It's a damn good thing that my vote does not count!

But if it did--You boys would be toting around a 500 Nitro, 8 lbs, 20 inch barrels, shooting the new 510 BBW#13 Solid and it's matching 475 BBW#13 NonCon! 8 lbs and 20 inch barrels would be plenty heavy! Short fast and handy as well!



Michael

Dave, I saw it there too but am fairly certain it originated in Scotland, given the vernacular, best, Mike

The proper weight for a double rifle in different calibers is a fairly often asked question on this forum. I did a little research a while back. Most consider H&H to be the “experts” in building double rifles. I did a little research and came up with the following.
Holland & Holland weight guide.
.300 H&H 8lb 10oz
.375 H&H 9lb 6oz
.500/465 H&H 10lb 2oz

I also found these rifles listed on their web sight a while ago.

Built guns on their web site
.470 10lb 11oz
.375 Flanged 10lb 2oz
.300 11lb
.300 9lb 14 oz
577 15 lb

Bill

John Taylor suggests that the approximate weight of a 500 was between 10 and 12 pounds. A 470, 10.5 to 11.5 pounds.

Any other opinions?

Just had this conversation with an outfitter today who is looking at a new DR. Any rifle heavier than 11 lbs. is impractical for all day carrying for days on end and this hunter still be expected to shoot with accuracy.

I personally don't want a .500, but if I did, I would choose between 10.75 and 11 lbs. For a .470, I like between 10.5 and 10.75 lbs.

Gentlemen, I have shot s lot of different doubles over the years.
AND I have hunted a LOT with double rifles over the years.

So here are some Random Thoughts.

I find my 450/400 3 1/4" at @10lb 2oz to be just about perfect. Very shootable. Now tht I have it scoped with a 1.1-4 S&B scope in claw mounts add over a pound or so and it is even more comfortable to shoot.

My 450 No2 a British gun with 28 barrels, with its Murray buttstock shell carrier and 6 rounds weighs about 11 3/4 lbs. It is perfectly balanced. It has very low recoil, I can shoot it like a 22LR...

So IMHO a 470 should weigh @ 11 lbs, give or take an ounce or two as wood will vary, and a 500 should weigh around 12 lbs, give or take an ounce or three, as again wood will vary.
I would want 26" barrels.

Of course the balance of the rifle is most important. You want around half of the weight of the double rifle between the hands, ie between the pistol grip and the foreend.

If this is done, the rifle feels ALIVE, not like a 4x4...

I have done a lot of cape buff and elephant hunting, in very heavy bush, and shot some buff,elephants, and some plains game with it as well, at very close ranges, I have never found the weight, or length of my 450 No2 to be any thing but perfect.

Too light a rifle with its increased recoil is not a good thing IMHO. I prefer better Shootability, over a little lighter Carryability.

Bill Cooley, that .300 weighing 11lbs must be a special order ??! That is silly, maybe there is a benchrest target shooter out there who cancelled his order best, Mike

For someone who is going to carry thier own rifle long distances. 450/400 9LB. 470 10LB. 500 11LB.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
.500 = 11-11.5 pounds

Agreed for minimum weight! 11.5 to 12.0 is more to my liking for a 500NE double rifle!

..............................................................................

Interesting results in our informal polling…

Personally, I'm of the opinion that a Professional Hunter carries his rifle a lot more than he shoots it.

For the client, however, I would say (compared to the PH) that they shoot it a lot more than they carry it (at least they should be shooting it a lot more.)

From the client's perspective, I see the recoil of a 10 pound 470 to be a bit rough. Not necessarily so for an adrenaline-filled PH keeping big animals from biting you, but for the client, I think a heavier rifle with less recoil is a better choice.

Recoil is greater in the lighter rifle, it's less fun to shoot, they don't practice as much as they should, and flinching is much more apt to develop.

If you look at historical weights of double rifles, they certainly varied by maker, but I believe they were certainly heavier 80-years ago than they are today.

I've found average weights as follows
450/400 = 10.0 lbs
470 = 11.0 lbs
500 = 11.5-12.0 lbs

At these weights, I believe that the rifles are much more tolerable in the recoil department. Of course stock fit and powders play a role, but the simple physics indicate more weight = less recoil.

Here are some "rough" examples.

450/400
400gr
2100fps
10.0lbs
41 ft/lbs of recoil energy

470
500gr
21000fps
10.0lbs
65 ft/lbs of recoil energy

With the weight at 11.0 lbs.
59 ft/lbs of recoil

500
570gr
2100
10.5lbs
75 ft/lbs of recoil energy

With the weight at 11.5 lbs.
68 ft/lbs of recoil energy

quote:

Originally posted by new_guy:
Interesting results in our informal polling…

Personally, I'm of the opinion that a Professional Hunter carries his rifle a lot more than he shoots it.

For the client, however, I would say (compared to the PH) that they shoot it a lot more than they carry it (at least they should be shooting it a lot more.)

From the client's perspective, I see the recoil of a 10 pound 470 to be a bit rough. Not necessarily so for an adrenaline-filled PH keeping big animals from biting you, but for the client, I think a heavier rifle with less recoil is a better choice.

Recoil is greater in the lighter rifle, it's less fun to shoot, they don't practice as much as they should, and flinching is much more apt to develop.

If you look at historical weights of double rifles, they certainly varied by maker, but I believe they were certainly heavier 80-years ago than they are today.

I've found average weights as follows
450/400 = 10.0 lbs
470 = 11.0 lbs
500 = 11.5-12.0 lbs

At these weights, I believe that the rifles are much more tolerable in the recoil department. Of course stock fit and powders play a role, but the simple physics indicate more weight = less recoil.

Here are some "rough" examples.

450/400
400gr
2100fps
10.0lbs
41 ft/lbs of recoil energy

470
500gr
21000fps
10.0lbs
65 ft/lbs of recoil energy

With the weight at 11.0 lbs.
59 ft/lbs of recoil

500
570gr
2100
10.5lbs
75 ft/lbs of recoil energy

With the weight at 11.5 lbs.
68 ft/lbs of recoil energy

....................................................................

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

470
500gr
21000fps
10.0lbs



....................................................................

Okay... 2100fps is better.

quote:

Originally posted by new_guy:
Interesting results in our informal polling…

Personally, I'm of the opinion that a Professional Hunter carries his rifle a lot more than he shoots it.

For the client, however, I would say (compared to the PH) that they shoot it a lot more than they carry it (at least they should be shooting it a lot more.)

From the client's perspective, I see the recoil of a 10 pound 470 to be a bit rough. Not necessarily so for an adrenaline-filled PH keeping big animals from biting you, but for the client, I think a heavier rifle with less recoil is a better choice.

Recoil is greater in the lighter rifle, it's less fun to shoot, they don't practice as much as they should, and flinching is much more apt to develop.

If you look at historical weights of double rifles, they certainly varied by maker, but I believe they were certainly heavier 80-years ago than they are today.

I've found average weights as follows
450/400 = 10.0 lbs
470 = 11.0 lbs
500 = 11.5-12.0 lbs

At these weights, I believe that the rifles are much more tolerable in the recoil department. Of course stock fit and powders play a role, but the simple physics indicate more weight = less recoil.

Here are some "rough" examples.

450/400
400gr
2100fps
10.0lbs
41 ft/lbs of recoil energy

470
500gr
21000fps
10.0lbs
65 ft/lbs of recoil energy

With the weight at 11.0 lbs.
59 ft/lbs of recoil

500
570gr
2100
10.5lbs
75 ft/lbs of recoil energy

With the weight at 11.5 lbs.
68 ft/lbs of recoil energy

OK will you offer thinner tubes for me then?

quote:

Originally posted by McKay:

OK will you offer thinner tubes for me then?

Which Caliber?

Chris, do you find that, for a given power output and rifle weight, that clients seem to perceive the recoil of a double over a bolt gun to be greater? It's a difficult judgement to make, as calibers in DRs and bolt rifles are usually different. But say in a 450 NE or 470, compared to a 458 Win Mag, both launching bullets of about 500gr at 2,100 fps, a 10 lb DR seem to get your attention, while a 458 bolt rifle at 10 lbs is a relative piece of cake.

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
Chris, do you find that, for a given power output and rifle weight, that clients seem to perceive the recoil of a double over a bolt gun to be greater? It's a difficult judgement to make, as calibers in DRs and bolt rifles are usually different. But say in a 450 NE or 470, compared to a 458 Win Mag, both launching bullets of about 500gr at 2,100 fps, a 10 lb DR seem to get your attention, while a 458 bolt rifle at 10 lbs is a relative piece of cake.

The quote in red above doesn't quite fly, because most 458 Win Mag will not actually produce 2100 FPS from the 22-24 inch barrel.

Biebs, I’ll not presume to answer for Chris, as he probably has forgotten more than I’ll ever know about double rifles. However I have shot about every cartridge available chambered in double rifles, and a like number of both single shots, and bolt rifles pushing some very large bullets, down the tubes at the same velocities and I find the recoil less painful in double rifles.

This, IMO, is because of two reasons! #1 is double rifles are usually heavier than the other two types, and #2 the Side by side double rifle recoil flip is different from a single barreled rifle. The side by side, under recoil, moves back, and flips UP, and to the side away from the other barrel, so the shooter doesn’t take all of the recoil. IMO, this spreads the recoil effect out spreading it out over a wider area on the shooter. Even the O/U recoils differently from the S/S or a single barreled rifle.

The over under recoils back and up for both barrels, BUT each barrel recoils differently than the other. The bottom recoils like a single barreled rifle, but the top barrel recoils a greater amount UP than the bottom barrel, because it is above the CG of the rifle, and the bottom is in line with the CG of the rifle. I believe because of all these things, the same weight bullet being fired with the same velocity produces less felt recoil in a S/S double rifle than either a single shot, bolt rifle, or even an over under double rifle.

……………………HUMMMMMMMM I hope that is at least as clear as swamp mud!

..............................................

Interesting idea, that maybe why my O/U .470 seemed to kick more than my .500 S/S but that could also be due to stock fit ?, one built for me, the other not ? best, Mike

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

The side by side, under recoil, moves back, and flips UP, and to the side away from the other barrel, so the shooter doesn’t take all of the recoil. IMO, this spreads the recoil effect out spreading it out over a wider area on the shooter. Even the O/U recoils differently from the S/S or a single barreled rifle.

The over under recoils back and up for both barrels, BUT each barrel recoils differently than the other. The bottom recoils like a single barreled rifle, but the top barrel recoils a greater amount UP than the bottom barrel, because it is above the CG of the rifle, and the bottom is in line with the CG of the rifle. I believe because of all these things, the same weight bullet being fired with the same velocity produces less felt recoil in a S/S double rifle than either a single shot, bolt rifle, or even an over under double rifle.

……………………HUMMMMMMMM I hope that is at least as clear as swamp mud!

..............................................

Last time you shot the right barrel of your favorite double... did you noticed the amount of the flip to the right? Did you notice ANY flip to the right? Because that is the spread of the recoil you mention. Small, isn´t it?
And regarding O/U doubles, certainly the upper barrel has a bigger upward flip than the lower, because it´s axis is further away of the center of the buttstock. But you can try shooting a O/U (or a S/S, if you want) with your eyes closed, and you will not know which barrel have you shot. The lateral recoil in a S/S or the difference in upwards flip in a O/U is minimal.
If you want to find differences in the recoil of a 450 NE and a 458 (shot in the same rifle, of course), it is better to look at the differences in the weight (and in a lesser degree the type) of the powder in each cartridge (more than 90 grains in the first, 70 in the latter). And in different rifles, the weight and the type of the stock are by far more relevant.

Jon - as someone suggested, I would say that the vast majority of production big bore bolt guns are built way too light.

In the corner of my office, is a 500 Jeffery built by a once relatively popular (but now defunct) "gun maker"... if it weighs an ounce more than 9 & 1/2 pounds, I'll kiss your @$$.

A joy to carry? Sure... but a 570gr bullet at 2350 from a 9.5 pound 500? Not for me.



I believe the Brits understood Newton's third law, and they built rifles heavier to help mitigate recoil.

In round numbers, a 375 H&H has 4K ft/lbs of energy at the muzzle.
The 470 has 5K ft/lbs or 20% more... it makes sense to me that a 470 should weigh 20% more than a 375.
The 500 has @ 6K ft/lbs or 17% more, and I think the same applies here too.

So from that loose math,
9.5 pounds is a nice weight (to me) for a 375.
20% more is 11.4 pounds for the 470.
17% more is 13.3 pounds for the 500 (that weight could be a bit impractical.)

Yes, I understand these are generalizations, and that the relationships aren't exactly linear, but I also believe that clients shoot better when they have less recoil, and they practice more too. In turn, they should shoot better as well.

quote:

Originally posted by herrdoktor:
And regarding O/U doubles, certainly the upper barrel has a bigger upward flip than the lower, because it´s axis is further away of the center of the buttstock. But you can try shooting a O/U (or a S/S, if you want) with your eyes closed, and you will not know which barrel have you shot. The lateral recoil in a S/S or the difference in upwards flip in a O/U is minimal.

herrdoktor, you, of course, are correct in everything you say above! The flip “IS” minimal, and under recoil is almost impossible to see with the human eye! This can be seen quite easily when filmed and played back in slow motion. The fact that it is minimal being absolutely true, doesn’t mean that this has no effect on felt recoil, because it certainly does.

quote:

If you want to find differences in the recoil of a 450 NE and a 458 (shot in the same rifle, of course), it is better to look at the differences in the weight (and in a lesser degree the type) of the powder in each cartridge (more than 90 grains in the first, 70 in the latter). And in different rifles, the weight and the type of the stock are by far more relevant.

Your quote above is absolutely true as well, and does effect felt recoil, but the total effect is a combination of the way a double rifle moves under recoil being different from the way a bolt or single shot moves.

Certainly, there is a large difference between a bolt , a single shot and a double rifle! It was evidently the question asked in the first place. The difference in shape and difference in cartridge make up is a given. But when both rifle weigh the same and the bullets are moving at the same speed, the difference that is NOT evident is the way the rifle recoils physically! I find a great difference in felt recoil between like weighted double rifle chambere3d the same way with S/S, and O/U barrel configuration, as well. I find it strange that you would think any factor would have no effect simply because you can’t see it with the naked eye!

………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………

quote:

Originally posted by new_guy:
What would you say the ideal weights are for:

470?

500?

No idea for a 470 but for others that I've owned and shot a lot here are my preferences:

375Fl - 8.5 - 9 lbs
450/400 - 9.5 - 10 lbs
450NE - 10 - 10.5lbs
500NE - 11 - 11.5 lbs
577NE - 12 - 12.5 lbs
600NE - 13 - 13.5 lbs

Of all of the doubles in all of the calibers I have shot, my Merkel 140 in 500NE was the only one I just couldn't get comfortable with. It was light but not too light. It's all about fit and that one just didn't seem to fit me all that well.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
It's a damn good thing that my vote does not count!

But if it did--You boys would be toting around a 500 Nitro, 8 lbs, 20 inch barrels, shooting the new 510 BBW#13 Solid and it's matching 475 BBW#13 NonCon! 8 lbs and 20 inch barrels would be plenty heavy! Short fast and handy as well!



Michael

You guys with your short, thin tubes are always trying to convince others that size doesn't matter.

I know you're away and trust you are having a great time but I couln't let that slip by without comment.

New Guy,

Just curious, why the poll? Is Heym looking at changing the weights in their DR's?

I have personally found the Heyms to be very nicely weighted. The .375 H&H at 8.5 lbs is absoulutely perfect in your 88B DR models.

If folks are complaining that the guns are too light, I bet they are shooting too much and not hunting enough. I carried a Heym .375 last fall on a bear hunt for 3 days, all day every day in steep mountains, and it was a joy to carry everyday. Passed on the only bear I could shoot due to size, but what a great bear rifle.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by mdstewart:

If folks are complaining that the guns are too light, I bet they are shooting too much

Mike

HUH??!!

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
Chris, do you find that, for a given power output and rifle weight, that clients seem to perceive the recoil of a double over a bolt gun to be greater? It's a difficult judgement to make, as calibers in DRs and bolt rifles are usually different. But say in a 450 NE or 470, compared to a 458 Win Mag, both launching bullets of about 500gr at 2,100 fps, a 10 lb DR seem to get your attention, while a 458 bolt rifle at 10 lbs is a relative piece of cake.

Biebs, I would also have to say that I perceive the DR to be less offensive in the subject of recoil when compared to a bolt gun. Mainly because the fit is usually better in a DR as well as the weight tends to be heavier. But that's just my subjective opinion.

Todd, you got it in one, why can you shoot 300 rounds through a 12 bore in a day and not notice......stock fit ! best, Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by mdstewart:

If folks are complaining that the guns are too light, I bet they are shooting too much

Mike

HUH??!!

I usually hear complaints about recoil from folks shooting a .450 and up caliber and some of them seldom hunt and have little experience with carrying an 11 pound gun around in the field all day for days on end. They have little perspective on weight as a result. Most scoped bolt guns in a big bore weigh as much as a DR, but they seem to forget that. Nothing wrong with shooting alot; I sure do.

Taylor said that back in the day, most 500s were built around 12 pounds which was why they were bypassed in favor of the .577. He said that the caliber got more popular when it was "discovered" that they could be built around 10.5 pounds. For me anyway, the 12 pound was about right. Every 500 that I have ever shot was around 10.5-11 pounds and they just beat the heck out of me. I just can't carry those guns anymore. My 500/.416 at 10.5 pounds is about right. My .375 at 9-10 pounds is even better. I love shooting the heavier guns at the range but I just can't carry them anymore.

I was wondering, for you guys that hunt elephant, if you have a heavy double, can you hire someone to carry it for you while you carry your light gun, taking over the heavy at the right time? Have some of your done that in the past.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Taylor said that back in the day, most 500s were built around 12 pounds which was why they were bypassed in favor of the .577. He said that the caliber got more popular when it was "discovered" that they could be built around 10.5 pounds. For me anyway, the 12 pound was about right. Every 500 that I have ever shot was around 10.5-11 pounds and they just beat the heck out of me. I just can't carry those guns anymore. My 500/.416 at 10.5 pounds is about right. My .375 at 9-10 pounds is even better. I love shooting the heavier guns at the range but I just can't carry them anymore.

I was wondering, for you guys that hunt elephant, if you have a heavy double, can you hire someone to carry it for you while you carry your light gun, taking over the heavy at the right time? Have some of your done that in the past.

Yes Dave, I have swapped the carrying of my light rifle while one of the trackers carried my 500NE previously.

It depends to varying extents on your age, physical condition, your weight, etc.

My guess is that many want these rifles to weigh alot 'cause they don't want the recoil of lighter rifles. But like someone said you carry them much more than shoot them. Most are overweight pigs, IMO.

I see nothing wrong with with an 8 lb. 470, if straight stocked, and you could find one.

Why a 458 can weigh 8 lbs but not a 470 must be due to that new math!

I am not sure what my .470 NE weighs. It is without the Ko-recoil reducer. I have seen it should weigh 9.5-10 pounds (10.5-11.5 With the KO). That would make it a pretty light .470? Which I am fine With if it is the case...

I have shot 450/400 doubles and bolt 416 Mags side by side and I have shot my 450 No2 side by side with a 458 Bolt Win mag several times, as I had a 458 Win Mag Bolt rifle as an Issue rifle for several years, and I used to shoot it and the No2 together on th same day at the same targets at the same distances.

I have always found the doubles more comfortable to shoot.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Taylor said that back in the day, most 500s were built around 12 pounds which was why they were bypassed in favor of the .577. He said that the caliber got more popular when it was "discovered" that they could be built around 10.5 pounds. For me anyway, the 12 pound was about right. Every 500 that I have ever shot was around 10.5-11 pounds and they just beat the heck out of me. I just can't carry those guns anymore. My 500/.416 at 10.5 pounds is about right. My .375 at 9-10 pounds is even better. I love shooting the heavier guns at the range but I just can't carry them anymore.

I was wondering, for you guys that hunt elephant, if you have a heavy double, can you hire someone to carry it for you while you carry your light gun, taking over the heavy at the right time? Have some of your done that in the past.

I was wrong about this. I picked up a 500 NE K-gun. It'10.4 pounds unloaded and it's not bad to shoot at all. Todd got me headed in the right direction.

So, it appears the 470NE at 10+lbs and the 500NE at 11+lbs is the most recommended weights.
So, why is this the case when everyone (including top Double Smiths) consider the 500NE has less felt recoil? Should that not conclude that the 500NE could easily weigh less than the 470NE?

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:

So, why is this the case when everyone (including top Double Smiths) consider the 500NE has less felt recoil?

. . . because they weigh more than the typical .470 NE? Is this a Mr. Chicken, please meet Mr. Egg scenario? Or are you saying that in two guns of equal weight, a .470 and .500, the .500 will have less felt recoil?

It just sold a H&H Royal 475 no.2 @Bonhams weighing at 13 pounds, felt way too heavy.

My 500 Royal weighed 10lbs 10oz and was lovely to shoot.

Mt 500/450 3 1/4" weighs 10lbs 8oz and is lovely to shoot.

But both rifles fit me well and are well balanced. I wouldn't have wanted them heavier.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
You guys must be tougher than me. I have shot Merkel, Heym, and I think a Searcy 500. All of them kicked the snot out of me, especially the Heym. That one made my eyes cross... LOLOLOL. Compared to those guns, my 470 was a pussycat but then again, it's a Blaser, the BEST of the double rifles

How many of the three was stocked to fit you?

I think that stock fit is the most underrated topic when it comes to rifles of any type.

Even if two guns weigh the same - and their cartridges have comparable levels of recoil.

If they are also not stocked to fit the same owner, then it is an apples and oranges comparison!

I think people can luck into a guns that happen to fit them.

I also think the majority of people make do with what's available, and because they have never fired a rifle that was stocked to fit; they don't know the difference...


.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:

So, why is this the case when everyone (including top Double Smiths) consider the 500NE has less felt recoil?

. . . because they weigh more than the typical .470 NE? Is this a Mr. Chicken, please meet Mr. Egg scenario? Or are you saying that in two guns of equal weight, a .470 and .500, the .500 will have less felt recoil?

Equal weight. Apparently this is due to the 500s straight case (no bottle neck).