Ladies and Gentlemen:

I am looking to fill out my future battery of Africa rifles. At the top end, I would like to shoot cape buffalo with a double rifle.

After doing research both here in this forum, on the internet, and by re-reading John Taylor's, African Rifles and Cartridges, I have a few questions:

1. Is there any noticeable difference in the 450 N. E through 470 N. E. cartridges with 480-500 grain bullets in effectiveness on cape buffalo?

2. Is there any marked difference between the above mentioned 450-470 cartridges and the 450/400 3" N. E. with a 400 grain bullet on cape buffalo?

3. Which older builders (1890's to 1950's) of quality double rifles do you like in either the 450-470 N. E. group or in the 450/400 3" N. E. configuration?

4. Who sells those older double rifles?

I went to Cabelas in Hamburg, Pennsylvania last week, and shouldered both the Sabatti 470 N. E. and a Merkel 140-2.1 in 470 N. E. I will be able to shoot a Searcy 577 N. E. in January.

After shouldering both of those double rifles, I now know that I must have a big caliber double rifle. I believe the addiction has begun.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

Yale,
Those are some excellent questions and I look forward to reading the opinions of real experts here, one of which I am not.
But, opinions are carried by all and here are mine:
1) 450NE ~ 470NE in recoil and effectiveness on dangerous game;
2) 450/400 would be just as effective as though less powerful than either;
3) not sure how you define older, but of the quality modern builders Chapuis, Heym, Krieghoff, Merkel, Searcy and Verney-Carron are all excellent choices;
4) how old do you want to go?

BTW, there is no cure ...

Yale,

You should contact Ken Buch at Kebco LLC as he is not too far from you. He carries Verney Carron doubles and many others.

Sam

A good selection of new and old is available at GunsInternational and GunsAmerica as well as a few at GunBroker.

The difference between at 470 and a 450 is nil. The 470 has a very few thousandths bigger diameter with the same basic weight bullet at the spame speed..

No expert here, but have run the course recently.

The note above to visit Ken is a good one and Ken is a great guy, although I go to see Jack and the new pup!

Beyond this if you can get to SCI you can typically see a number of rifles and start figuring your personal likes and dislikes.

The older rifles are very attractive, Rigbys and those built on the Webley PHV 1, find one with good barrels and such and you are quickly closing in on 2 X what you can buy a very good currently built gun that doesn't have 100 yr. old springs ect.

The mental gymnastics kick in when you think about to fullfill the dream you have to hand the rifle you just paid as much for as a new truck, off to the baggage handlers in Joberg and beyond.
It is a lot of fun!

HBH

Not an expert and have not used all of them but ...

You can expect a jump in performance between a ...

9.3mm such as the 9.3x74R and then
larger .375's and again to the
.400's and again to the
.450 to .470's and the biggest jump to the
.500's and above.

Simple logic.

However a 9.3x74R will still kill but with less effectiveness than those larger. Also the legal requirements of the hunting country need to be considered.

A .400 double rifle will be a good rifle for buffalo.

A .450 to .470 will be better.

In the unlikely event of a charge, a bigger calibre will inspire more confidence and also make up for less than perfect shot placement to some degree. eg closely missing the brain.

If you are looking for a vintage double rifle call George at Champlins. 580-237-7388

quote:

Originally posted by NitroX:
Not an expert and have not used all of them but ...

You can expect a jump in performance between a ...

9.3mm such as the 9.3x74R and then
larger .375's and again to the
.400's and again to the
.450 to .470's and the biggest jump to the
.500's and above.

Simple logic.

However a 9.3x74R will still kill but with less effectiveness than those larger. Also the legal requirements of the hunting country need to be considered.

A .400 double rifle will be a good rifle for buffalo.

A .450 to .470 will be better.

In the unlikely event of a charge, a bigger calibre will inspire more confidence and also make up for less than perfect shot placement to some degree. eg closely missing the brain.

NitroX, I agree with you 100%, but please visit the "A Simple Deduction" thread in the African Hunting category. There are some there espousing that a larger than 375 will not result in any compensation for a less than perfect shot under any circumstance. It's the same old argument.

For the visiting hunter, I would say that a 450/400 is the best. If elephant is on the list, a 500/416, 450, 470 or even a 500 would be the best choice. IMHO, the 500 is the biggest caliber that makes any practical sense. No offense Doc.

The 500/416 is the best of all of the above.

Thank you all for your wonderful advice.

Now, all I need is the money, and the time to peruse.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

quote:

Originally posted by 470Evans:
If you are looking for a vintage double rifle call George at Champlins. 580-237-7388

+1

Chris,
Get what you like and enjoy the heck out of it regardless of caliber

I do remember reading of a few well known DG hunters here on AR who have moved up from their 500NE doubles.

Dave,
No offense taken - friends can have differing opinions and remain friends.

I see no need for myself for anything other than the 450-400-3"...I tried the 470 and 500s, they kill wonderfully, but so does the 450-400..It is the ideal buffalo caliber, perfect for them...

and I never could understand why some folks think the 450-400 is minimal on elephant, a hole in the brain does not measure death by size, a bb in the brain is probably deadly..

but on a body shots then the 450-3.25 or the .470 would be a better choice. Larger than that is pain and suffering IMO. That said I have seen elephant killed wiht body shots from the 375 Flanged and 450-400..

I saw one elephant shot in the heart/lung area with a 7x57 or 7x64 Brno?? and a woodleigh 175 gr. RN solid, I never saw an animal leak that much blood, it was actually impressive to this old curmudgeon that thought he had seen it all...He fell over dead after a 100 yard run..this said does not mean much, as I know the bigger the caliber the better it will kill buffalo, hippo, and elephant, but I hate the recoil of the really big bores and I shoot the 450-400 best.

The fast second shot of a low recoiling 450/400 is a definite advantage on Buffalo and similar.

I am no expert and had a chance to shoot 6 or 7 DRs with Sam a couple of years ago. I found the 450 / 400 the easiest to shoot particularly since it fit me perfectly. I also shot a 500NE & a 600NE reasonably. The 470NE was a bad fit and it booted me like crazy.

I would strongly advise that you make sure the rifle fits you perfectly, irrespective of the caliber you choose. That is the main criterion for shooting well with it and having confidence in it. JMHO

quote:

Originally posted by 470Evans:
If you are looking for a vintage double rifle call George at Champlins. 580-237-7388

+1 on George and Champlins; George has a wealth of knowledge and JJ is one of the best gunsmiths there is.

All I will say is: "DON'T rule out a .500 NE"! To me...it kicks easier that a .470...kills like the hammer of Thor!

quote:

Originally posted by PSmith:

quote:

Originally posted by 470Evans:
If you are looking for a vintage double rifle call George at Champlins. 580-237-7388

+1 on George and Champlins; George has a wealth of knowledge and JJ is one of the best gunsmiths there is.

What do George and JJ think of your Merkel side-lock?

The 500 N.E. is the best of the really big bores and I believe it more effective than the .577 or 600 or so it appears to me..

If I wanted the ultimate in a double and I hunted elephant on a regular basis, then I would choose the 450-3.25, 470 or 500 depending on which one cost the least and shot the best.

But I hunt mostly buffalo and Hippo and the 450-400 is excellent. These days I hunt more with the 404 Jeffeys bolt gun than the doubles..As I age my big bore guns get lighter in weight, kick more, my middle finger gets puffier, and I tendto cry and cuss more per shot.

Don't forget the .500/465 Nitro Express. For many years it was one of the most asked for calibers for a heavy double rifle. It is still a standard caliber offered by Holland & Holland.

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:
Don't forget the .500/465 Nitro Express. For many years it was one of the most asked for calibers for a heavy double rifle. It is still a standard caliber offered by Holland & Holland.

Indeed. Now if only I can get a run of Cutting Edge Bullets BBW #13's made for the beast.

Whatever rifle you decide to purchase, make sure it fits you properly. The recoil from any double over 450/400 is substantial, and if the rifle fits you poorly, it will kick the living hell out of you. Conversely, if it does fit, you will never notice the recoil (much), and you will not be prone to developing a flinch (bad for hunting dangerous game).

If you have never been measured for a rifle / shotgun, this is a good time to start. There was a guy from VC at Ken Buch's booth at Dallas last year that would do your measurements free of charge. This service might cost you $100 or more to have it done when you are not ordering a custom rifle. Any maker like Heym or Searcy that builds your rifle from scratch will also do these measurements for you as part of building your rifle. If you decide to go with a production rifle like a Merkel, you can always send the rifle to a place like Champlin or Briley and have the stock bent, a leather covered pad added or any other mods within reason done for a couple of hundred bucks. Having your large bore double fit is worth every penny!
Mangwana

I am biased, because it's the calibre that I chose when I built myself a dangerous game double, but don't rule out a .450 #2 NE if you find a good one. It has the same power as the .450NE, the .470 NE, the 500-.465NE, etc, but at lower pressures.

Another advantage that it and its two .475 #2 brothers have is, that being bottlenecked cartridges, they are just a smidgen easier to start into the chamber, let go, and they drop right home.

I believe that it was Robert Chester Ruark who coined the phrase "panatella-sized" in relation to large, dangerous game cartridges. These three certainly fit that descripion as they are 4 1/2" long when loaded and dwarf all of the others mentioned. This may sound a bit silly but their sheer size tends to inspire confidence in one's ability to deal with sphincter-puckering situations.

Just my two cents worth, and that's probably what it's worth!

Again, thank you for all your replies and advice.

Dear Subsailor74:

No worries on stock fit, I do it myself, and I'm a perfectionist.

The Merkel 140-2.1 in 470 N. E. that I threw up to my shoulder at Cabelas last week would have belted the hell out of me with that low, thin comb and useless pancake cheekpiece. The Sabatti on the other hand, fit quite well, but at $5,500.00, I question its quality.

Thanks again.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
All I will say is: "DON'T rule out a .500 NE"! To me...it kicks easier that a .470...kills like the hammer of Thor!

Doc, you're a tougher guy than me. To me,, while the .500 NE is a wonderful caliber, I think it is a noticeable step up in recoil over the .470 and everyone I shot beat the hell out of me. That being said, I am just drooling over the Krieghoff .500 NE at First Stop Gun and boy, is the price right. I am guessing the first owner just couldn't handle the recoil or maybe took it to Africa for a trip and brought it back to sell.

Again, here is the link:

http://www.gunsamerica.com/912...e_Classic_500NE.htm#

Will somebody please buy this thing!

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

What do George and JJ think of your Merkel side-lock?

George will not sell a Merkel double rifle claiming they will go off face in less than 50 rounds! My guess is the real reason is the Merkel competes too closely with his darling Chapuis' price point,nothing more.

When the Merkels first came on the market we heard all kinds of predictions about the Merkel's stringth, but where we heard this was from dealers, and improters who simply couldn't meet the Merkels price point. 15 years later those predictions have not shown their heads above water. I have two Merkel double rifles and both are ten years old, and both have had the crap shot out of them with not one ill effect.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
All I will say is: "DON'T rule out a .500 NE"! To me...it kicks easier that a .470...kills like the hammer of Thor!

Doc, you're a tougher guy than me. To me,, while the .500 NE is a wonderful caliber, I think it is a noticeable step up in recoil over the .470 and everyone I shot beat the hell out of me. That being said, I am just drooling over the Krieghoff .500 NE at First Stop Gun and boy, is the price right. I am guessing the first owner just couldn't handle the recoil or maybe took it to Africa for a trip and brought it back to sell.

Again, here is the link:

http://www.gunsamerica.com/912...e_Classic_500NE.htm#

Will somebody please buy this thing!

I've been looking at this same gun Dave. Trying to decide if it's worth it to me to trade my 500NE Merkel that I've killed my first 3 Elephants with. If it weren't for that history, I would have made the trade already! This is a beautiful hunting rifle at a great price.

I really want the 500/416 or 450/400 right now.

Did you get my email about your gun?

If it were me i would get a 500 N.E Searcy ,it will be made to fit you ,you will know what loads it was regulated with ,if you need it serviced or looked at ,the maker is in your own country and you will be keeping your own country men in a job .a 500 and a scoped 9.3 double you can shoot everything plus a ''500'' sounds alot better than all the 450 ,465,470,475 s etc numbers

quote:

Originally posted by tankhunter:
.a 500 and a scoped 9.3 double you can shoot everything plus a ''500'' sounds alot better than all the 450 ,465,470,475 s etc numbers

That's exactly my current set up. A 500NE and a scoped 9.3X74.

Still, anyone who owns a double will tell you, one is not enough and neither are two. I think that no matter how many you have, the required number will always be "at least one more".

Todd,
Keep both and get the 450/400 - you will NOT regret it. One of my very favorite calibers.

Stay well

Yeah Doc,

I don't intend to get rid of the 500 or 9.3. Just need .40 to go with them. Have a 416 Rigby but bolt trash ain't the same!!

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Yeah Doc,

I don't intend to get rid of the 500 or 9.3. Just need .40 to go with them. Have a 416 Rigby but bolt trash ain't the same!!

Hope you have a Merry Christmas and that .40 double winds up under the tree - if not this year, then maybe next.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
All I will say is: "DON'T rule out a .500 NE"! To me...it kicks easier that a .470...kills like the hammer of Thor!

Doc, you're a tougher guy than me. To me,, while the .500 NE is a wonderful caliber, I think it is a noticeable step up in recoil over the .470 and everyone I shot beat the hell out of me. That being said, I am just drooling over the Krieghoff .500 NE at First Stop Gun and boy, is the price right. I am guessing the first owner just couldn't handle the recoil or maybe took it to Africa for a trip and brought it back to sell.

Again, here is the link:

http://www.gunsamerica.com/912...e_Classic_500NE.htm#

Will somebody please buy this thing!

I've been looking at this same gun Dave. Trying to decide if it's worth it to me to trade my 500NE Merkel that I've killed my first 3 Elephants with. If it weren't for that history, I would have made the trade already! This is a beautiful hunting rifle at a great price.

I really want the 500/416 or 450/400 right now.

Did you get my email about your gun?

Todd, just saw your e-mail and responded.

A Krieghoff??

The suggestion to call George Caswell is the best advice you will get. Deciding whether you want ejectors or can live with extractors needs to be resolved early in your search. Talk to Big Five Jack about a first double. He went through the process here on AR a few years back and it was fun to watch. He had his double for sale not too long ago. It was an older English gun that had been tweaked by Champlins.

Yale, I have only just gone through the same process you are going through yourself.

I am a professional hunting guide in Australia specialising in Asiatic buffalo.

I will be measured in Dallas for a custom stock on a V.C .500 ejector.

No doubt I could have gotten by with many other differnt choices, i.e 450, 470 etc but I've always wanted a two-pipe and I've always had the yearning for the big .500.

Ken Buch (U.S rep for Verney Carron) is the consumate gentleman and made the process very painless and enjoyable for me.

Mine will be primarily used as back up occasionally for clients and perhaps a little of my own recreational hunting in Africa.

During my own reasearch, many, far more experienced and knowledgable with doubles than I, highly reccomended the .500, stating that there is little, if any, difference in performance in the .450 - .470 range, not that there is anything wrong with that range of performance.

Personally I was looking for a double that would closely replicate the stopping performance I currently get from my old stand-by back-up the 458 Lott.

I'm hoping to get that with a .500.

Good luck in your quest.

in MY opinion...

you have
the 400gr @ ~2200
the ~500gr @ ~2150
the 570gr @2150
then the 750gr at 2050

anything larger than the .585 bullet is a HEAVY gun

450ne-(everything shy of the 500 nitro) are truely ABOUT the same thing, BY DESIGN...