What would you say the ideal weights are for:

470?

500?

.500 = 11-11.5 pounds

My 500NE Merkel is 10.5 and I think it is a bit on the light side. Maybe another pound would be about right.

10 to 10.5 for 470 and 11 to 11.5 for 500.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
My 500NE Merkel is 10.5 and I think it is a bit on the light side. Maybe another pound would be about right.

I agree. When I had mine I had JJ add about a pound to it and the recoil became very manageable.

Up to what point does this hold true? If you have a compromised shoulder does a 12lb gun make sense if you want to practice more.

10 lb on the 470, 11 lb on the 500.

During my recent discussions with Holland & Holland and Heym, both were in agreement that 11 lbs was about right for a .500NE.

On that basis I'd say 10 1/2 lbs for a .470NE wouldn't be far off.

quote:

Originally posted by new_guy:
What would you say the ideal weights are for:

470?

500?

IMO the 500NE is fine at 11.3 to 12 pounds. Also I believe the 470NE will benefit from the 11.3 pound as well, but 12 pounds for it begins to get too heavy.

With the right fit of stock configuration for the owner and balance either one will be very usable at the lower weight of 11.3 pounds! I don't want a 470NE at less than 11 pounds.

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Mac, will 11.2 be okay?

470--- 11- to 11.25 lb.


500--- 11.25 to 11.50 lb. even 11.75 lb.

Mike

My Heym 470 is 9lb 14oz and I think it is just about perfect. Very managable.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Mac, will 11.2 be okay?

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Probably not!

Light if you carry it more than shoot it. If you will never get farther afield than the range than go heavy.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
Light if you carry it more than shoot it. If you will never get farther afield than the range than go heavy.

465H&H

That is true you do carry it more than you shoot it! however when you shoot it recoil doesn't matter anyway. However if one is put out of service because a rifle weighs 3/4 of a pound more then he NEEDS to stay at the shooting range and out of the bush with big bad animals.

I carry an 11.3 pound 470NE double all day without problem, and shoot it quite well at the end of the day. Most of my bolt rifles weigh in at over 8 pounds unloaded and un-scoped and I have a ten pound RUGER N01 bull barrled varmint rifle chambered for 7mm Rem Mag with a 3-9X40 scope on it that I hunt deer, prong horn,mauflon and elk with. That rifle doesn't have any recoil to speak of, but will place very small groups at 300 yds because of that weight and stiff bull barrel.

So what I'm saying is weight of any rifle is subjective, and a personal choice.


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10 to 11lbs for me as I enjoy walking a lot.
And not being a big guy I think this makes a difference.

Max of 11 lbs and I like them lighter. I walk a lot too and prefer a light gun. Wish my 577 didn't weigh over 11 lbs. 13 lbs gets mighty heavy after 5 miles.

This is a bit surprising to me:

1) traditional weights of English guns were heavier than most of the replies here
2) when a rifle is build on the lighter side, shooters complain about recoil

quote:

Originally posted by new_guy:
This is a bit surprising to me:

1) traditional weights of English guns were heavier than most of the replies here
2) when a rifle is build on the lighter side, shooters complain about recoil

What were the traditional weights Chris?

On a related issue, why are most off the shelf doubles made with 14.5 LOP. I'm 6'1" and use 15.5". I know there are a lot of 6 foot hunters out there that need more than 14.5. It's much easier to shorten the LOP if necessary than it is to lengthen it.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by new_guy:
This is a bit surprising to me:

1) traditional weights of English guns were heavier than most of the replies here
2) when a rifle is build on the lighter side, shooters complain about recoil

What were the traditional weights Chris?

On a related issue, why are most off the shelf doubles made with 14.5 LOP. I'm 6'1" and use 15.5". I know there are a lot of 6 foot hunters out there that need more than 14.5. It's much easier to shorten the LOP if necessary than it is to lengthen it.

I would say 11 pounds on a 470 and 12 pounds on a 500 were the norm.

LOP is not as easy as cutting the stock when you consider starting off with a 15.5" LOP.

Here's why:

The surface area of the recoil pad should be of a certain size (length and width).

If you build the stock correctly for a 15.5" LOP and cut an inch or so off, the surface are of the recoil pad will not be correct.

Secondly, you obviously change the DAH when you cut one off.

Make sense?

Back when the old heavy English guns were made most hunters let a gun bearer carry the big double and he carried a light bolt gun. I've seen several nice English 577s that weigh under 12 lbs which to me is a good weight for that caliber. If recoil bothers you load a lighter load for practice.

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Back when the old heavy English guns were made most hunters let a gun bearer carry the big double and he carried a light bolt gun. I've seen several nice English 577s that weigh under 12 lbs which to me is a good weight for that caliber. If recoil bothers you load a lighter load for practice.

And 13 pounds for a 600NE!

Chris,

12 lbs in a 500 would be pretty comfortable to shoot I would think. I don't think I would object to that weight at all.

About the LOP however, I hear what you are saying but I have to disagree a bit. Of course, I must take into consideration your experience with all the orders you have placed, but I think that is probably some valuable info for this discussion. In your experience, if you have measured your clients for Heym, what is the average LOP been? I would think that 14.5 is going to be too short for the vast majority of shooters. I could be wrong and your order history could prove that point either way. I'd be interested to know what your info says on that one.

But even so, it seems that 15 might be a better LOP for off the self rifles. That way, if the rifle had to be shortened, it might possibly be done with a thinner pad or removing a spacer. Lengthened could be done with a thicker pad or a small spacer. As it is, for example with my Merkel, I had to put a 1" spacer + a thicker pad to get the LOP correct. If it had started at 15", the additions wouldn't be so drastic.

So yes, it may affect the butt dimensions and the DAH, but if it's too short, it will EAT the second knuckle on your trigger finger when you fire the rear trigger. Reading through this forum, you'll find post after post after post of guys with a new double rifle wanting to know why the front trigger cuts them every time they fire the left barrel, even with an articulated front trigger. The answer is 99% of the time, to increase the LOP. They go out and purchase a thick slip on recoil pad to check it out and, problem solved. Next move is to have a gunsmith put that ugly spacer and thick pad on it so it can be shot without getting bitten. Whether or not it changes the dimensions of the butt or the DAH, it has to be adjusted. Otherwise, it will draw blood with each shot. My thoughts are that if we start with a LOP that is closer to the average, instead of being built for the extreme short, the deviation from optimum butt dimension or DAH will be minimized.

Of course, a bespoke weapon, properly measured and built to specs will also take care of this. But with as many off the shelf doubles being produced today as there are, it just seems a better starting point could be achieved.

My 470 Rigby, with 28" barrels weighed in at around 11 pound 4 ounces. It was a pleasure to shoot.

If were shooting a 500, I would like to see 12 pounds.

For the curious novices regarding length of pull:
How does a bolt rifle rilfe L.O.P. compare to a double? I don't see many custom bolt guns made with a L.O.P. near 15+ inches. Are they measured differently?

quote:

Originally posted by Sid Post:
For the curious novices regarding length of pull:
How does a bolt rifle rilfe L.O.P. compare to a double? I don't see many custom bolt guns made with a L.O.P. near 15+ inches. Are they measured differently?

There are a lot of variables that affect the proper fit of a gun and LOP is probably the most commonly addressed. But things like thickness of chest, length of a person's neck, even thickness of clothing affect proper fit of a gun. Other variables affecting LOP's involvement in proper fit are Open or Closed grips. In order to fit correctly, the LOP, Cast On (or Off), and Drop at Heel must all be correct. LOP is probably the easiest to change on a completed gun.

But considering the difference between a bolt gun and double, remember that there are 2 triggers on a double, usually about 1" apart. So if you go with a LOP of 14.5" to the front trigger, the rear will be approximately 13.5". The problem with this is that when the rear trigger is fired, the gun recoils backward and drives the knuckle of the trigger finger into the sharp edge of the backside of the front trigger. Some doubles are listed with two Lengths of Pull. To the front trigger and to the rear. So a double rifle with a 15.5" LOP to the front trigger will have a rear trigger LOP of approximately 14.5"; that rear trigger being in a similar position as the single trigger on a bolt action rifle. So yes, they are different.

The normal pull length on an off the shelf new bolt rifle is around 13 1/2" and 14 1/2" for any shotgun designed for adults.

465H&H

My .500 weighs 10lb 11oz and, as it was stocked to fit me is a pleasure to shoot AND carry. It has a skeleton steel buttplate and I have even doubled it once due to a bad grip with no unpleasant results though it did spin me around a bit !! It seems to recoil less than a .470 O/U Dumoulin that I bought as a stop gap (that weighed 10 1/2 lbs). Another thing, when someone here asks what the "standard" weight was that is like asking how long a piece of string is. Barrel length, stock length etc, also remember the guns pre circa 1920 were often not bolstered so the whole action was bigger and thus heavier, best

My Evans 470 weighs 10.75 lbs and is balanced well with its 28" barrels. I wouldn't want it any heavier. There were a few times on the elephant trail I wouldn't have minded it weighing a bit less.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Bailey:
My .500 weighs 10lb 11oz and, as it was stocked to fit me is a pleasure to shoot AND carry. It has a skeleton steel buttplate and I have even doubled it once due to a bad grip with no unpleasant results though it did spin me around a bit !! It seems to recoil less than a .470 O/U Dumoulin that I bought as a stop gap (that weighed 10 1/2 lbs). Another thing, when someone here asks what the "standard" weight was that is like asking how long a piece of string is. Barrel length, stock length etc, also remember the guns pre circa 1920 were often not bolstered so the whole action was bigger and thus heavier, best

As you have so clearly illustrated Mike, when a gun is made for you and fits well, weight become a little less important. An ill fitting .500 at 13lbs would still be very unpleasant, as opposed to your relatively lightweight gun. I'm aiming for 11lbs on my custom built gun. I think it's a good weight for a .500 even if it fits well.

Maximus, I reckon it will come in at 11lbs dead with your LOP, maybe an oz or 2 higher, best

I'll be happy with that!

My 470 weighs in at 11.6 pounds. It's a joy to shoot but I wouldn't want to carry it all day in the hot sun.

I shot a 10.5 pound Sabatti 470 a couple of weeks ago. It's easy to handle but not so much fun to shoot.

I guess you just have to pick your poison. I love shooting the 470 but for hunting, my 500/.416 K-gun at 10.5 pounds would be my go to gun.

I know it's a matter of personal preference but I don't want anything to do with a 500 NE. Unless you build them around 12 pounds, they will beat you to death. Lately, I have been going in the other direction....9,3 and .375 doubles make up into nice, light, handy guns that are a joy to carry AND shoot but then again, elephant will never be on my itinerary.

Chris, I think either a 470 or 500 NE should weigh about 13 lbs. That way, when I toss those little barrels and make it into a 577, it will be just right :-)

Dave Bush, thats just not true, a .500 WHICH FITS YOU and weighs 11lbs is not a problem, I weigh 150lbs and am 5 11", I have shot about 50 rounds through mine (it was delivered last year in August when I took it to the Selous and is now having a service). I have doubled it once due to bad grip and even that wasn´t nasty ! OK, I don´t want to shoot one from a bench but you are exagerrating IMO, as J Hunter said, "if you hold it properly, it can only shove you and a shove can´t hurt" best

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Bailey:
Dave Bush, thats just not true, a .500 WHICH FITS YOU and weighs 11lbs is not a problem, I weigh 150lbs and am 5 11", I have shot about 50 rounds through mine (it was delivered last year in August when I took it to the Selous and is now having a service). I have doubled it once due to bad grip and even that wasn´t nasty ! OK, I don´t want to shoot one from a bench but you are exagerrating IMO, as J Hunter said, "if you hold it properly, it can only shove you and a shove can´t hurt" best

Mike, I have to agree with you. The 500NE is not all that bad. Just a big shove! Love mine enough that I'm having another built in the same caliber! Thought seriously about having my VC built in a 450/400 or even a 450NE. But when it got right down to it, I just couldn't see ever going to Africa and taking one of those calibers when I have a 500NE in the safe. It's the best of all worlds, similar recoil to the 470 class but with a significant step up in energy and frontal area, all without the added weight of the 577 and larger.

As Mike Jines said awhile back, "The 500NE is what all the double Nitro Express rounds aspire to be"!

You guys must be tougher than me. I have shot Merkel, Heym, and I think a Searcy 500. All of them kicked the snot out of me, especially the Heym. That one made my eyes cross... LOLOLOL. Compared to those guns, my 470 was a pussycat but then again, it's a Blaser, the BEST of the double rifles

Dave, I have always loved the quote you have at the bottom, I wonder where it originated ? I guess we will never know, best, Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by Sid Post:
For the curious novices regarding length of pull:
How does a bolt rifle rilfe L.O.P. compare to a double? I don't see many custom bolt guns made with a L.O.P. near 15+ inches. Are they measured differently?

There are a lot of variables that affect the proper fit of a gun and LOP is probably the most commonly addressed. But things like thickness of chest, length of a person's neck, even thickness of clothing affect proper fit of a gun. Other variables affecting LOP's involvement in proper fit are Open or Closed grips. In order to fit correctly, the LOP, Cast On (or Off), and Drop at Heel must all be correct. LOP is probably the easiest to change on a completed gun.

But considering the difference between a bolt gun and double, remember that there are 2 triggers on a double, usually about 1" apart. So if you go with a LOP of 14.5" to the front trigger, the rear will be approximately 13.5". The problem with this is that when the rear trigger is fired, the gun recoils backward and drives the knuckle of the trigger finger into the sharp edge of the backside of the front trigger. Some doubles are listed with two Lengths of Pull. To the front trigger and to the rear. So a double rifle with a 15.5" LOP to the front trigger will have a rear trigger LOP of approximately 14.5"; that rear trigger being in a similar position as the single trigger on a bolt action rifle. So yes, they are different.

Front versus back trigger ... I always thought the LOP was from the back trigger so, factoring in an inch or so for front trigger makes more sense now.

Clothing fit can be a big deal if you wear body armor. That's why you occasionally see police shotguns with a VERY short LOP.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Bailey:
Dave, I have always loved the quote you have at the bottom, I wonder where it originated ? I guess we will never know, best, Mike

Mike, I don't know where it came from either but I got it out of John Taylor's book, AFRICAN RIFLES AND CARTRIDGES.