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| One of Us |
I've had two SXS DB shotguns in the past but never a DB rifle and always wondered about the differences between O/U and SXS double rifles. I keep trying to decide which one if I can decide to purchase a DB rifle.  Can you DB rifle shooters give me the pro's and con's and preference reasons for one over the other? Thanks | ||
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Our eyes are side by side, not over and under. That is a good place to start. Cal _______________________________ Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska www.CalPappas.com www.CalPappas.blogspot.com 1994 Zimbabwe 1997 Zimbabwe 1998 Zimbabwe 1999 Zimbabwe 1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation 2000 Australia 2002 South Africa 2003 South Africa 2003 Zimbabwe 2005 South Africa 2005 Zimbabwe 2006 Tanzania 2006 Zimbabwe--vacation 2007 Zimbabwe--vacation 2008 Zimbabwe 2012 Australia 2013 South Africa 2013 Zimbabwe 2013 Australia 2016 Zimbabwe 2017 Zimbabwe 2018 South Africa 2018 Zimbabwe--vacation 2019 South Africa 2019 Botswana 2019 Zimbabwe vacation 2021 South Africa 2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later) ______________________________ | |||
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I like shotguns O/U and rifles SxS, though I doubt there is much practical difference in the two configurations. That said I imagine there are die hard true believers on either side........or above and below......as appropriate.  | |||
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O/U rifles have to be opened wider to extract or eject the lower cartridge. Mike | |||
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There is, I am told, one advantage in a O/U double and that is that if you change the bullet weight you can alter the vertical point of impact. So that, I read, you can have a rifle that shoots with one weight to the sights at 100 yards but for longer range use a bullet of a different weight and it will shoot to those sights at 200 yards. Or something like that. | |||
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If we compare with eyes.... If a lady is leaning forward, and you watching her from behind....I would say O/U. Sorry guys couldn´t help it. | |||
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It depends on what you want mostly! There are a few things that could make the choice for you,and that is whether you want a big bore or a deer plains game double rifle. If you look at the chamber offerings in O/U, and S/S you will find that most dangerous game chamberings come in S/S rifles, and most O/U doubles come chambered for light to medium chamberings. A very large percentage of O/U double rifles are not chambered for anything larger than 9.3X74R, While S/S double can be had in just about anything from 22 Hornet to 600NE and even in some of the old Bore chamberings all the way up to 4 bore in custom made doubles. There are a few O/Us that chamber for things like 450-400NE or Heym chambers some O/U rifle in a few big bores cartridges! The choices is yours! My choice is S/S but that is a personal choice! ........................................................................  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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Just my opinion: For dangerous game, claws and teeth, or buffalo, SxS. {.375 cal and larger} For non-DG, O/U is very elegant, {.375 and smaller, and scoped}. D/R Hunter Correct bullet placement, combined with the required depth of bullet penetration, results in an anchored animal... | |||
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It is very simple; side by sides are for Double Rifles. Anything else is not really a double rifle, but a rifle which just happens to have two barrels configured in some random orientation or another which does not interest me in the least. See how simple it is? | |||
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| One of Us |
Thanks for the input...it gives me a few things to chew on. I just started researching this actively yesterday and already there are two bright, glaring issues...loading and availability. Lots of SXS's and very few O/U's and very definite opinions on DG vs "the rest". I've only handled one SXS double rifle and never shot one plus was barely adequate with double SXS shotguns because of the sight picture of a double always messed with my "instinctual/visual training" of a single barrel. Loading was an issue on my 12 ga because of the ejectors...it would stop opening just before fully opening and ejecting if I didn't watch out, at a point where you couldn't drop a shell into the chamber. Great for saving cases or having only fired one round and wanting to reload. No problem in the 20 ga as it was an extractor model. Having shot single barreled rifles/pistols for 60 odd years, I'm gyrating towards the O/U, but the question of which one loads quicker and easier is definitely high on the consideration list. I don't want to question that aspect or cause a ruckus without first actually handling/shooting both and getting a feel for the reloading "problem". There seems to be quite a few SXS Chapuis in 470 NE on several double rifle auction/sales links, a few Heym's, Searcy's, Merkel's all about the same general used price range or it seemed that way, 12K +/- 2K...one nice looking Blaser S2 470 NE/30-06 two barrel set for 12.5K which appealed to me both cals being excellent for their intended purposes and the odd Sabatti going for half or less the other prices. Couldn't find a O/U in anything but 9.3 but could have missed finding one as I was looking for 470 - 500 NE's. I have NO desire to blow away an elephant...buf would be OK as there are plenty...and NO desire to go to Africa to shoot deer, pay dearly for the meat and have to give it to the locals...I can prang a Bison, Elk, Moose etc here in America, in my own back yard and EAT the meat myself. But I would like to go to Africa and Australia just to see the country. Basically I just want a double rifle in my rack before I roll over and get scattered on the wind. Again, thanks for the input. One other question: Can/would anyone give me some ballpark figures of what "good" used prices are on the better double rifles. I'm a junk yard dog and fancy is lost on me. I want mechanical value...pretty just doesn't interest so field grade, utilitarian wood and good fit/finish are what I'm looking for...i.e., cheapazz sonofa.... | |||
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Hey, if you go with the O/U, you might as well go with the Beavertail Fore-End, and single trigger as well. Just to make the Heresy Hat Trick complete and all!  | |||
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Lots of cute little quips given here given here by folks who most likely have little or no experience with O&U rifles. When comparing guns of equal quality; O&U rifles and shotguns offer the same benefits as shortness of action, reliability and balance as do SxS rifles and shotguns. Plus they are alot easier to scope if you want versatility.    Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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I assure you that your sight picture will not be disturbed by two barrels as you won't see them at all; you should not be looking at the barrels. I admit I have zero experience with over and unders. Because they aren't classic double rifles. Yes, you can kill stuff with them but they still look funny to me. | |||
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To my eye, over under, simply don't look right. So SxS for me. But I wouldn't begrudge someone for hunting with a O/U if that is what they like. Only Angels and Aviators have wings | |||
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HEY, That is just funny! "The difference between adventure and disaster is preparation." "The problem with quoting info from the internet is that you can never be sure it is accurate" Abraham Lincoln | |||
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Yes, 458Win, I fully understand the quips and reasons for them...one of the "mybad" things men do. Thanks for the loading pic...NICE buck by the by I think some of the loading problem comments might have been a practice issue, along with whichever double you started with and what dogma you hear...EVERY weapon has certain idiosyncrasies' that need to be addressed to become proficient. Sorry, Cal...your reply just blew right by me...still missing something in it. Some humor just whizzes right by me and doesn't stop. I don't know DPCD, I must have good/bad peripheral vision...I seem to see everything out there in front of my nose...doesn't seem to bother my shooting tho'. Only Drillings seem odd to me in some configurations. SXS shotguns give me the redazz because I'm lucky to hit 85%, but O/U shotguns are no different than shooting a pump/auto/bolt gun to me and I CAN load a O/U shotgun slick as greased owl shite with two rounds, so maybe an O/U should be my choice for muscle/eye memory alone. I would have to practice more with loading a SXS to get fast/accurate. I will study and munch a while, then find a gun shop that has both types to fondle. Again, I appreciate the replies and Thanks. | |||
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Did someone forget their coffee this morning? :-) | |||
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i have both in small and large calibers its like trout fishing a purest will argue its only right if you use a fly but we all know a worm will also work , i guess the verling is the perfect rifle two over under and two side by side DRSS,SCI. ZOLI 9.3X74R (2) Zoli 450 400 NE Merkel 470 NE V-C 600 NE VICTOR SARASQUETA 375 | |||
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| One of Us |
Can you explain how the O/U design is "alot easier to scope if you want versatility"? Just for reference, here is one of my SxS doubles with a Trijicon 1.25x4 quick detach system.  Saw a poster here no too long ago stating that an O/U gives more versatility than the SxS configuration in terms of being able to shoot longer distances! Here is a little video, previously posted as well, showing 3 shots with that same SxS double rifle, Warthog about 115yards, Baboon at about 150 - 160?, and Impala at 263 yards. Just wondering, if I had shot the impala at 300 yards, would I have needed to switch to the O/U configuration? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xf4V1XXlY6A Just as a "cute little bonus", here is that same SxS scoped double threading the bullet between the tusks at a face on presentation shot at a warthog at 150 yards along with the "happy snap" photo showing the entry hole! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InInjk2NCaw  SxS less versatile than the O/U configuration?  | |||
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an ou will do anything a sxs will do  DRSS,SCI. ZOLI 9.3X74R (2) Zoli 450 400 NE Merkel 470 NE V-C 600 NE VICTOR SARASQUETA 375 | |||
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| one of us |
Todd, it looks like you know your rifle and are quite good with it. Have you given an O&U the same honest trial so your comparison is unbiased? Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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Todd: Is that your sxs rifle with the scope? That is one hell of a piece of wood!!! Cal _______________________________ Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska www.CalPappas.com www.CalPappas.blogspot.com 1994 Zimbabwe 1997 Zimbabwe 1998 Zimbabwe 1999 Zimbabwe 1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation 2000 Australia 2002 South Africa 2003 South Africa 2003 Zimbabwe 2005 South Africa 2005 Zimbabwe 2006 Tanzania 2006 Zimbabwe--vacation 2007 Zimbabwe--vacation 2008 Zimbabwe 2012 Australia 2013 South Africa 2013 Zimbabwe 2013 Australia 2016 Zimbabwe 2017 Zimbabwe 2018 South Africa 2018 Zimbabwe--vacation 2019 South Africa 2019 Botswana 2019 Zimbabwe vacation 2021 South Africa 2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later) ______________________________ | |||
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| One of Us |
Yes Cal, that's my Chapuis. The same one in the videos. I think one of the reasons so many consider that Chapuis UGEX to be such a great bargain is the wood. Every one of them I've seen has been on par with mine, and for a very reasonable price considering what you get. Phil, Yes, I've shot a few O/U rifles (not to the extent of SxSs) but my commentary wasn't that the SxS can outdo the O/U per se. I was rather countering what I often see written about the attributes of the O/U in being superior to SxS doubles; such as it's easier to scope an O/U or that an O/U double is better suited to long range shooting. My experience has been that the SxS can do whatever the O/U can in those regards. | |||
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| one of us |
The Chapuis do seem to be durable and accurate rifles. I had a client bring a scoped Chapuis 9.3x74 SxS on a moose hunt over 20 years ago and although the two barrels shot to widely different POIs at long range, he had sighted the scope in with one barrel and using it as a single shot he managed to take his 69 1/2" bull at a distance of over 300 yards. The difference between a SxS and an OxU however is that with a regulated OxU all you need to know is where each barrel shoots and trajectory However with a SxS you not only need to accurately judge trajectory but also how wide the dispersion is between each barrel, at each range. Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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| One of Us |
This thread is unfolding just about exactly as expected. I don't think anyone can rationally explain a huge difference in functionality or practicality between the two types of guns, but these things are mostly about emotion anyway. I see a similar thing almost everyday in the Trumpet playing community. Trumpet has become my main hobby because I HAVE to practice a couple hours every night or I suck. This is much different than shooting or hunting, where several weeks or months of off time are easily overcome with a few minutes in the field or at the range. Anyway, trumpet players are mostly ego-driven alpha males, especially LEAD trumpet players. I have seen arguments get nasty over whether are large bore trumpet is a better choice than a medium large bore trumpet. The difference in bore size being around .010". I have seen huge arguments over the size of one's mouthpiece, and I have seen nasty arguments over if the type of finish on a horn affects it's sound. Of course I have NEVER been involved in one of those arguments, even though I am a LEAD trumpet player........  Thinking about it, I guess there really isn't any commonality between trumpet players and firearms enthusiasts..................is there??  | |||
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One of Us |
To me the debate over O/U versus S/S is sort of like the debate over double triggers versus single triggers: much ado about nothing. Use what you are comfortable using. I happen to prefer the S/S choice just because of tradition, but I have to confess the O/U's actually feel and handle a whole a lot better to me. Mike | |||
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| One of Us |
Phil, that simply isn't correct sir. If with a SxS, the ammo is properly matched to the rifle's regulation, the center of the left barrel's groups and the center of the right barrel's groups should always be the same distance as the center of the left muzzle to the center of the right muzzle. Now, if the rifle isn't properly regulated, or the ammo isn't properly matched to the regulation, then you have a situation as you describe with you earlier client. With my rifle and the load I'm shooting in it, the center of the right barrel's groups and the center of the left barrel's groups are approximately 1" apart regardless of 50 yards, 100 yards, or 250 yards. I had a hell of a time getting mine sorted out properly, but now that it is, I'm confident with that rifle out to whatever range I need to use if for, within reason of course. In other words, I only account for trajectory (vertical) when shooting it at different ranges. I don't hold to the left or right for POI depending on range or which barrel is used. That's the point I was trying to make. An O/U doesn't have any inherent advantage over a SxS in long range shooting. | |||
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| One of Us |
Is an OU rifle easier to sort out? | |||
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| One of Us |
alpha males Dont' use this term or Saeed will get pissed. I learned my lesson. Cal _______________________________ Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska www.CalPappas.com www.CalPappas.blogspot.com 1994 Zimbabwe 1997 Zimbabwe 1998 Zimbabwe 1999 Zimbabwe 1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation 2000 Australia 2002 South Africa 2003 South Africa 2003 Zimbabwe 2005 South Africa 2005 Zimbabwe 2006 Tanzania 2006 Zimbabwe--vacation 2007 Zimbabwe--vacation 2008 Zimbabwe 2012 Australia 2013 South Africa 2013 Zimbabwe 2013 Australia 2016 Zimbabwe 2017 Zimbabwe 2018 South Africa 2018 Zimbabwe--vacation 2019 South Africa 2019 Botswana 2019 Zimbabwe vacation 2021 South Africa 2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later) ______________________________ | |||
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| One of Us |
So what would the Saeed approved term be for what I am describing? | |||
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| One of Us |
Depends ... on the rifle and to what degree you desire to tune it. Even amongst double rifles of the same make, model, and caliber, some are more difficult than others. No two are exactly alike. Not to mention that some guys would be happy getting the two barrels to strike "close to each other" at 50 yards and call it quits. I wanted mine to shoot parallel at whatever distance so I chose to really delve into getting it "just right". Do you have an O/U that you've set up to shoot 250+ yards that you can report on here? | |||
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| One of Us |
No, this ain't my fight. But fussing with a SxS to get it to shoot well isn't a sign of design superiority, it's a sign of shooter/handloader skill. Perhaps Phil can describe an O/U rifle that shot to 250-300 yds and describe how much work it was to get it to that point. My suspicion is there isn't really much difference between the two, and lets be honest. 300 yds is not long range or difficult with a scope with most any rifle. | |||
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| one of us |
Both SXS and O/U have to be regulated in both horizontal and vertical spread at the regulation distance. An O/U has a tiny advantage there, maybe, with getting the horizontal spread corrected to none. Getting either to shoot parallel to infinity is nigh on to impossible. Too much variability in ammo and ambient conditions to allow such infinitesimal precision. 1/2" apart at 50 yards, dead-on converged at 100 yards, and then crossed by 1" at 200 yards is much more realistic for a SXS double.  I would jump for joy for worse than that.Then I would wait for that perfect day when the weather was just right to uncross one particular pair of cartridges that randomly coincided with that time between those two trigger pulls to make them shoot parallel to infinity. While waiting for the rapture, I would zero my sights for the more accurate barrel, since a fast second shot is most important up close, and I can reload that most accurate barrel pretty fast for the long range work. Point and shoot that second barrel up close even faster.  | |||
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The only thing to really consider is that in dangerous game situations, an over-under has to open just that much further to allow for the removal or ejection of a fired case from the bottom barrel, hence that fraction more time allowing for a difference of 30 and 130 sutures?  | |||
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| One of Us |
i have a few of both types and have used them on all sorts of game, dangerous and not. also i have several shotguns in both types. whati have found over the years is that i the o/u is decidedly more accurate,, the sxs is much quicker on target. i've scoped both types and find no difference. my o/u/s are a bit lighter in weight than the sxs, mainly due to the barrel weights. in shotguns i much prefer the sxs, and i do think that experience is at least partially due to the quickness of the sxs in rifle format. this could go on forever,but what it all boils down to which you prefer | |||
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| one of us |
The Chapuis you mention in your post above was either not regulated at the makers shop, or the loads he was using were not shooting to the regulation built into the barrels! Having to zero the scope to only one barrel is not a fix, but a make do effort. The trajectory of both barrels, if the rifle is regulated and the load matches the regulation the barrels will have the same trajectory no matter the range. The side by side that is regulated properly and shooting a load that is proper for that regulation the centers of each barrel’s individual group will be parallel each barrel's group center on it's own side of the aiming point regardless of range. An O/U double rifle that is properly regulated and shooting a proper regulating load the trajectories will be one over the other and parallel no matter the range. That is what I tried to tell you back when you got your O/U double 450-400 when you told me that one barrel was dead on at close, and the other barrel was dead on at long range. That O/U of yours, If it is still shooting that way it is not regulated properly, or the loads you are shooting are not shooting properly to that regulation built into the rifle, PERIOD! The Over/Under is not easier to get regulation than a side/side double. Both must print a combined composite group with each barrels group center equal to the distance between the bore centers of each barrel with the lower barrel’s center below the center of the upper barrel to form a slightly egg shaped composite group of both barrels, The same goes for a side-side. A properly regulated double rifle the barrels shoot parallel to each other regardless of range, be it S/S or O/U! If a different sight hold for each barrel is needed for each barrel at any range the rifle is either not regulated physically, or the load is not shooting to the regulation built into the rifle. Todd is right, proper regulation has nothing to do with the rifle being O/U or S/S! and properly regulated in both physically in the barrels, and in the load being used, the barrels will shoot parallel no matter the range! If it doesn’t then the rifle is either not physically regulated by the maker, or the load is not proper for the rifle! Shooting wide or crossed means the regulation is NOT THERE in either the barrels or the load or both! ..................................................................  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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 Antlers Double Rifle Shooters Society Heym 450/400 3" | |||
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| One of Us |
I appreciate the replies. Thanks again even though they were becoming a bit LOUD. On the negative side, the arguments almost had the opposite effect on me of deciding all the mess surrounding getting a double to shoot straight was just not worth it. 2-4" at 50 yds is a shotgun pattern NOT a rifle group, to me. My ideal of a double rifle is a quick pointing, express sighted 40 cal, but preferably 45 and larger cal, 500 gr plus bullet weight, two quick shots, 50 yds in, to immobilize/kill with the first shot and the second shot for certainty...NOTHING about reloading. (35,9.3 and 375 cals aside, no disrespect for the killing power of those, I have rifles in those cals also, just not for MY ideal of a "stopping" rifle) That's why you have a PH backup AND, preferably, a gun bearer close at hand with another rifle, or the shooter having developed a set of reloading skills through practice, practice, practice...to negate or reduce the reload time differences between a SXS and O/U, if things get a bit sticky. In todays world of canned hunts, hurry, hurry, hurry, that, sadly, isn't the case. A double rifle is a work of art...an expression of gun makers taking ugly, dead pieces of wood and metal and turning them into a beautiful example of sculpture at it's finest...at least in the older traditions...today that statement might be a bit over the top, but doubles are still extremely lovely pieces of art...BUT To put a scope/Trijicon/reddot on either design is an abomination in my eyes...all those lovely curves are just turned into an ugly POS looking cricket bat...MY THOUGHTS...fit, form and functionality are usually at the top of the list and a scope fits into the functionality end, BUT NOT on a double, please. I think also that any difference in reloading times falls into the practice, practice, practice milieu...and into personal bias. No one showed me any head to head comparisons between the two different rifle configurations with at least three other shooters. Personal bias clouds many a thought process. Besides which, I certainly wouldn't go into a situation, by choice, with a two shooter if I though for ANY reason I would need more than two...a bolt gun can get of the first shot PLUS 3 more shots, the amount in many large bore bolt guns magazines, MUCH quicker than reloading even a SXS. The arguments about the reloading speed seemed to fall into the difference in opening amount/times and that seems also bogus. There are a ton of other happenings going on, if things are going titsup, that affect reloading time/speed besides the few degrees of opening gap that could/would affect reloading speed differences, if any actually exist. As been pointed out, PREFERENCE, is the key issue. Again, THANKS for the replies and other, incidentally added information. ALL information, pro, con, negative and positive, has it's value...always. | |||
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| One of Us |
Good points. I agree that a DR's forte is in reliably delivering two large-caliber bullets to stop big game in short range and dangerous situations. That is the responsibility of the PH. If you do choose to hunt with a DR, think of it as you would bowhunting...purposely putting yourself at a disadvantage (close range) to make the hunt more sporting. But to say that the DR is a better choice of weapon for someone on an African hunt is bordering on absurdity. Don't get me wrong...I LOVE double rifles, hunted with just as they were made; with open sights and up close. | |||
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