quote:

Originally posted by jorge:

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
When Merkel and doubling are the topic, can Jorge be far behind! :-)

Just doing my civic duty....

...................................................................

I can't count the number of doubles that have come to me for doubling..In 95% of the cases it has to do with the size of ones hand or the length of the fingers and 95% cured the problem by shooting the rear trigger first..Butch Searcy also is a proponent of this..as am I..the old adage that doubles are regulated front trigger, rear trigger is valid only to the point that they have two triggers..They shoot the same POI and same size group either way..

Not saying that you do this, just food for thought on the subject of doubling..Ive seen it so many times.

Ray,
Well said. And very tactful.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
I can't count the number of doubles that have come to me for doubling..In 95% of the cases it has to do with the size of ones hand or the length of the fingers and 95% cured the problem by shooting the rear trigger first..Butch Searcy also is a proponent of this..as am I..the old adage that doubles are regulated front trigger, rear trigger is valid only to the point that they have two triggers..They shoot the same POI and same size group either way..

Not saying that and of you do this, just food for thought on the subject of doubling..Ive seen it so many times.

Why don't you do a search here and see how many doubling incidents have been discussed here with other makes? (rhetorical question).

Having to change what is otherwise standard operating procedure (SOP) of firing the right barrel first (there is a reason as to why trigger pulls are different from the right and left on doubles), reminds me of when the F-14 Tomcat came out with the "Jimmy Carter" engines. Pilots had to "fight the throttle position" instead of the airplane's flight characteristics. The fat-finger/strumming excuse just does not stand up.

I have to agree . . . if doubling was solely and simply attributable to operator error . . . then why is there apparently so much more operator error with Merkels than other makes of doubles. Similarly, if doubling is solely and simply attributable to operator error . . . then why is it that individuals that double Merkels seem to be able to shoot other makes of doubles with no issues. No, there is some underlying design issue with Merkels that must make them more susceptible to doubling or being doubled even if "strumming" is occurring.

First of all having experience multiple doubles from my Merkel 500 I am very aware of how I handle the triggers so put the strumming to rest. I have 3 other doubles with double triggers including another Merkel 140 in 375HH and it has never doubled, along with a Sabatti in 9.3 and remington in 45-70. I have developed a habit of front trigger first so changing that motor skill is not a solution, a double should not double period.

Mike & raw, Precisely!

In 25 years of big game hunting I have seen a good number of Doubles come through my camp.
I have witnessed one Chapuis 470 doubling and 5 Merkels , 470's and 500's , do the same. None of the others did.

In late 2007 I got the last 500NE 140 out of the first batch to be imported into the US with ejectors
for my tuskless ele hunt in 2008.

The weather was really cold when I received the rilfe, found a load that regulated. I was single loading the rifle (key point). I decided to wait until spring and warmer weather to do any further shooting.

Fast forward to mid May, first range session with my new double in the new year, loaded 2 rounds, doubled.

After an unpleasant conversation with Herbert, the gunsmith at GSI, I sent it back. He stongly intimated that I did not know what I was doing and talked down to me during the whole conversation.

Got it back with a note nothing was wrong with it.

Yup, still doubled

After a loud conversation with Danny Spahn it went back a second time. I ended up taking a 458 Lott bolt gun on my tuskless hunt as I was running out of time. Alan Shearing and I got charged by a cow and ended up involved in a self-defense shooting.
We shot her in full charge at about 1 meter. It would have been nice to have a double in that situation. As it turned out, it did not matter
whether I had a bolt gun or a double, but it could have had the roll of the dice been different.

I suspect that when they regulated the rifle at the factory they single loaded it; it should not have been shipped in that kind of condition.


GSI admitted later that there was an issue with the geometry between the sears and the hammers and that when the re-design was completed at the factory they would install new sears and hammers.

After quite some time I got the rifle back, ascertained the doubling issue was resolved and sold the rifle to an AR member.

Don't see another Merkel double in my future.

Doc, you obviously have fat fingers. Good thing you're not a proctologist!

In the 1990s I had a .577 Nitro by Cashmore double on me. Shortly after I began firing the left barrel first and never had a double after that.

During the AK double shoots someone manages to double one or more of my rifles. It happens enough that, in my fear of a dropped rifle, I give the newbies one cartridge at time. This year it was my .450 no2. The past two years it was my .600 (a gent from New Zealand and a local MD), and before that it was my .450 no2 with a local chef. I've never had anyone double my hammer doubles as one hammer is cocked and fired then the next. And, it is only on my doubles that have a bit of recoil. The .450-400 or .350 no2 have never doubled. My .500 nitro has.
Cal

Herbert called me but I was not home so I have left 4 messages with no return call, hope he is fine. He also talked down t me the first time I spoke to him about the gun doubling. I had the same experience with Sig Sauer when my agency was having problems with some 226's, when they returned the gun a note was "use more oil" no mention of what the problem was. Wee had one guy who bumped the sig with the butt of a shotgun and the gun went off shooting him in the lower leg, sig stood firm that the only way it would go off was depression of the trigger????

quote:

Originally posted by Steven Dawson:
MacD37,
My first Merkel 500 was one of the older guns, it was serial number 50005 and it never doubled. The last one was one of the new ones so you are probably onto something. I know it wasn't an issue of strumming the trigger in my case because I always shoot the rear trigger first.

Can't recall my serial number of my 500 ,
it was in the first year of import,'94/95 as I recall.

Anyway it doubled first day I had it,
more than once, on more than one shooter,.
It went back was serviced/returned, and I sold it. Not certain how it has faired since then.

I owned several English and European DR's before the new Merkel and never had doubling issues.
(though I did have a hundred year old sear give-up and fire a right barrel once)

Sorry Jorge, I disagree with your post and maybe you should research the problem as opposed to an off the wall statement such as that...pulling the front trigger on a double IS the main reason for doubling, that an too light trigger pulls.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Sorry Jorge, I disagree with your post and maybe you should research the problem as opposed to an off the wall statement such as that...pulling the front trigger on a double IS the main reason for doubling, that an too light trigger pulls.

. . . then why are they designed to have the front trigger pulled first?

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Sorry Jorge, I disagree with your post and maybe you should research the problem as opposed to an off the wall statement such as that...pulling the front trigger on a double IS the main reason for doubling, that an too light trigger pulls.

Well Ray, before posting off the wall comments like I haven't done "research", how about this; Do a search HERE on folks other than me that have had issues with Merkels doubling. Personally, I've witnessed a few over the years here at our range, spoken to many fellow members at DSC about this malady. Even Sabbattis don't have that problem... HINT: We're probably over fifteen accounts here. If you like them, well good for you. Personally, I consider them the Model 700 of doubles...

Jorge, I think you're now officially off the Merkel Christmas Card List :-)

My Westley Richards Droplock 470 doubled. I had bought it directly from Simon Clode who used it successfully on an elephant hunt with Johan Calitz in Botswana. The rear trigger was very light and I was told that this was due to incorrect handling of the spring. Hmm.I had it repaired and sold it. Replaced by a Heym 88 in 450. The WR was beautiful but I never looked back.

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
In the 1990s I had a .577 Nitro by Cashmore double on me. Shortly after I began firing the left barrel first and never had a double after that.

During the AK double shoots someone manages to double one or more of my rifles. It happens enough that, in my fear of a dropped rifle, I give the newbies one cartridge at time. This year it was my .450 no2. The past two years it was my .600 (a gent from New Zealand and a local MD), and before that it was my .450 no2 with a local chef. I've never had anyone double my hammer doubles as one hammer is cocked and fired then the next. And, it is only on my doubles that have a bit of recoil. The .450-400 or .350 no2 have never doubled. My .500 nitro has.
Cal

So Cal you are saying that (presuming none of your doubles have a mechanical issue) in all cases of doubling with your guns it is the strumming of the second trigger that is the cause of the double discharges, including your own with your 577 Cashmore?

Of course your hammer guns will not double if only one hammer is cocked at a time, would be interesting though to cock the other on an empty chamber and see if someone strums the trigger and releases the second hammer?

Interesting that you say you now fire the left barrel, rear trigger, first and do not have doubles and yet mechanically you would expect to have a greater chance of a double discharge as most say the front trigger pull is lighter on most doubles i.e. if there was ever a chance that the shock of firing was going to release the second sear and fire the second cartridge it would be if the lighter set sear was left till last!

From your experience it seems that the greatest cause of double discharges with double guns is strumming the second trigger!

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
Jorge, I think you're now officially off the Merkel Christmas Card List :-)

It also rhymes with "Angela" can't stand her either!

I owned a sxs double trigger 12 mag that had a mod/full choked barrel. The gun would double if the rear trigger (full) barrel was fired first. This would happen so infrequently since the greter percentage of shots was with the mod front trigger. Since the gun only had extractors and when it doubled I blamed it on overcharging the shell. The time I noticed the fired shell I blamed myself of throwing out the live shell. The day I figured it out I had opened the gun to check which shells I had loaded a short time latter I had the gun double and saw the spent casings.

I did have an Antonio Zoli O/U with double triggers that while duck hunting had the gun double do to the heavy gloves, never doubled again.