There are thousands of people on this site. There is lots and lots of experience here Probably more than any place on the planet.


Has anyone here ever been in a charge situation with a double rifle where a non rimed cartridge made any difference at all?

quote:

Originally posted by els:
Has anyone here ever been in a charge situation with a double rifle where a non rimed cartridge made any difference at all?

I doubt you'll get an answer - if there were such a situation, they would probably not be able to respond from the grave.

Seriously, the issue boils down to one of extraction. Rimmed cartridges are easier to extract in the event of a ejector failure or a pressure problem. And most of the comments favoring rimmed cases come from guys who believe in eliminating variables from the dangerous game equation.

Granted a non rimmed shooting rifle may never experience a problem. That is particularly true with the better made doubles like the Thys JPK uses. But there are many makers that do not build to such stringent tolerances.

It is not that failures are common. It is that it is a possibility in the event of extreme pressure, heat, dirt or Mr. Murphy showing his hand. Like I said, it is a variable. You can choose to eliminate it or trust the rifle maker.

Just for kicks, I'll respond. Yes I have been in a charge situation where having a double rifle shooting rimless ammo was a factor. But not in the way that anyone would think. It was a factor because I was at the end of my safari and very low on solids for elephants. But I had an opportunity to extend my trip to try for an additional elephant. I was able to barrow five rounds of 458wm solid ammo from a PH, since it is common in safari areas. I barrowed the ammo and went elephant hunting and was charged and stopped the charge. I used up the last of my own ammo killing that elephant and never used the barrowed ammo, but I wouldn't have gone into the bush without it.

Also, Jim Manion makes a point about dirt and dust. While I have tried to make my rifle fail and have been unsuccessful in the effort, I take caution to make sure the chambers and ejection system are clean and free of dust and dirt. I would do the same with a rimmed cartridge rifle, but maybe not with the attention, even after a long, hot day on tracks, that I do with my rifle.

JPK

That's about what I expected.

I know of a few experiences one of which was mine, wherein the extractors or ejectors have over ridden the rimless rounds and that is basically a permenently disabled firearm in the bush....This is the main problem with rimless rounds in a double rifle..

I might also add that these rimless rounds create a lot more pressure than rimmed rounds, and that is why many of them have been eliminated from production over the years.

I would never in a million years own a double rifle that did not shoot a rimmed cartridge....

However, I don't mind someone else using them as long as they have been forewarned....

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:

I might also add that these rimless rounds create a lot more pressure than rimmed rounds, and that is why many of them have been eliminated from production over the years.

Ray, that may well be true of a double in .375 H&H but it is not true of a double in .416 Rigby. Sane handloads in a Rigby operate at 38,080 PSI. That's less pressure than your average 30-30 Winchester.

If you are going to get a double in a rimless cartridge, the .416 Rigby is the one to buy and, because everyone prefers the rimmed cartridges, you can usually get them at quite a bargain. However, you will pay on the back side if you ever decide to sell it.

I think it would be cool to have a nice Rigby bolt gun and a double in that caliber to compliment it. Two rifles using the same ammo is not a bad idea. Shoot your buff with the scoped bolt and use the double for any follow up.

Dave

quote:

Originally posted by els:
There are thousands of people on this site. There is lots and lots of experience here Probably more than any place on the planet.


Has anyone here ever been in a charge situation with a double rifle where a non rimed cartridge made any difference at all?

I'll ask you a better question! Including you, how many here, has ever been charged, by a dangerous game animal, while using any kind of rifle? Additionally, if you have, did you do everything as you would have on your firing range at home? I didn't think so!

People make mistakes when under stressful situations. Anything that is questionable will likely fail under these conditions, more than any other time. I simply don't see the need to test it when it is so easy to simply avoid the pit falls of what I consider to be an inferior design.

As I've said, I couldn't care less what anyone else uses, but when asked, for my recommendation, I will always recommend, what I believe to be the best, and safest system, to the person asking. There will always be opposing views, but that doesn't make me wrong, and the oposition right. However, the person asking is free to take which ever advice he chooses! I don't see the need for the personal digs, simply because you disagree with a person's position on any subject! Why not simply "say I disagree", and state you opinion, and if you have any, the reasons you disagree! I think the question origenally asked, would be better answered!

I think we are talking past each other.

Is Mac right? Well, yes. I think it is the pretty universally held view that in a double, low pressure rimmed cartridges are to be PREFERRED but I am not at all sure that means that SOME rimless cartridges, expecially low pressure rounds like the .416 Rigby, won't work just fine for the citizen hunter.

C'mon guys...we shoot all kinds of rimmed, rimless, and belted rounds in are Ruger No.1's without any extraction problems. In a .416 Rigby, pressures are so modest, I can't believe there would be any extraction problems. Has anyone had or has a double in .416 Rigby? How did it work? There is a Merkel double for sale on the GunsAmerica site and it has been there forever. I bet a guy could just about steal it.

Dave

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Ray, that may well be true of a double in .375 H&H but it is not true of a double in .416 Rigby. Sane handloads in a Rigby operate at 38,080 PSI. That's less pressure than your average 30-30 Winchester.

That certainly isn't true with current factory ammo, which is loaded to the eyes in .416. Both cartridges have a CIP MAP of 3250 BAR, vs 2700 for the .470 and 2800 for .450/.400.

I agree with Ray and Mac. I've had numerous failures to extract with several high quality rimless doubles. I can't see paying what good quality doubles cost and then handicapping them with what is clearly an inferior cartridge design for DR applications. Like Mac said, the issue is simply and cheaply avoided.
----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

Originally posted by 400 Nitro Express:

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Ray, that may well be true of a double in .375 H&H but it is not true of a double in .416 Rigby. Sane handloads in a Rigby operate at 38,080 PSI. That's less pressure than your average 30-30 Winchester.

That certainly isn't true with current factory ammo, which is loaded to the eyes in .416. Both cartridges have a CIP MAP of 3250 BAR, vs 2700 for the .470 and 2800 for .450/.400.

I agree with Ray and Mac. I've had numerous failures to extract with several high quality rimless doubles. I can't see paying what good quality doubles cost and then handicapping them with what is clearly an inferior cartridge design for DR applications. Like Mac said, the issue is simply and cheaply avoided.
----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Sorry guy, I guess I was talking about the .416 Rigby handloads to original specs and not factory ammo. The Rigby was originally loaded to about 2350 fps with a .410 grain bullet. That translates to about 17 long tons which is just about the same as Rigby's .450 NE or the 450/.400 NE 3 1/4. The Rigby was NOT a high pressure round in it's original guise but I confess I don't know how it is loaded from the factory.

You said that you have had "numerous failures to extract with several high quality rimless doubles." Could you be a bit more specific? How many is "numerous"? What calibers and what kind of rifles were you using? Was it a .416?

Dave

Yeah, I suppose we really are talking past each other, because there seem to be some points that you've missed.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Sorry guy, I guess I was talking about the .416 Rigby handloads to original specs and not factory ammo.

Outside of the US, new double rifles, like the Merkel you mentioned, are regulated with current factory ammo. Handloaded down from that standard, the rifle may very well not regulate.

quote:

The Rigby was originally loaded to about 2350 fps with a .410 grain bullet.

...out of a 28" pressure barrel - which was typically 2,250 fps from a 24" Mag Mauser. That's what a .500/.416 Flanged does from 23.6" barrels.

quote:

That translates to about 17 long tons

I see. So THAT'S where you came up with:

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Sane handloads in a Rigby operate at 38,080 PSI.

...so you thought 17 long tons = 17 X 2240 = 38,080 PSI, which isn't correct. It's 38,080 BaseCUP, not PSI. "Tons" isn't chamber pressure, and it isn't referred to in PSI. It's 17 long tons of bolt thrust - an axial measurement using the BaseCUP yardstick. Rifle cartridge chamber pressures were once stated in CUP (radial copper crusher) and are now stated in PSI (radial piezo electric transducer). The British never measured chamber pressure, they measured bolt thrust using base copper crusher guns (BaseCUP) instead, and rendered the result in long "tons".

"Tons" isn't chamber pressure (which CUP and PSI are), nor is it convertible to it.

The British rated the .416 at 18 tons, not 17.

quote:

c'mon guys...we shoot all kinds of rimmed, rimless, and belted rounds in are Ruger No. 1's without any extraction problems.

A Ruger No. 1, isn't a double.

quote:

There is a Merkel double for sale on the GunsAmerica site and it has been there forever. I bet a guy could just about steal it.

Yep it's been there for a long time for a reason. Don't offer too much. The last one I saw trade didn't make $5000.

quote:

You said that you have had "numerous failures to extract with several high quality rimless doubles." Could you be a bit more specific? How many is "numerous"? What calibers and what kind of rifles were you using? Was it a .416?

Westley Richards "Gold Name" boxlock 9.3X62 Rimless. RWS and Norma factory loads, handloads in both RWS and Norma cases, plus handloads in cases formed from .30/06. Extraction failures due to extractor slipping over case head; some cases would extract but not fully eject. Best guess is that extraction/ejection failure ran just under 50% out of a couple of hundred rounds fired. This rifle had just been worked over by the maker in the UK for this problem, and was subsequently serviced again in the US with no improvement.

Westley Richards Best Droplock .318 WR Rimless. Mint gun showing almost no use. Only had one range session with this one. Fired about 20 rounds of factory Kynoch before sending this turkey back due to several extraction failures.

We had an extraction bobble with a Chapuis .375 H & H at our last DRSS event.

Within SAAMI and CIP pressure limits, pressure has little to do with rimless extraction problems in doubles.
----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
C'mon guys...we shoot all kinds of rimmed, rimless, and belted rounds in are Ruger No.1's without any extraction problems. .

Dave

Dave, respectfully, a Ruger No1 is not a double rifle! You are correct that the Ruger No1 has about zero extraction, and ejection problems, no matter the type of cartridge chambered in it! Now, if a double rifle was fitted with the same design extractor, as the Ruger No1, then the problems with, not only the extraction/ejection, but with the loading as well, would be illeminated!

This is the reason the No1 doesn't have problems with extraction, "OR" loading of the chamber. The No1's falling block cams the extractor pall completely out of the way of the cartridge, when it is bottomed out on opening. The ejector is powered by very strong springs, and is basically a spring steel coin that can flex side ways into a recess in the side of the action body, completely out of the way of the new cartridge dropping into the empty chamber, all the way to it's seated depth. This isn't the case with the tiny palls for rimless cartridges in a double rifle, which remain up, interfering with chambering, and in most cases the cartridges must be forced into the chambers, because these palls are in the way when the rifle is broken open. The problem with this is, when loaded in a hurry, sometimes the cartridges are not pushed over the one or both palls, and when the rifle is slammed closed, the tiny pall is broken off without the shooter being aware of it till it is time to reload, and the empties are still in the chambers. Additionally, the little chunk of steel broken off the pall, can be jammed between the face of the breach, and the back of the brass cartridge, locking the rifle in a closed position.

These things don't happen with the No1, because the lever being lifted to close the action has a very strong camming effect, that pushes the extractor forward, and releases it directly into the extraction groove of the cartridge, so it doesn't have to snap over the rim at any time during the loading process.

If some one would design an extractor/ejector the same way for a break-top double, the largest amount of the problem with rimless cartridges in a double would be eliminated. Unfortunately nobody, today, makes a double that way.

As 400 told you, he has experienced them, and I've seen many failures to extract, or eject, and jams of actions on double rifle with chambers for rimless cartridges, over the last 50 or 60 years. Enough that I, like many other long time users of S/S double rifles, have formed a bias against rimless, and belted rimless cartridges in double rifles, that are intended for DGR duty. On deer double rifles it make little difference, however!

As I've said all along don't shoot the messenger, simply because you don't like, or agree with the message!

400 Nitro Express:

I am going to defer to you here. I think that you have way more experience with this topic than I. However, I am not sure that I would say that because you ran into two doubles that didn't work correctly really quailifies as "numerous" failures to extract. I know lots of guys who have had trouble getting this or that bolt rifle to feed correctly. That hardly means that bolt rifles won't handle rimless rounds, right?

The following is a quote from my Hodgdon Powder Manual (26th ed.), page 462:

"The original British manufactured Kynoch factory load contained Cordite, a propellent which was reputed to be quite sensitve to extremes in temperature commonly encountered in tropical clmates. For this reason, maximum chamber pressure for Rigby's .416 was held at 17 long tons, or 38,080 pounds per square inch."

I checked some current ammo specs for the Rigby cartridge and they are all running around 2300-2400 fps. I know it can be loaded much hotter but even the factory stuff in not loaded to very high pressures. The .416 Rigby is a huge case that holds over 132 grains of water. Loaded to around 2300-2400 fps. it is NOT a high pressure round.

There is one point where we are going to have to "agree to disagree." You state that "pressure has little to do with rimless extraction problems in doubles." In fact, all the rifles you cited shot cartriedges of fairly high pressures (i.e. 9,3X62, .375 etc.) Perhaps there is a correlation.

Dave

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
However, I am not sure that I would say that because you ran into two doubles that didn't work correctly really quailifies as "numerous" failures to extract. I know lots of guys who have had trouble getting this or that bolt rifle to feed correctly. That hardly means that bolt rifles won't handle rimless rounds, right?

I don't agree at all. I've seen, and had reliable reports from guys I know well about a lot more than two. A bolt rifle that won't feed and extract reliably is just as dangerous as a double that won't extract. There is, however, a huge difference. Bolt rifles can be monkeyed with until they seem to feed and extract reliably, the degree of reliability limited by the skill of the gunsmith and the depth of your pockets. Extraction failures with doubles can be eliminated entirely, cheaply and easily - by chambering for a flanged shell. That simplicity and reliability is a big part of what makes the double worth the money. Chambering for a rimless shell negates that.

quote:

The following is a quote from my Hodgdon Powder Manual (26th ed.), page 462:

quote:

"The original British manufactured Kynoch factory load contained Cordite, a propellent which was reputed to be quite sensitve to extremes in temperature commonly encountered in tropical clmates. For this reason, maximum chamber pressure for Rigby's .416 was held at 17 long tons, or 38,080 pounds per square inch."

The British were unique in their use of the base crusher system, and virtually nobody else in the world ever really understood it, so it isn't surprising that Hodgden didn't understand it either. Their passage is wrong in it's entirety. Again, the British measured rifle pressures axially only. Chamber pressure is measured radially. The standard for the .416 was 18 tons, not 17. You can find it on the Kynoch web page.

quote:

I checked some current ammo specs for the Rigby cartridge and they are all running around 2300-2400 fps.

Right, most are from 24" barrels, or about 50 to 150 fps hotter than the original standard. Kynoch currently loads it to 2,300 fps, but that's in a 26" barrel.

quote:

There is one point where we are going to have to "agree to disagree." You state that "pressure has little to do with rimless extraction problems in doubles." In fact, all the rifles you cited shot cartriedges of fairly high pressures (i.e. 9,3X62, .375 etc.)

Nah. The .375 is high pressure, but the 9.3 and .318 aren't. The 9.3 has a max average of 3900 BAR, or 56,564 PSI. The .318 is limited to 3300 BAR or 47,862 PSI. The .416 Rigby has a CIP max average of 3250 BAR or 47,137 PSI, virtually the same as the .318. I don't think that there is any correlation at all.
----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

There is the 500/416, the 450/400 and even the 416 Chapuis, in or around the .416 caliber, all rimmed low pressure cartridges made for double barrel express rifles. Why would anyone want to choose the rimless 416 Rigby over any of the above?

quote:

Originally posted by Wink:
There is the 500/416, the 450/400 and even the 416 Chapuis, in or around the .416 caliber, all rimmed low pressure cartridges made for double barrel express rifles. Why would anyone want to choose the rimless 416 Rigby over any of the above?

Wink:

AzGuys original question at the beginning of this thread was whether anyone had any experience with a .416 Rigby double. So far, no one has said they have one. They are available and can be had at a substantial discount because nobody seems to want a rimless cartridge double. Like everyone else, If I were going to pop for a new double, I would pick a rimmed cartridge too...a 9,3X74 or a perhaps a 450/.400 but I would not walk away from a good deal on a .416 Rigby either. In fact, the .416 Rigby is the ONLY rimless double cartridge I would consider becasue it is such a low pressure round. I think having a bolt gun and a double shooting the same cartridge would be a big plus if you could get the Rigby to work in a double.

Dave

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
In fact, the .416 Rigby is the ONLY rimless double cartridge I would consider becasue it is such a low pressure round. I think having a bolt gun and a double shooting the same cartridge would be a big plus if you could get the Rigby to work in a double.

I understand what you're saying, but consider this:

The .416 Rigby was created and introduced by Rigby as a proprietary cartridge in 1911. Rigby, London built a lot of rifles over the ensuing 86 years, including the doubles that they were known for. Surprising as it is to some, considering it's legendary status today, the .416 was quite rare in the old days. In all the years Rigby was a British company, they built fewer than 200 .416s - about 150 by 1991. All but one were bolt rifles.

Rigby, London built only one .416 double - long ago at the insistance of a client with deep pockets, a maharaja. The creators of the cartridge clearly didn't think that a .416 Rigby double was a very good idea.
----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Mark

Do you have any links or sources of drawings of the British Base Cup system. A friend and I are working on a similar project.

Mike

Mike:

Depends on what you mean. Are you trying build a base crusher system?

I think I have a photo of one of the guns somewhere.

The best referrals I can give you are David Little at Kynoch, and Roger Hickox at the Birmingham Proof House. Both still have the old guns, and still use them, although the UK had to finally switch to the chamber pressure standard when they joined CIP in 1980.

Kynoch still tests with base crushers because that's what they load their ammo to, but must also test chamber pressure because that is CIP standard. Their guns are base crushers with sidewall piezo transducers. I think they've also worked with a system to measure thrust with piezo as well. I got this from David - assuming that I got it right!
---------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Okay, now let's talk about single triggers

So as to not side track this wonderful thread , I'll contact you in a PM.

quote:

I'll ask you a better question! Including you, how many here, has ever been charged, by a dangerous game animal, while using any kind of rifle? Additionally, if you have, did you do everything as you would have on your firing range at home? I didn't think so!

MacD37,
Yes I had a full charge from a cow elephant. That was more excitement than I needed. Rifle was a Searcy 400. Things worked out fine of course. The impressive thing is how amazingly quickly things happen in that sort of situation. The idea that some how you are going to open any double rifle and reload in the middle a charge is not very likely. In fact I would guess impossible.

The odds of any event coming to completion is the product of the odds of all the necessary steps involved coming to completion.

that is: If you are going on a DG safaris and the odds of a real charge are 1/50 then the odd of having a charge are 1/50.
If you are using a Double rifle the odds are that some how you will get into a situation that in the middle of a charge your odds of trying to load your rifle in a hurry are 1/1000
If you have checked out your rimless rifle then the odds of it failing to extract/eject has to be less than 1/100
The bottom line here is that the odds of you having a Rimless double fail in the middle of a charge where you need and have a chance to reload are 1/50 X 1/1000 X 1/100 = one in 5 million. Personally I don't lay awake at night worrying about things that have a 1/5,000,000 chance of occurring. I lay awake wondering how the hell I can afford to get back to Africa.

The bottom line here for a simple person like me is this
If you can hunt dangerous game even one time in you life BE HAPPY
If you can afford any decent double rifle BE HAPPY
If you can hunt Africa with your double rifle BE ECSTATIC YOU ARE A VERY VERY LUCKY PERSON.
Don't sweat the small stuff. And Remember it is never too late to start that happy child hood!

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:

quote:

Originally posted by Wink:
There is the 500/416, the 450/400 and even the 416 Chapuis, in or around the .416 caliber, all rimmed low pressure cartridges made for double barrel express rifles. Why would anyone want to choose the rimless 416 Rigby over any of the above?

Wink:

AzGuys original question at the beginning of this thread was whether anyone had any experience with a .416 Rigby double. So far, no one has said they have one. They are available and can be had at a substantial discount because nobody seems to want a rimless cartridge double. Like everyone else, If I were going to pop for a new double, I would pick a rimmed cartridge too...a 9,3X74 or a perhaps a 450/.400 but I would not walk away from a good deal on a .416 Rigby either. In fact, the .416 Rigby is the ONLY rimless double cartridge I would consider becasue it is such a low pressure round. I think having a bolt gun and a double shooting the same cartridge would be a big plus if you could get the Rigby to work in a double.

Dave

When Chapuis quit making the 416 Chapuis they started advertizing that they chamber there Brousse double gun in 416 Rigby. I'll drop them a line and ask how many double guns in 416 Rigby they have made to date, just so that there will be a little more information available to us. It may be that very few double rifles have been chambered in 416 Rigby and the rarity may in fact one day add value to a double gun.

quote:

I think having a bolt gun and a double shooting the same cartridge would be a big plus if you could get the Rigby to work in a double.

No less than John "Pondoro" Taylor thought so too. But he opines that the 425WR would have been ideal. And he also would have liked the double with WR's single trigger.

Today some countries have barred bringing in two rifles shooting the same cartridge. My choice here is a double in 458wm and a bolt in 458 Lott, but with the bolt set up to feed and shoot 458wm reliably.

JPK

Here is a link to my previous post about facing an elephant charge with my 458wm double rifle. Note that I stopped the charge and got the elephant turning to leave with the two rounds in the rifle. But also note that I reloaded one round twice to put in killing shots.

https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/...=631101206#631101206

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
Here is a link to my previous post about facing an elephant charge with my 458wm double rifle. Note that I stopped the charge and got the elephant turning to leave with the two rounds in the rifle. But also note that I reloaded one round twice to put in killing shots.

https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/...=631101206#631101206

JPK

I use JPK's post as an example, only, because he did everything right, in his example!


The fact that an animal charges, doesn't mean he will continue the charge when he gets a couple of hard slaps in the chops. With ele, they often turn with a heavy hit to the face, as JPK describes in his link. Not so often with buffalo, once they start, they usually will not stop till you put them down. I've had buffalo go down to first, or second shot, but get right back up, fortunately giving time for a re-loading. In this case the animal was not charging me, but trying to get into the weeds, but the quickness of re-load is the same either way. We were in no danger immediately, but if he had gotten into the tall grass, things would have gotten sticky quick!

elsyou can make up numbers all day, but at the end of the day, all you have is numbers on your paper. The fact is, no matter what rifle, or system you are using, when you need to do everything right, OR ELSE, that is the time folks make mistakes. With that in mind, everything you can illuminate that has even a slight chance of getting you into trouble only makes common horse sense, to do so!

els It is evident, from your last post, nothing worries you, if your approach to a confrontation with a Buffalo, or ele, is as if it were no more dangerous than a video game, believing you loose nothing if something goes wrong. Hunting for you with that kind of assurance, must be boring as hell. To me, that brassy taste in my mouth, and the total awareness that comes when things get tight, is the reason I only enjoy hunting dangerous game. Hell if it weren't dangerous, you may as well be popping P-Dogs from 300 yds, a pursuit I have zero interest in!

Mr. Taylor, the old Ivory hunter JPK cites, above, was one to preach, never fire both barrels on elephant, in a herd, unless you have no other choice. His thing was, to fire on the, at rest, ele, and immediately re-load that barrel, fire again, reload that barrel again. He said the reason is a big bull almost always have Eskaris around him, so leaving one barrel charged at all times is the desirable way! That means reloading without taking your eyes off the target.

In most cases a Charge is the result of a screw-up, and if the first shot is screwed up, with the animal calm, what on Earth makes anyone think he will not screw up worse when the animal charges!

Nothing is 100% fool proof, as long as you have a sufficiently talented fool.