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I bought a new Merkel 140 in 500 NE a couple of years ago, I had multiple incidents of both barrels firing at or near the same time with factory 570 grains cartridges. I sent it back to the factory and the smiths stated they cleaned it and added a shim. I said to myself clean their was only 12 rounds fired, mostly doubling. The smith asked me if I knew how to fire a double and I said of course...one barrel at at time secondly in those incidents that I did not know it would double and it did there was only one hold in the target meaning the second barrel was delayed firing, makes you wonder where the other bullet went.. Nevertheless I took the gun out once after coming from the factory and fired maybe 8 to 10 rounds and no doubles. Well I took it out yesterday and it doubled on the first firing. The second barrel discharged at about the peak recoil of the rifle since a 570 solid hit the baffle at about 7 yards about 9 feet off the ground, the baffle was made of concrete sandwiched between steel plate and cratered a 1.5" hold in the steel plate but did not go through, I don't know where the shrapnel went but there was only 3 other shooters on the range about 60 feet from me. The recoil is bad enough with a single barrel going off but there is no confusion when bought go off. I put the gun away and called the factory when I got home, right now we are playing phone tag but I am a little disappointed with this gun so I would have to say look to another manufacturer for your next double. I have 2 other Merkels and acouple from different manufacturers and never had a problem. NRA Life Member, ILL Rifle Assoc Life Member, Navy | ||
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Heym . . . intercepting sears. Mike | |||
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Please don't take offense to this...but are you sure you are not strumming? I have strummed the back trigger twice on mine but other than that...nary a double. I shoot 10 rounds a week in mine and have shot over 100 rounds since the weather warmed up this year. See my rifle in the thread below. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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No offense either, but firing a second barrel after the first one has reached full recoil would be a very slow hammer fall; I expect the second sear to release almost immediately if it is going to release due to recoil. Hardly any delay. Has any one else fired it? | |||
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I have owned doubles made by Boswell, Holland, Rigby, Blaser, Lang, Manton, Cogswell, VC, Heym, Krieghoff, Chapuis, Sabatti, Bernadelli, Ritterbusch, Searcy and maybe a couple of others. The only one I have ever had double . . . doubled twice . . . was a Merkel.  Mike | |||
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I am not strumming, I have shot doubles for over 50 years recoil is fairly quick and sounded as one shot. I have tested this gun the first time by firing a live round in the left barrel and an empty in the right and vise versa and when the right barrel was fired upon opening both shells would be ejected so strumming is not the issue NRA Life Member, ILL Rifle Assoc Life Member, Navy | |||
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  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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I had a Merkel 470. I pull the trigger 4 times. It shot 8 times. I was done with it. The only other time I have ever had a gun double was when I shot the back trigger first. | |||
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Was there not a ele hunting video clip of your rifle doubling? Was that the Merkel? | |||
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Yes. Mike | |||
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Why bring that ele hunting? | |||
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I have had five Merkel 140's over the years and all were fine except one. One of the two 500's I had doubled on me several times. When the rifle did it there was no delay, it made one loud boom like a single shot. I sent it back to Merkel and they repaired it. It didn't double again but it still dented the primer on the unfired cartridges which does not give you a lot of confidence that it's not going to double again. I still like Merkel, but now have a Heym. | |||
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. . . that was the first time it doubled. Mike | |||
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Merkel are not the only rifle that double fires but does seem to happen more so with this brand. Perhaps because there are so many out there? In any case, I enjoyed mine and would happily venture into the Jesse again with one. | |||
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Denting the primer without actually dropping the tumbler makes me think there is a headspace problem (too much headspace and pin protrusion) or the striker return spring is too weak or broken and the striker is moving forward during recoil. Or a combination of both. Does the Merkel have bushed strikers and springs on the pins? Should be easy to check that if so. | |||
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Had it happen just once on my Merkel .500NE. After a couple hundred rounds the front trigger bent ever so slightly and a strum happened. Got a new trigger made and fitted... no more trouble. | |||
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Same, Only double I have had that doubled was a Merkel in 500. It was not while I was shooting it but it was a buddy that it doubled on. I think he strummed the triggers but you never know. Have had 5-6 other brands and no other issues yet. Mac | |||
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That makes 15, but standing by for the Merkel apologists who accuse me of either lying or the same bullshit 700 owners claim about the POS Remington safety "operator error". jorge USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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Or how about just a properly crafted rifle. My VC does not have this, and I've never had the issue and come to think of it, I dont' think any VC owners have reported this malady EVER. USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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Proper firing pin (striker) protrusion is a problem that is often found on double guns and rifles. Generally, on such a gun or rifle with correct headspace, firing pin protrusion should be at 1mm (.395"). | |||
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Huvius, I don't have the Merkel anymore so I don't know what type strikers it had. I doubt there was a problem with the firing pin or spring because it doubled the first three times it was shot new from the box. I then sent it back to Merkel for repair. When it came back is when I noticed the denting of the primer on the unfired cartridges. The rifle shot great, but I just didn't trust it anymore. As I said earlier I like the Merkel, but thought I would try a Heym this time around. | |||
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It seems to me that the doubling that has been happening is on the newer mono-blocked rifles with ejectors rather than the older shoe lump rifles with extractors. I have been owning Merkel double shotguns and double rifles for many years, and have never had problem one with a Merkel firearm. As we speak, I have two Merkel double rifles, a 9.3X74R 140E-1 with ejectors and a 470NE Safari 140-2 with extractors. I got a double discharge with the 9.3 because I was so used to larger bore doubles, I misjudged the recoil the 9.3 developed and strummed the back trigger the first time I fired it. Both the rifles are over ten years old, with hundreds of rounds down the tubes and neither has doubled again when I'm shooting them. Both have been doubled by friends shooting them but in every case the shooter was not used to double rifles, and I believe they strummed the triggers. I have had two people double the 470NE when pulling the back trigger first. I couldn't understand why or how they got the DD when pulling the back trigger first, because I regularly pull either trigger first and do not get double discharges. Also it seems to me the people who have been getting the DDs in most cases are shooting the 500NE rifles with far more recoil that the 470NE rifles and much of this may be a poor hand position and grip by the trigger hand on the heavy recoiling 500NE rifles allowing the rifle to back up under recoil, and move forward as the shooters body pushes the rifle forward again causing a double discharge by strumming. ..................................................................It is a puzzle, and may be the new rifles that have features that have been added like ejectors on the big bore rifles, and the change to the mono-block barrel sets. All I know is I don't ever get DDs with my Merkels but others who are not used to big bores or double rifle of any size do! .................................................................   ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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Huvius and Transvall, After I made the last post I started thinking about what you posted and you are probably right. I just took it for granted that Merkel would have checked the headspace, strikers and springs as part of the inspection, but that very well might not have ben the case. | |||
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MacD37, My first Merkel 500 was one of the older guns, it was serial number 50005 and it never doubled. The last one was one of the new ones so you are probably onto something. I know it wasn't an issue of strumming the trigger in my case because I always shoot the rear trigger first. | |||
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As I said above, I have had two people double the 470NE Merkel when pulling the back trigger first, so that is no guarantee the rifle can't be doubled by pulling the back trigger first. I must admit my 470NE Merkel has a front trigger pull that is a good bit lighter than the back trigger, but as I said I don't get DDs no matter which trigger I pull first. Maybe I'm just lucky with the eight or ten Merkel double rifles and shotguns I have owned a shot hundreds of rounds through! ...................................................................... ....................... ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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A good point made.The shooter must be trained to hold a heavy weapon and have complete control of the aiming and trigger release operation.I find this challenging especially when I shoot my long,heavy barrelled and light triggered 308.I've hunted with a rifle with double set triggers and a double trigger shotgun as a youth and that helps.That said, I am not saying that these rifles do not have some mechanical fault. | |||
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Both my Merkel doubles have bushed strikers, and retractor springs. I don't know about the new Mono-block rifles but I would assume they have bushed pins as well. I'm sure the change to mono-block barrels from the more expensive Shoe-lump barrels was to pay for the addition of ejectors in the newer rifles maybe that is some of the reason for the DDs as well! If so I have to agree that was not a good move! ......................................................................  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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The "strumming" explanation rings a little hollow in my view. Let's assume that each and every instance of a Merkel double rifle doubling is attributable to "strumming". Why is "strumming" such a significant issue with Merkel's whereas with other doubles it is not? Is it something in the trigger design? The layout of the grip? The orientation or size of the triggers? Other? When you have an issue with one brand of rifle . . . whether it is purely mechanical or operator related . . . that seems to be disproportionally related to that brand as opposed to others . . . there is some inherent design issue seems to me that is causing the issue. While there may be incidents of "strumming" with other doubles, those incidents as best I can tell are much more episodic than in the case of Merkel. If "strumming" was purely an operator issue with absolutely no connection to the design or function of a particular rifle, one would expect to hear of numerous "strumming" incidents with other brands as well. Just an observation. Mike | |||
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THIS. All of a sudden, it seems the only people with this affliction are Merkel shooters. That and there's also been a couple of reports of the triggers bending straight. USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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Mine was a bit older one before ejectors came on them. Mac | |||
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Just wait, another "yeah but" will ensue... USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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I think Merkel may actually have an excellent Marketing Opportunity here actually... "Merkel...Double the stopping power of Competitors..GUARANTEED....!!" Or.. "Merkel.. kills Dangerous game Twice as Dead!!! every time...." | |||
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Mine is an extractor/shoe-lump version. Like I said I have strummed the triggers twice and doubled it. But I am certain I strummed. Each time I strummed the triggers...it was after a long dry spell of not shooting it and poor technique. I have shot my rifle a lot. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Show us on the doll where the Merkel rep touched you. Hunting: Exercising dominion over creation at 2800 fps. | |||
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HAHA, I personally never had that problem with it. It was very accurate. I just let it go as it always felt like I was pointing a 2x4 and had a good bit more felt recoil than my other doubles. Which I could never figure out why as the stock dimensions where very close to other doubles I've had made to fit. Mac | |||
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Like I say, if "strumming" is the immediate cause, then there is some design issue or flaw that is the underlying cause. Otherwise, if it was just operator error, there would be more widespread reports of doubling with other brands. Stated another way, if shooter "strumming" is resulting in Merkels doubling on a more frequent basis, then shooter "strumming" should be resulting in more reports of doubling with other brands too. Mike | |||
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You need to fix my quote. I'm just counting incidents either recorded on here, or that I've seen at the range. Personally, I've never had one double on me. Below is the original post from somebody else:
USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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When Merkel and doubling are the topic, can Jorge be far behind! :-) | |||
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Just doing my civic duty.... USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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:-) | |||
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