OK Guys, I'm trying to open a new discussion. Hopefully this one will remain civil. The other one wore itself down to a bleeding nub.

This discussion hopefully will include thoughts from those who would like to own a decent double rifle, and from those who already shoot double rifles.

I want to start off with what I think is a very significant quote on ths subject from Jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

*I* have talked with the product managers directly. (there's been 3 over the last 2 years) and the largest remington dealer in texas. you can't "go direct" to remington. period. in fact, unless you are a distributor you can't order 1000 pieces and have remington fill that order. it goes through distributors.

Baikal can't bring their guns (that remington imports) into the country without the remington/spartan name on them. Licensing.. remington bought ALL of their production for X models, and they can't be brought into the us without remmie's approval.

no remmie, no double.

remmie isn't bringing them in due to STEEL FAILURES at high pressure 45/70 loads. They can't seem to get the lawyers happy enough on them, despite warnings.

So, remington AINT allowing release of them, even a 1000 piece order.

Jeffe is saying what I have been thinking is the situation for a long time. Frankly, it is my opinion that some of you guys are contributing to the nervousness of Remington's lawyers.

So as you don't misunderstand me - I like the 45-70, ---but--- in a double rifle with design limitations to withstand about 28,000 psi - CUP or whatever - is just asking for trouble. There has been way too much talk about rechambering and reboring, and possibly hotter 45-70 loads.

Besides, there are many different factory 45-70 factory loads available, which exceed the design limits of the Spartain SxS.

Really, I would like to read a shift in the discussion - and efforts to import or produce - away from the Spartain toward something that may work out. Frankly, I don't believe the Saprtain is a good idea in 45-70, and I really doubt it will ever see the US or Canada.

Another thing - idea - that may cause some controversy, is that I don't think the 45-70 is a good idea in a double rifle, unless the frame can withstand (way) in excess of 45,000 psi.

So, I believe that a double can be made at somewhere close to an affordable price - perhaps by Ruger. That is something that is more likely to happen and work out allright for the long term than anything Remington can do importing a Russian made double. That Russian double is doubtful quality, and can not be improved upon. This idea of a double rifle made available to us folks in the USA needs to be rethought.

Dreaming - if Ruger made a double rifle initially offered in 9.3x74 and 450/400, and available with two barrel switch sets, just think how well received that would be by all of us. I think many of us would sell off something or many things, or come up with the money somehow, to be the proud owner of such a double.

I know many favor the 45-70, but the performance of either the 9.3 or the 450/400 is better, and we don't have to worry about different pressure levels. These European cartridges have well established pressure specs, and the rifles designed for them have to match that specification. Plus, the 45-70 is rather fat, requiring a beefier receiver, and barrels.

If I bought a double, I would want a slender and quick handling thumper, chambered in 9.3x74R. If a 450/400 could fit the same frame - WOW.

Best Regards,

KB

how about a plain Stoeger in .405 win or 444 marlin?

in the teens and twenties till ww2 the belgians made some absolutely delightful 405 cal double rifles. they were quick and responsive - nice to handle and fast to shoot. the new merkel on the 28 ga frame is reminiscent of these.

generally a second set of bbls costs 50 % the price of the gun or rifle.

a two bbl set would not be cheap unless maybe sourced in spain. and the bigger the calibers wanted (450/400) the more expensive it will be.

the best idea i can suggest is to find a super price on a 2 bbl shotgun set in suitable gauge - probably 20. then contract with a double rifle
builder to monoblock them in the quantity and calibers desired.

maybe that way you could get a 2 bbl set for $3,000 or $4,000. maybe.

the browning bss is an excellent platform for building on - searcy used them between using ruger red labels and finally making his own action. the glitch here is where to get the monoblock for the second bbl set. any ideas ?

maybe our friends in the Far East will step up to the plate? they do some work for Browning.

i am thinking of doing some work on some huglu actions... they are "all the fasteners" including sideclips, and are monoblocked... CZ is bringing them in now, so I can find used ones fairly cheap...

the thought was to pull the barrels from the first one, make a functioning NE, and "see" what it can live through... before I bother making a monoblock for it.

anyone got a 20ga huglu with a pistol grip they want to get rid of, cheap? or a 16... the 12 is just too big...


the stoeger is not "desirable" for a rifle, in that it's just dual underlugs, no thrid and no side clips. same can be said for the CHARLES DALY mikuru, as those were available with double triggers, I don't think the BBS was (could be wrong)...

myself? I wouldn't build one without a greener xbolt and a rib extension

jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by kweber:
how about a plain Stoeger in .405 win or 444 marlin?

OK, I'm sure they would work. My thoughts on this subject at the moment lean more toward the rifle itself, and I'm trying to not become distracted by the particular performance chatacter of possible cartridge selections.

With something like this, I would think a rifle mfg would want to chamber in whatever is best suited - today - and where the most demand is.

So, I'm trying to not start a discussion about cartridges suitable for a double rifle, however it may be a worthy topic anyway - if it forwards rather than distracts from the main topic, which is a reasonably priced and decent quality double chambered in some cartridge giving the performance level to qualify as a dangerous game rifle.

For me, the 9.3x74 would be a minimum cartridge, with the .366, 286 gr bullet at 2300 fps, and the .411, 400 gr buller at 2100 fps a little better. While I don't think of these as truly big bore, I think there is a market niche there, and leave the really big bores .458 and bigger to the heavy doubles.

What I would like to see is a small frame, medium weight double. I don't know if this is reasonable with a cartridge such as the 450/400, but it is certainly reasonable with the 9.3x74R. The reason this great cartridge has survived over the years is because it is just right to fit into slender barrels, and still give adequate velocity. Perfection. And it will thump a cape buffalo, although the 450/400 would be better. The 9.3 is perfect for lots of stuff, such as all plains game, and brown bears, moose, caribou - darn near everything except the really big and dangerous stuff.

There are two reasons I mentioned the 9.3x74R and the 450/400. The first is because Ruger and Hornady thought enough of these two cartridges to offer the #1 and ammo. The second reason is that these two worthy cartridge's performance is well established. I think there is little to argue there, when the topic is limited to cartridges suitable in a double rifle.

Although the 405 Winchester and the 444 Marlin would work in a double, they are both shackled with factory loads with bullets having low sectional densities. When you load bullets with SD of .301 or greater, the twist rate may not be right, and the velocity certaily suffers. Where the velocity and sectional density of the 9.3 - 286 gr. and .411 - 400 gr are adequate. I would rather have a cartridge where the normal load is adequate for DG, and then I could always load down or use lighter bullets, than have a cartridge that just can't be loaded up sufficiently to qualify.

KB

can anyone compare the 30-06 version of the remington/spartan to the 20 ga or 12 ga coach gun????....i know the shotgun doesn't have the 3rd top fastener....i'd like to see a .303 british in a 22" bbl truck gun....i'd still like a 45-70.....ive got 6 or 7 months to wait on my chapuis 9.3....

thanks for the reply KB, my cartidge comments were not intened for DG, but merely for most game encountered by everyday guys in NA,excluding the large bruins. adding too much to a double as far as caliber and the Chapuis is the logical choise.

KB
I do not disagree with anything you said, however...

I believe the thinking at Remington was that they could make and sell a 45/70 double, and a lot of them, at a price that was not too much more than a 30-30 or a 45/70 lever.

I have hunted a fair amount with a 45/70 and even more with double rifles.

I would buy one and be perfectly happy to use loads equal to factory pressure Rem, Win, and Federal 300 gr loads.

That rifle with those loads would make a great deer, wild pig, black bear over bait rifle.

It would be perfect for it. There is no need to load it hotter.

This rifle is totally unsuitable for conversion to the 450 no2, as many have mentioned.
I have hunted with a British 450 no2 quite a bit, and there is NO WAY I would want to shoot a 450 No2 around 8.5 lbs, even if it was strong enough.

I hope Remington brings it out as it would be a great NA knock-a-bout double.

Do not try to make a silk purse out of a sows ear.

NE 450, I also agree with everything you say, and you have emphasized some of my points.

If Remington thinks they can sell lots of them, at a low price, then I say that there is a vast market for a rifle of a better quality for a moderate, yet reasonable price.

I agree with you about the sows ear, and also the notion of making a 450 NE is exactly the type of thing that makes Remington and the lawyers nervous. Although the vast majority of buyers like you and I will be satsified using the proper and modest ammo suitable for the Spartain, there a way more than just a few who can't help themselves, and trouble is inevitable.

Another idea is that IMO, if Remington was serious about this double, and it has proven suitable with the 30-06 in Canada, then they are barking up the wrong tree by trying to make the 45-70 work. If it's true the 30-06 is safe in this action, then pressure is not the problem, it's the thickness of the barrels, which may be too thin due to the much greater cartridge diameter of the 45-70.

So, if the 45-70 itself is the problem, why doesn't Remington just have those Russians make the damn thing in 9.3x74? It's a better cartridge for this purpose, and provides more thump than a low pressure 45-70, and the 9.3x74 is not fat.

Then we would have our cheap sows ear truck gun in a cartridge that will do the job.
KB

KB

KB
Again I agree with you. I have used a 9,3x74R and I think it is the best calibre under a 450/400 for a double rifle bar none, however, it is not "understood by the mainstream".
The 45/70 double would do [as a knock-a-bout] for the serious double rifle shooters, and at the same time attract all the "bubbas".

It needs to be as close to $500.00 as possible,[and certainly under $1000.00] to still be in the "bubba" range.

There is no reason why they could not bring it out in 9,3x74R as well... But I still think the 45/70 would outsell the 9,3... as there are probably more "bubbas" than "purists".

The Hornady factory 9,3x74R could have some impact on this for sure.

say "AMEN" for the bubbas and the double rifle which has now decreased in cost from $700 to $500.
is this the miracle of macroeconomics ?
wonders will never cease.

if ruger can make a #1 in your favorite calibers why not just superglue two of them together to make a double ? or weld them if you like.

N E 450, and Tomo577, I couldn't have said it better. In another way of saying it, I too have some trouble reconciling the bubba 45-70 double rifle with the whole and basic premise of owning a double rifle.

To explain what I mean--- when I was young, and hunted in Georgia, I was fortunate enough to have a Parker 20 gauge in the family, and I used it a lot for quail and rabbit. We also had another double 12 gauge in some brand I can’t remember, but it was a cheap clunker. The difference in the way the two shotguns handled was very evident. I don’t remember ever actually hitting anything with the 12 gauge, but I got lots of bob whites and cottontails with the Parker. It is difficult to wear out a Parker, but me and my brother wore that one out from use. Then I sold it for $2000. The Parker shotgun taught me about the aspect of balance and class, and the difference between a fine firearm and a sows ear. It is a lesson I shall never forget, and gentlemen, it is very relevant when we are discussing double rifles as well.

Please, Guys, I do not now own a double rifle, but I would like to. And when I buy one, I want it to handle like that 20 gauge Parker. I have never favored bubba rifles in a bolt action, so why should I start with a double? I don’t think my reasoning and feelings about this are unique. We all appreciate good looking, good functioning, and well handling firearms. Double rifles are special. This is not elitist ideas, it’s just practical.

The idea of a bubba double is difficult to grasp.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
N E 450, and Tomo577, I couldn't have said it better. In another way of saying it, I too have some trouble reconciling the bubba 45-70 double rifle with the whole and basic premise of owning a double rifle.
...

The idea of a bubba double is difficult to grasp.

KB

food for thought..
the kodiak doubles, in 47/50 and 9,3x74 where at the same price point less than a decade ago, as the remingtons... and with the adjusted cost of a euro (now to then) they are what, 2800 new?


funny enough, "double rifle elitests" blasted the pedersoli's as well... and now, that they are a bit more spendy, they seem to be okay...



the spartan's will make it in ... baikal had brought some in before big green bought up production. only a blind fool will believe they won't happen... the question is of when..

that remington is putting them off until the metal is better, KICKS ASS, and assures us that PMC loads won't turn it into a pocket surgery kit.

jeffe

jeffe
I hope they do make it in. And if they will take the PMC load, so much the better.

I will get one, I like the idea of a utility 45/70 double.

Tony,
me too... while it won't be throwing an HH on the 4wheeler, well, neither is shooting hogs in heavy brush...

and, frankly, i am MUCH more likely to take a rifle kickabout that runs 700 bucks than 1/4 million


which means USE IT, on a daily basis, rather than safe queen it, and "wait for africa".

jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
food for thought..
the kodiak doubles, in 47/50 and 9,3x74 where at the same price point less than a decade ago, as the remingtons... and with the adjusted cost of a euro (now to then) they are what, 2800 new.
Funny enough, "double rifle elitests" blasted the pedersoli's as well... and now, that they are a bit more spendy, they seem to be okay...
jeffe

[/QUOTE]

Jeffe,Sorry but I must disagree with the above statement. The Pedersoli was never in the same proposed price range as the Spartin! The rifles were comissioned by Col Mike Powasnic, the owner of TRAIL GUNS ARMORY , and there was a mistake by GUN & AMMO magazine stateing the rifle would be sold for $900 when and if it was finally available! I called Mike the day I read the article in G&A, to place an order for one! Mike told me that they had already found they could not sell the rifles for the low price of $900, and the price would start at $1295, but if I could make a deposit by September first, he would let me have one for the $900 price. I have the #134 off the line, and it took a year before I got my rifle. By the time I got mine the retail price had jumped to $1700. and now they are in the $3000 range but the rifle they are selling today is not the same rifle they sold to begin with, they are far better ballanced, and finished today than the origenals! That is why they seem to be more accepted today, than back then, not because of the "SPENDY" Snob effect! They are simply better rifles today than back when!

for the bubbas ...

a poor man can only afford to own the best.

otherwise he is constantly repairing or replacing second or third quality junk that was bought at a "bargain" price. buy a good one, buy it once, and let it serve you long and well.

consider that most of us have - more - guns than we really need. selling off those that you can live without will probably get you the $2,500 to have jason simpkins build you a double rifle.

expecting to get a $500.00 double - and as noted in above posts IN A DG CALIBER just seems a bit of an unrealistic expectation doesn't it ?

i never fail to be amazed at the guys that whine and cry that they would love to go to africa to hunt but can't afford it, its too expensive. yet when queried - don't you have a harley ? or didn't you just buy a new pickup, or a bass boat ? why don't you sell it ? their reply is ineviatebly ' WELL I COULDN'T DO THAT !"

their reply really shows the priority of things in their life. they want a double rifle only if someone gives it to them. they won't sacrifice anything to get it.

so we wait for the $500.00 DG CALIBER double rifle like we wait for the second coming of CHRIST. say amen brothers and sisters, amen

Kuum-bai-yaa, tomo577, you have such a way with words.

This question of just where are one's priorities is a good thing to think about. Is it in having stuff, or experiences, or some happy balance of both?

I truly think my happy balance is off - I need to go hunting more often far more than I need more stuff - especially rifles.

I think you are right - I definately could sell off some rifles and buy one of those beautiful Chapuis doubles in 9.3x74R, Then plan some trips to use it.

KB

Mac,
the peds where $769 in cabellas for 45/70 many moons ago... the spartan is 739 retail right now. even if they were 1200, that's FAR closer to 739 than a searcy (and I want a searcy)... in fact, they aren't even the excise tax on a searcy

Tom,

quote:

expecting to get a $500.00 double - and as noted in above posts IN A DG CALIBER just seems a bit of an unrealistic expectation doesn't it ?

it's 45/70, hardly a DG caliber, and yeah, you could "build it yourself" from these same actions with a set of 45/70 inserts... Judge G did exactly that at one time.

BUT...
dang it, let's be clear and grounded, a $299 stoeger shoots when you pull the trigger, and at least in my hands, is fun to bust skeet with... much to the dismay of the (previously) snickering high end custom shotgun owners... i took mine out of the box, and missed THREE the first round ... admittedly, that was nearly my best round ever (i am generally a 17-19 shooter) .. but those 10K O/U sure did look pretty, missing...

the point being, PRICE has nothing to do with COST.. and NEITHER has much to do with quality....

i've never seen a vintage 40K double shoot nearly as good as a 12K searcy....

then again, people snickered at butch's gun (and still do) for it not being a proper double.


oh well....

should remmington come out with this, I'll be of the first to own one, and probably the first to shoot it to a smooth bore....


jeffe

jeffe - you are right about the shooting quality of a weapon not being directly related to the price. especially in the world of mass produced firearms today. seems a lot of trap, skeet & clays shooters have to have a gun that is "better than yours" thought you may outshoot them.

it does seem from experience that the better built english double rifles i've owned ( name brands) do shoot very well despite their age. if they have been maintained & the bores cared for they should. unless they are truly worn out, or cordite eroded away.

the well built rifles had the quality and accuracy built into them. it was expected by the customers.

those fancy multiple leaf sights were actually shot in so you could use them. sadly the cost to buy an english rifle today - even used - is prohibitive for most of us. new made ones built by best quality makers are reserved for the arab sheiks, royalty and people with a lot more money than brains...

kabluewy

if i caused you to think about what you really want - yahoo !

good for me, but even better for you.

stuff is stuff. only when you are unable to use the stuff do you realize it is just stuff. but the memories you get from a hunt, or any adventures stay in your memory forever.

i started africa hunting late - i was 57, but i'm glad i did then. 3 + years later i was disabled and my "real" hunting days were over.

but the memories and the trophies i'll always have. esp the memories.

it is good to rethink ones priorities and -NOT-
put off doing those things you dream of if there is a way to do them now. once your health goes you can sit in your wheelchair and kick yourself saying "i should have",

besides, the pleasure and joy of owning a good double rifle will give you years of satisfaction ..... and you won't have so many guns to take care of !

I'm quite happy w. my little CZ/Huglu SxS..and I'll be happier when I get back to TX to order a custom Huglu through DeHaan.

Now, if you could find a way to put a 405 Winchester or a 45-70 DR on a CZ 410 or 28 ga frame, I think it would make a lovely little gun to tote through the woods for deer, pigs, anything else.

The closest one could get for a decent inexpensive double is probably these Sabatti made SbS, aviable in 8x57JRS and 9,3x74R,
Price is in Europe about USD $2300.

I talked to Mr Sabatti in Italy a year ago and he confirmed that they could make a 450/400 version of the rifle -but didn't have any orders..

husky,
if he can leave LOP to 15", i am in for a 450/400.. should weigh no more than 9.5#, and mine should be 8.5

seriously, let's do this...

then again, if he's going 8.25# 9,3x74s on the shelf, Lets get together a group buy!!

jeffe

jeffeosso,
Sabatti's Slug SbS looks like this;



Much better?

I will try to get in contact with Mr Sabatti again, his english is however worser than mine and his secretary's non existing...
You can always try to get an answer from Sabatti, Italy at; info@sabatti.com

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Mac,
the peds where $769 in cabellas for 45/70 many moons ago... the spartan is 739 retail right now. even if they were 1200, that's FAR closer to 739 than a searcy (and I want a searcy)... in fact, they aren't even the excise tax on a searcy

jeffe

Jeffe, I think you are confusing the price of $739! If they sold it for that they sold it cheaper that the wholesale from pedersoli, which they were unable to sell at the origenal $900 price! I would be very interested in seeing a scaning of a page from any catalog that priced a Pedersoli double rifle for cartridges at $739, or for that matter $939, or $1000. Because I have one of the origenals that was mistakenly advertized as a $900 rifle, but was priced at $1275 by the time they were available in 1988, and I ordered mine in Aug of 1987. Because I had called as soon as the mistaken price came out in the magazine,they let me have it at the $900 price. The serial Nos started at "100" mine is No 134, the 34th rifle made, and have owned several since, and none of them ever came in at any $739 That was just about the price of the muzzleloader double Kodiak, not the KODIAK Mark 1V 45-70! Below is a letter from the importer to me in regard to my order in 1987, before production started. As far as I know the rifles never sold for less than $1275 USD, and the price climed from there!

quote:

Col. Michael Powasnick with Phil Spangenberger of "Cuns & Ammo Magazine" in Cardone, ltaly.
(Photo by Phil Spangenberger)




SPECIFICATIONS



Manufacturer Mode I
Type
Locks Operation Caliber
Barrel Length Ove raIl Length Barrel Type Stocks
Finish
Sight~
Distributor
Price
Expect shipment 60-90 days.


D. Pedersoli - Italv KODIAL MK IV Breechloading
w/outside hammers - case harden color lop Lever break open breech
45/70
24 Inches
42 1/2 Inches Round - Tapered
2 pc. Pistol Grip European Walnut
Hand Checkered - Oiled 2 pc Stock 'iv/swivels Adj. Rear for Windage and Elev.
Front Ramp w/bead
Trail Guns Armory
1422 East t-1ain
League City, Texas 77573 $1275.00
We are now taking orders w/$100 deposit.

quote:

Originally posted by husky:
jeffeosso,
Sabatti's Slug SbS looks like this;



Much better?

I will try to get in contact with Mr Sabatti again, his english is however worser than mine and his secretary's non existing...
You can always try to get an answer from Sabatti, Italy at; info@sabatti.com

HUSKY, this is not a rifle but a smooth bore shotgun with iron sights! The other one in a post above is a rifle.

MacD37,
I think that I mentioned that!
Sabatti SbS slug, slugs a shoot from smothe bore or rifled shootguns.
What I was reffering to is the much nicer stock of the slug shoot gun -which is not a rifle

-correct MacD37

I seriously doubt if any American gun Manufacture could make a double rifle in the same quality/price range as an European company.

I have been perfectly happy with my 9,3 Chapuis, which I think is a great value for the money, but it is a little pricey for most non double rifle lovers.

The idea of a double under $1000, even if it was a 45/70, [which might just be the best calibre for a double in that price range] would be to introduce the double rifle to the mainstream hunter.

Then if he/she really liked it they could move up to bigger and better things.

For those of us who are already double rifle lovers and owners it would give us a knock-a-bout, tackle box,truck gun, double.

Again I thing the 45/70 is the perfect caliber for this.

For a more "serious" double I believe that the 9,3x74R is the best calibre, bar none under the power range of a 450/400.

However for a "bubba" double I like the 45/70.

If Remington does not bring this gun out i may just have to bite the byllet and get one of those Featherweight 9,3 Merkels with the 21" bbls.

A little pricey for an ATV/truck knock-a-bout, but they are sweet, and I am a purist.

I also have the simplest of tastes.....
I am always satisified with the best.

I sent mr Sabatti an Email telling him I wuld like to B-U-Y one. We shall see what the response is.
IMHO the 9,3 would be the perfect starter DR, and I can live with the price. I also have a small sum to wager that Tomo577's friend in Belgium can get one of these to Tom.

regards,

Rich
DRSS

Rich
For hunting here in the good ole USA the 9.3x74R is PERFECT.

PS. It does a great job in Africa on plains game, as well as cape buff and elephant.

I agree about the 9.3x74. About three years ago, I couldn't find a rifle that I could afford in that caliber, and I just wanted some experience with the cartridge, so I had a barrel made to fit an Encore. I just wanted a good platform to work with the cartridge, and the Encore is fun anyway. I'm still working with various loads, and working on a stock to fit, but so far I really like the cartridge, and it would be my first choice in a double. Now that I've had a chance to work with the cartridge, using handloads, and factory loads, I understand what there is to like about it, and why it is a survivor.

I am seriously considering a barrel in 450/400, now that hornady is supposed to be making the ammo and brass.

KB

man i like the looks of that slug gun a lot. any idea what the US price would be?

about $1200 USD.it's a smoothbore.

Although this isn't a SxS, it looks good, and is available in 9.3x74R, and several other smaller calibers. I think the price is around $1700 for the field model. It's interesting anyway.

http://www.marocchiarms.com/index.php?menu=55&sprache=0&product_id=15

KB

If the problem remington is having with the 45-70 is not enough meat around the cartridge to hold up to high pressure loads, and the rifle is based on a baikal 20 ga frame. Why don't they just base it off a 12 ga frame?

If and when these rifle make it to the market I hope they don't offer thier single trigger model. I shot several rounds of clays with a friends baikal 12 ga w/ single trigger and it occassionally doubled. If they are worried about the rifles holding together, 2 rounds of 45-70 at the same time wouldn't be good. The entire issue should be eliminated with 2 triggers, but I've also never had a red label double-up on me.