Some of the discussion around carrying .470's versus .450/.400's and the relative weights of each made me recall an observation I will offer. I would much rather carry a several pound heavier double rifle than a scoped bolt action rifle. I should add that I am referring to the traditional "African carry", holding the barrel with the stock on your shoulder. Carrying a double in this fashion is virtually painless since the forearm of the double rides on your shoulder and the rifle can be balanced nicely. On the other hand, carrying a bolt action rifle, particularly with a scope, in the same way is much more ackward and uncomfortable. I noticed on the last hunt that I was much more excited to have Buzz say, "take the double" than the scoped rifle simply because it felt so much better and was so much easier to carry the double.

[Please, spare me all the posts about about how the African carry mode is irresponsible, inhumane, unethical, unsafe, immoral, cruel, indecent, unaesthetic, a sign of homosexuality, illegal in most states west of the Mississippi . . . .]

Mike,

I'm with you on the subject.

In a related question, what are "typical" weights for a loaded:


416 Remington/Rigby/Weatherby
or
458 Win bolt gun
or
458 Lott

I ask because we know the weight of the "typical" modern doubles by Heym, Merkel, Kreighoff, Verney-Carron for the 450-400, 450NE, 500NE and I'm not sure the doubles are even a "few" pounds more. Probably much closer than that. Add a scope to the bolt gun and they're probably equal if not heavier for the bolt gun.

Forgive me, but are there people out there who believe that "African carry" is irresponsible?

How could ultimate muzzle control be irresponsible?

Not only is it easier to carry, its easier to control where your barrels are pointed.

Suffice it to say, your mileage may vary, past success is not indicative of future performance and opinions vary:

http://forums.accuratereloadin...501054671#3501054671

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Suffice it to say, your mileage may vary, past success is not indicative of future performance and opinions vary:

http://forums.accuratereloadin...501054671#3501054671

I take it that there has been some heated discussions about this, but I have seen muzzles out of control with the sling carry to hunters in front of and behind the said carrier. (think about ducking under branches)


I know that when my hand is on the front of the muzzle that I can control where it is pointed... when its on my shoulder in a sling its not in my vision and I dont feel AS comfortable.

I feel much better walking into and under brush in control of the rifle.

I guess it all comes down to the person in charge of the rifle and if there is ever an accident its because of negligence... I don't think there is ever such a thing as gun accident.

I agree - I would much rather carry a double than a bolt gun, no matter how it is carried.

quote:

Add a scope to the bolt gun and they're probably equal if not heavier for the bolt gun.

Doc, Plus then you can actually hit what you're looking at :-)

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:

quote:

Add a scope to the bolt gun and they're probably equal if not heavier for the bolt gun.

Doc, Plus then you can actually hit what you're looking at :-)

Not me

I close my eyes either way.

Since my friend Mike Jines has seen fit to quote my comment on this topic from a prior thread, let me reiterate my position.

Carry at sling arms is safer than the "african" carry.

There are options with a sling other than the military barrel up position on the right shoulder. I personally know a number of well respected PHs who carry at sling arms with muzzle down, as I have done since Viet Nam, which allows for complete muzzle control. This is much easier to do with a short barreled bolt rifle (such as the B&M) or a DR and makes moving through brush dramatically more efficient.

I challenge anyone to watch an assortment of episodes of TAA/Hornady's Africa/UAS wherein a DR is carried african style and not observe unsafe muzzle sweeps. Not always, but more often than makes me comfortable.

I am not suggesting sling carry is the only way to carry a rifle, I just believe it is safer, that's my opinion based upon education, training and experience. Your mileage may differ. And yes, my 500NE DR has a sling attached.

Mike,

You are certainly not the only one that feels that way and a number of others weighed in on that other thread as well. And by the way that is not the only thread discussing African carry, just the first one I got to. Beauty is we can all have our own view and do as we please, with safety always being paramount regardless of how you carry the rifle. My only point is just how comfortable it is to carry a double that way.

I also have seen the muzzle sweeps on TAA much more than I am comfortable with.

Mike Jines -

pagosawingnut - Exactly! Some of the experienced DR guys here on AR, such as Mike Jines, are very aware of their weapons, but I have spent far too many years carrying a firearm every day, not to have seen more than a few serious errors and even a couple ADs committed, even by those who should know better. I honestly believe that the majority of those who buy a DR have no real understanding of how to carry it safely and simply throw it up on their shoulder in the african carry because that's what they have seen done. These folks would be much better served by using a sling and carrying muzzle down, IMO.

Semper Fi,

quote:

here are options with a sling other than the military barrel up position on the right shoulder. I personally know a number of well respected PHs who carry at sling arms with muzzle down, as I have done since Viet Nam, which allows for complete muzzle control. This is much easier to do with a short barreled bolt rifle (such as the B&M) or a DR and makes moving through brush dramatically more efficient.

AMEN BROTHER

+1

I started carrying rifles muzzle down in the early 80's. Just had that discussion with my PH.

I won

When I carry my double it is always with the African carry. But I will say this, it is always muzzle control and awareness.

Mike

I saw the latest edition of TAA yesterday and I was horrified by what I saw in one scene. A very well known PH was talking to two elephant hunting clients. He was standing within a couple of feet of one talking to him on camera. His big bore double was over his shoulder and pointed directly at the clients chest for the whole scene. The scene was quite long foe a TV program. I couldn't believe not only that the PH did that but that the scene didn't end up on the cutting room floor.

465H&H

No problem carrying a bolt action using the African carry,especially one with a short barrel and a flattened forearm like a Ruger.A scope will off-balance a double or bolt rifle,especially one with a large front lens requiring extended rings and bases.

The last trip to Zim I tried a hip holster from Erbelstock and I found it worked well and easy to fast shoulder amount. Any body else tried it?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but would not the 'African carry' have originated from the gun bearer walking in front of the hunter with the butt within reach of the hunter enabling a fast take up of his heavy double or bolt pointed in the direction of game when spotted. Taylor makes reference to this method which he found ideal when hunting in those times as I’m sure most of his ilk using gunbearers would have too.

I suppose now where the hunter generally walks behind the PH and the trackers, with the PH already carrying his own gun, the 'African carry' as practiced by the hunter or PH of today can be seen as an affliction rather than necessary way of carry. I have never seen this form of carry anywhere else in the World, only see it sometimes where shotgunners drap their opened gun over their shoulder while resting. If it is such a comfortable and quickly dismountable way to carry a gun surely it would be seen as a widespread practice around the rest of the World?

I too have observed in various videos the barrels of guns carried this way pointing in every other direction but safe.

quote:

Originally posted by Cross L:

quote:

here are options with a sling other than the military barrel up position on the right shoulder. I personally know a number of well respected PHs who carry at sling arms with muzzle down, as I have done since Viet Nam, which allows for complete muzzle control. This is much easier to do with a short barreled bolt rifle (such as the B&M) or a DR and makes moving through brush dramatically more efficient.

AMEN BROTHER

+1

I started carrying rifles muzzle down in the early 80's. Just had that discussion with my PH.

I won

Zim PH Paul Wellock always carries his rifle in that manor;


I often carry my rifle (Bolt and Double) in the reverse "African Carry" with Muzzle up and Butt pad in hand. Quite fast to get into action and safe. Sometimes can make a knocking sound when the barrel is bumped on low branches though.

l guess that is a good thing with the Krieghoff and Blaser is they can be carried loaded but uncocked. But being aware of where the muzzle is pointing is still very important.

Sometimes you see the train wreck coming, you even call out the fact that the train wreck will occur in an effort to stave off the train wreck, but alas the forces of nature are simply too great to be overcome.

I started the post commenting on how comfortable the African carry mode is with a double versus a bolt action rifle and invited comments. I feared we would end up right where we have . . . .

Just to get back on track, Mike.

Was in Zambia last month and forced to use a bolt gun (Mannlicher) after years of carrying only doubles from cal. .22 k-Hornet to cal. .500/.450 Nitroexpress. Every single one of those doubles was easier to carry either at the trail, one-handed; African carry on the shoulder; in both hands at port arms; or, when possible, cradled in my off arm, than that clumsy Mannlicher was.

I actually own a bolt rifle, a .375 H&H Dakota 76 custom built using a Rigby .350 magnum stock as template. That is much easier to carry than the Austrian rifle, but, the doubles are still easier.

It's not just adding a scope. I used a scope from time to time on a .350 Rigby No. 2 double and found the combination of balance, forearm dimensions and relative shortness of the double just plain easier to carry in the field. NOTE: I never carry a rifle slung when hunting, but will sometimes sling on the way back when light is gone.

Regards, Tim

Mike,

I agree with what you wrote in your first post. Sometimes I had to wrestle my PH for my double, he liked toting it better than his Lott in a bolt rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Sometimes you see the train wreck coming, you even call out the fact that the train wreck will occur in an effort to stave off the train wreck, but alas the forces of nature are simply too great to be overcome.

I started the post commenting on how comfortable the African carry mode is with a double versus a bolt action rifle and invited comments. I feared we would end up right where we have . . . .

Always going to be difficult trying to limit discussion on a forum such as this but then if we didn't have good discussion we would all be carrying the same gun, using the same ammo doing the same thing, end of story end of discussion.

BTW Mike my comments re safety of carry of any guns were not made with you in mind, from what I have seen in your videos you are a well oiled, safe and experienced user of the double and of course will defend it to the death

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Sometimes you see the train wreck coming, you even call out the fact that the train wreck will occur in an effort to stave off the train wreck, but alas the forces of nature are simply too great to be overcome.

I started the post commenting on how comfortable the African carry mode is with a double versus a bolt action rifle and invited comments. I feared we would end up right where we have . . . .

Mike, I doubt that you were the only one who saw the train...

If I were a PH with any but the absolutely most experienced and disciplined client who insisted on carrying a double in the "African" mode, I would be worrying about the possibility of two holes in my arse rather than just the one from the bolt gun. A second issue is that the triggers are behind you, where you can't see things catching on them.
But back to Mr. Jines' original point, a double certainly feels better over the shoulder than a bolt gun.

Be tough for a PH to call out the hunter for using the African carry since most PH's do the same thing and the tracker(s) are walking in front of the PH. If there is an issue with the hunter doing it, there is an issue with the PH doing it.

Damn, I am aiding and abetting the train wreck.

I have found it more comfortable to carry a double rather than a bolt rifle in the bush, esp. if the bolt rifle has a scope. I have never had a double with a scope so don't know how that would carry. If the bolt or double has a sling, that is more comfortable over the long haul than the African carry. I also use the upside down over the left shoulder when using a sling. In that position it is easy to control muzzle direction and very quick to get into action. Much quicker than muzzle up. For that reason alone I prefer it esp. where dangerous game roams.

465H&H

465H&H

I've carried my doubles both ways. Yes, it is easier in the African carry due to the way that the weight is distributed, and there is some muzzle control, but invariably you end up sweeping occasionally. I challenge any of you regular African carriers to claim that you have never sweeped, even by mistake. This year, my PH Martin Nel was very concerned about that (he does not carry African with his 450 Ackley Improved and it is not scoped) and I carried my double(scoped or with the RMR) or my bolt(scoped)-depending on what we were hunting-in my right or left hand, muzzle down. I typically carry in this manner most of the time anyway. So, yes, it is easier- balancing/weight wise, but not always the safest.

IMO,the sling carry is not more comfortable than the African carry.The African carry looks alot like the way native African women carry water and various items balanced on top of their heads.It is a carry that allows one to constantly shift the position and weight of the rifle so that the burden is relieved.Also,the bolt action rifle will probably weigh less than the double so it will be more pleasant to carry.

I just cannot carry a rifle with a sling on my shoulder. Between my sloping shoulders and all the stuff I have on my belt, it does just not work for me.

I have been using "African Carry" long before I knew what it was called.

Also many times I carry a scoped rifle using the scope as the "handle" like on a suit case.

The bottom line is, IMHO of course, is that it does not matter how or in what manner you carry your rifle as long as your muzzle does not cover anything you would not want to shoot.

Even with a shoulder slung rifle, muzzle up or down if you are not muzzle aware, you can "cover" not only yourself but others as well.

It all boils down to where is the muzzle pointing, at ALL times...

I actually find African carry to be safer for me to do vs. other methods, as the end of the barrels are always in my vision.

Again IMHO, Gun Safety is of a FIRST PRIORITY.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
I just cannot carry a rifle with a sling on my shoulder. Between my sloping shoulders and all the stuff I have on my belt, it does just not work for me.

I have been using "African Carry" long before I knew what it was called.

Also many times I carry a scoped rifle using the scope as the "handle" like on a suit case.

The bottom line is, IMHO of course, is that it does not matter how or in what manner you carry your rifle as long as your muzzle does not cover anything you would not want to shoot.

Even with a shoulder slung rifle, muzzle up or down if you are not muzzle aware, you can "cover" not only yourself but others as well.

It all boils down to where is the muzzle pointing, at ALL times...

I actually find African carry to be safer for me to do vs. other methods, as the end of the barrels are always in my vision.

Again IMHO, Gun Safety is of a FIRST PRIORITY.

Thats all I was trying to say also, didnt mean to stir the pot. I apologize.

quote:

Originally posted by DoubleJB:
Forgive me, but are there people out there who believe that "African carry" is irresponsible?

How could ultimate muzzle control be irresponsible?

Not only is it easier to carry, its easier to control where your barrels are pointed.

Exactly, you did not "stir the pot" you added to it.

As we have discussed, when the rifle is on your shoulder, in African carry, just by moving your hand on the barrel a few inches, you can keep the muzzle from pointing at anyone.

Properly done, African Carry, just might be the easiest way to carry a loaded rifle safely.

Makes you wonder, if we assume that roughly 80% of the PHs use the African carry (which I think is a bit conservative actually) and we assume that the average PH spends 120-175 days hunting each season and we recognize that the trackers are almost always walking in front of the PH, if the African carry is inherently dangerous, why do we not hear about the occasional tracker that took one in the bum or the near miss with the tracker? Are PHs much more "bore conscious" than their clients? Is African carry not as dangerous as some perceive?

[I guess if you can not avoid the train wreck, grab your own locomotive and join in the train wreck.]

I found that with the African carry, I always had my muzzles in my field of vision, with my hand steering so I could control where it points. If you train yourself never to point a rifle at another person, I found it easy and intuitive to anticipate where I was, where everybody else was, and to steer the muzzle away. Bob

Back to the original question.

Carrying a rifle in hunting situations in Africa where one is constantly dodging branches, bushes, thorny undergrowth, and other hazards, frequently ducking under low vegitation while following game trails, African carry is more convienient as well as more comfortable.

With a rifle carried by a sling over the shoulder it takes a bit more motion to un-sling and then navigate the obstruction. With African carry it takes a little less effort to take the rifle off the shoulder and hold it low to duck under things. A sling just gets in the way.

I not only don't use one while hunting, I don't even pack one for African trips.

Walking with a scoped rife, I find that carrying it in the weak hand balanced under the magazine, with the butt tucked up under my armpit is the most confortable way to do it. African carry with a scoped rifle just feels unbalanced and the scope is leaning against my neck. It just doesn't feeel right.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
IMO,the sling carry is not more comfortable than the African carry.The African carry looks alot like the way native African women carry water and various items balanced on top of their heads.It is a carry that allows one to constantly shift the position and weight of the rifle so that the burden is relieved.Also,the bolt action rifle will probably weigh less than the double so it will be more pleasant to carry.

Please post a picture of you carrying your rifle on top of your head.

Please do not dare him.

No, please do!

quote:

Originally posted by Use Enough Gun:
I challenge any of you regular African carriers to claim that you have never sweeped, even by mistake.

With all due respect, I challenge all the regular sling carriers to claim that they have never sweeped, even by mistake. I don't know how many times I've found myself looking down the end of the barrel on a sling carried rifle when walking behind the other guy. Going down an embankment, ducking under brush, etc., the guy behind gets swept and the sling carrier never knows it.

African carry for me, unless we are deadheading back to the truck over a long haul.