quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
To answer your question--no.

Doubles were very commmon then and often the basic rifles were in stock, in various states of completion, waiting for an order. The order could specify caliber, weight, barrel length, etc. A rifle would then be picked from the rack and completed to the specs ordered. I'm sure that's why we find .450s weighing 13 pounds. Many customers wanted a double in a certain caliber or chambering, but if weight or barrel length was not specified by the buyer, the company delivered what was on hand.

The buying public for double rifles was different then than it is today. Lots of finely engraved doubles were made for dealer's stock and sold to the trade. In the case of A&N perhpas the custoemr ordered, and they found a rifle and spent 22 days having the rifle sent to them, adding their name and serial number, etc. But to build in 22 days--no.

I hope this helps.
Cal
PS. When Steve A. stays with you for our May shoot, will you put him up in your "Capstick Room" with all of PHS's books on the shelf, life-sized posters of PHC, and his films running in continuing loops? Will you and the Mrs. wear matching monocles to make him feel at home?

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:
Well, it was between Cal's "Sullivan Room" and your "PHC Suite." I went with tradition over showman, you and Joyce will get the pleasure of my company!!

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:
Well, it was between Cal's "Sullivan Room" and your "PHC Suite." I went with tradition over showman, you and Joyce will get the pleasure of my company!!

Just leave Chipolopolo home.

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
A&N was a huge clearing house for all sporting goods--like Abercrombie and Fitch in the states. They sold rifles and shotguns and pistols from all makers--not just UK makers but also Winchester, Colt, and other US makers.

When they sold a rifle with their name and serial number on it it was made to their order by another maker or a maker (such as Leonard) who only made for other firms and did not sell under his own name). If a customer went to A&N with a very specific order, the specifications were sent to a maker for the build with the A&N name.

Somewhere are the serial nubmer records for A&N, but I can't remember where they are.

I'm sure others more knowledgeable than I can elaborate more.

Cal

PS. I'm not sure if the Army and Navy brand in the States was related or an off shoot to the UK A&N.

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:
Can someone give me a Reader's Digest version of Army & Navy? Were they rifles built by others and sold under this name? Was it a military only thing? Purpose?

Thanks

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:
Can someone give me a Reader's Digest version of Army & Navy? Were they rifles built by others and sold under this name? Was it a military only thing? Purpose?

Thanks

Army Navy

PS - Cal, Anything else you need to know about doubles, don't hesitate to ask. I'll ask Joyce for you.

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:
Can someone give me a Reader's Digest version of Army & Navy? Were they rifles built by others and sold under this name? Was it a military only thing? Purpose?

Thanks

Army Navy

PS - Cal, Anything else you need to know about doubles, don't hesitate to ask. I'll ask Joyce for you.

Jim:
Sometimes you are a PITA--everyone agrees on this. Only one question remains: do you study and work to be a pain or does it come naturally, i.e. a gift you were born with?
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:
Can someone give me a Reader's Digest version of Army & Navy? Were they rifles built by others and sold under this name? Was it a military only thing? Purpose?

Thanks

Army Navy

PS - Cal, Anything else you need to know about doubles, don't hesitate to ask. I'll ask Joyce for you.

Jim:
Sometimes you are a PITA--everyone agrees on this. Only one question remains: do you study and work to be a pain or does it come naturally, i.e. a gift you were born with?
Cal

He's "Organized"

quote:

Can someone give me a Reader's Digest version of Army & Navy? Were they rifles built by others and sold under this name? Was it a military only thing? Purpose?

quote:

Originally posted by enfieldspares:

quote:

Can someone give me a Reader's Digest version of Army & Navy? Were they rifles built by others and sold under this name? Was it a military only thing? Purpose?

Army and Navy was a "Co-Operative" store in that the members shared, supposedly, the profits. Similarly there was a "Civil Service Stores".

The names reflecting no direct connection to the Army, Navy, nor Civil Service but the member background profile from which its members most likely would have come from.

Thus mostly soldiers, sailors (officer rank) and civil servants who posted throughout the British Empire and at home wanted mail order catalogue shopping.

It's guns were never made by Army and Navy as they never had a factory. But bought in already made up and engraved as "Army and Navy" by (mostly) Webley! So most Army and Navy sidelocks are Webley made sidelocks.

So in fact pretty much waht William Evans was doing at the exact same time.

Years ago I purchased a Webley & Scott fine bar lock hammer gun. It needed new barrels but cost was well beyond its worth.

So I simply swapped barrels from an identical Army and Navy branded identical gun. Other than a few small files strokes the barrels exchanged perfectly.

As, of course, although both bench made guns they'd been made in fact on the same bench, in the same factory, to the same blueprint.

Yet, oddly, the moniker Webley & Scott made that very same, identical gun but finished as an Army and Navy less desirable.

Hah! What's in a name! In truth, with guns, a lot!

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
To answer your question--no.

Doubles were very commmon then and often the basic rifles were in stock, in various states of completion, waiting for an order. The order could specify caliber, weight, barrel length, etc. A rifle would then be picked from the rack and completed to the specs ordered. I'm sure that's why we find .450s weighing 13 pounds. Many customers wanted a double in a certain caliber or chambering, but if weight or barrel length was not specified by the buyer, the company delivered what was on hand.

The buying public for double rifles was different then than it is today. Lots of finely engraved doubles were made for dealer's stock and sold to the trade. In the case of A&N perhpas the custoemr ordered, and they found a rifle and spent 22 days having the rifle sent to them, adding their name and serial number, etc. But to build in 22 days--no.

I hope this helps.
Cal
PS. When Steve A. stays with you for our May shoot, will you put him up in your "Capstick Room" with all of PHS's books on the shelf, life-sized posters of PHC, and his films running in continuing loops? Will you and the Mrs. wear matching monocles to make him feel at home?

Got three Berets on order. We will present Steve with his at the airport.

....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1
DRSS Charter member
"If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982

Hands of Old Elmer Keith

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
The only problem is, MAC, is they don't believe it unless it comes from you.
Cal

quote:

If I bought four berets would you feel better? Big Grin

Jim

quote:

Originally posted by Omnivorous_Bob:

quote:

If I bought four berets would you feel better? Big Grin

Jim

That's some funny stuff Jim

My first "bore" gun, purchased for the princely sum on $40 when I was in the 8th grade, was also from a maker who, like Jeffery and Army&Navy, outsourced all of their production. I killed my first deer with it and own it to this day and always wanted to learn its history. Does anyone know who has access to the Montgomery Ward records?

Bob

quote:

Originally posted by Omnivorous_Bob:
Jim, I'm really looking forward to the May shoot and am delighted that you and Joyce will attend.

I googled this to no avail, but I vaguely recall that Army/Navy used a simple substitution cipher in their ledger to show their cost and retail price on each gun. It was something along the lines of the letters in "MAKEPROFIT" equaling the digits "0123456789" or "123567890". Anyone else have any info on this? The first column in your second photo has a bunch of letters that are close to this convention but not exact.

Rob