todd i meant no disrespect i have both and am a fan of any double rifle , phil and i both have 450 400 zoli's and like them very pleasant to shoot but to me a double is a double from rhe 22 to the 700

quote:

Besides which, I certainly wouldn't go into a situation, by choice, with a two shooter if I though for ANY reason I would need more than two...a bolt gun can get of the first shot PLUS 3 more shots, the amount in many large bore bolt guns magazines, MUCH quicker than reloading even a SXS.

Actually, Todd has done a speed test between a SxS and a bolt gun as to which could fire four shots the fastest. Without ejectors, the double was as fast. With ejectors, the double was faster. The double was more accurate as well in that scenario. It as a 500 NE vs a 416 Rigby.

quote:

The double was more accurate as well in that scenario.

Was this the guy with the bolt rifle?

Todd (or anyone else for that matter) would never win that race with a bolt shooter using a Blaser. Seriously.

quote:

would never win that race with a bolt shooter using a Blaser. Seriously.

Heed these words of wisdom! Spoken wisely!

Well, if you want to go down that path a BAR in 458 Win would be faster still, though we all know the only REAL DG bolt guns are CRF turn bolts. The point is a double is as fast as bolt with four shots. You can look at Todd's video and argue wth HIM about that all you want. In fact I am sure you already have.

In Todd's video they were both shooting offhand at around 25 yds, IIRC. My limited experience with DRs has shown me nothing is faster for two reasonably accurate offhand shots at close range than a DR, and close range is where one would need the rapid shots. If I had to make four rapid shots at 200 yds a bolt would win every time.

But again I say none of this is my fight. That is for others here.....

quote:

Originally posted by NONAGONAGIN:
I appreciate the replies. Thanks again even though they were becoming a bit LOUD. On the negative side, the arguments almost had the opposite effect on me of deciding all the mess surrounding getting a double to shoot straight was just not worth it. 2-4" at 50 yds is a shotgun pattern NOT a rifle group, to me.

>>>>Snip

NONA, The 2 to 4 inch group is a composite group of both barrels for four shots from each barrel. With a 2 inch composite group that is a 1 inch group from each barrel, and at least 1/3rd of the bullet holes from each side will be superimposed over 1/3rd of the other barrels group.

While shooting off hand at a moving cape buffalo, or trying to make a brain shot at an elephant closing on you at 25 yds I sincerely doubt most could print four shots in a 4 inch group with any type of rifle! [


SNIP<<<<<

quote:

Originally posted by NONAGONAGIN:
Besides which, I certainly wouldn't go into a situation, by choice, with a two shooter if I though for ANY reason I would need more than two...a bolt gun can get of the first shot PLUS 3 more shots, the amount in many large bore bolt guns magazines, MUCH quicker than reloading even a SXS.

NONA, the bold above is the common belief and in theory it may sound to be a fact. However it is simply not true, and has been proved false on many occasions, in timed and accuracy scored competition. The guy that is good with a double rifle, is at no disadvantage shooting against an equally good guy with a bolt rifle for four shots. .................................

quote:

Originally posted by afp:

quote:

Besides which, I certainly wouldn't go into a situation, by choice, with a two shooter if I though for ANY reason I would need more than two... a bolt gun can get of the first shot PLUS 3 more shots, the amount in many large bore bolt guns magazines, MUCH quicker than reloading even a SXS.

Actually, Todd has done a speed test between a SxS and a bolt gun as to which could fire four shots the fastest. Without ejectors, the double was as fast. With ejectors, the double was faster. The double was more accurate as well in that scenario. It as a 500 NE vs a 416 Rigby.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SIaSDCCEN8

I get a chuckle every time I hear that little quip! Posted above is that video afp is speaking of. I know my friend Eric seems to get the brunt of the commentary but if you just watch him, he is actually shooting pretty well here, firing 4 aimed shots in just over 8 seconds. Eric has quite a bit of big bore experience with a couple of DG safaris under his belt which is exactly why I picked him for the video. I didn't want to compete against Bieb's brother from the photo he posted above! Actually, even though I beat him in time, I think that's NOT the most pertinent information to be taken from the video. What IS important IMO is how competitive the double gun is, regardless of who actually finishes first as most guys tend to think the double shooter will be fiddling for rounds in a shirt pocket, watching a rapidly departing DG animal, all the while the bolt shooter is cranking and shooting. Maybe for a double shooter who isn't prepared and practiced, but then the same can be said for the unfamiliar bolt shooter!! Two equally proficient shooters of both rifle types are going to have very similar time and accuracy results.

I will whole hearted agree with Jines though. I doubt SERIOUSLY, that I or any double shooter could beat a Blaser in a speed contest with a double (certainly not with a standard bolt gun as we now KNOW the double is FASTER ). But then again, I know nothing of abhorrent things such as Blasers or the "get lucky" rate in Gay bars. For first hand experience with both of those, you'll need to speak with Beibs!!

Todd,

Your video illustrates a lot. It would be great also if you put up the where you had deselected the ejectors.

I think a lot of this, no, I am SURE a lot of it is shooter proficiency. In "African Dangerous Game Cartridges" by Pierre van der Walt' the author shows a chart where the bolt guts beat the DR guys, though he does point out the DRs were in heavier calibers and one of the bolts was a Blaser. Todd's time on his video beats the posted time for the Blaser (10.73 sec for a 416 Rem vs Todds 7 seconds on his video. The bolt shooter on Todd's video comes in at about 9 sec.)

However, Pierre van der Walt' seems biased toward bolt rifles. He talks about how high maintenance and fussy doubles are.

No extreme examples please...extremism hurts the veracity of the actual experts.

Someone fumbling around playing pocket pool looking for rounds is NOT what I had in mind when it comes to double shooters. More like Robert Redford in "Out of Africa" with Meryl Streep(probably staged) or the way I load a O/U shotgun with two in my right hand between thumb and two fingers from a looped belt.

One video, one shooter, one target DOESN'T mean anything other than ONE person is highly adept at eye/hand coordination/double loading, but thanks for the link, I will get it downloaded when In get to a WI-FI point.

I'm not knocking/dissing anyone or their loading abilities, just critically examining the situation from my own limited experience and what I expect to achieve from shooting a double if I get one.

I know how fast I can crank off 7 aimed rounds of 458 American from my SMLE conversion or 4 rounds from my 50 Rigby, all loaded to about the same recoil level as a 470 or 500 NE, and how fast I can reload an O/U 12 ga loaded with heavy goose loads or slugs.

Besides if a DG is heading AWAY from a shooter, WHY prang it at all...unless you want to wound it and go all macho crawling around in the grass...I've done that and didn't think it was all that macho...just plain stupid for getting into that situation in the first place and having to clean it up.

This is getting into that "this vs that" extremist personal bias stuff and not really of much use for my initial needs. Very few are telling me anything of much use.

Putting myself at a "disadvantage for sporting reasons" is definitely NOT my idea of fun OR sport...and if you want to even things up between you and the animal, you would toss the gun and use a club, knife or spear.

Going out and pranging an animal just because it will defend itself by attacking and is basically defending itself or it's "tribe", from ANY distance, with a large cal shooter isn't my idea of macho or sport...defending MYSELF from a DG animal's attack is NOT sport either, it's killing for self protection and that doesn't bother me in the least...that includes two legged DG's.

I live in the woods 40 miles from town with black bear, cougar, dear, elk, range cattle, wild dogs and wilder humans all roaming around...I'm usually alone stomping through the boonies or at home and you never know if or which will get spooked and cause a ruckus. I always have a large cal rifle/shotgun handy and carry a large cal pistol/wheel gun. Animals don't cause me much concern, not even the DG kind...only the two legged kind...plus I get semi-regular visits from bears and cats during bad winters, and people are always dumping dogs so dog packs become problems now and then.

I'm looking for a faster pointing, simpler, ~100% weapon other than a pump/auto shotgun, bolt/lever rifle so my choices are double rifle or double shotgun and double shotguns are getting scarcer locally all the time.

What "extreme" examples?

Has this thread sunk so low as to get picky with the vernacular?

Maybe "extreme" was the wrong word..How about "excessively obscure, innuendo, off the wall, out of context, personally biased, not germane" or take your pick. Todd's example of what HE thinks other people think of double rifle shooters fumbling around reloading is a good example. Biebs pictorial examples are others...I'm wondering now which one is the selfie.

I've stated my idea of what a double rifle is and what I intend for it's use.

Offered up my thoughts in rebuttal and also agitated a bit to elicit more comments from the "double rifle extremophiles".

This comparison will always be an "unprovable, except in the mind" activity no different than Chevy VS Ford, Hi-velo, small cal, light bullet vs lo-velo, large cal, heavy bullet or which tastes better...chocolate ice cream or vanilla.

Personally I try NOT to limit myself by getting hard headed and stuck in a rut.

Rifles are just tools to me. An object, albeit sometime artfully beautiful, to get a job done. Many tools can do the same job and WHICH hammer is the "best" is in the eye of the beholder and we ALL have different eyes and each thinks he/she sees the "best".

I asked for a comparison between SXS and O/U...pro/cons, pos/neg and other thoughts...that's what I got...EOS..END OF STORY, let's move on.

Let me get this straight. You ask a knowingly controversial question on a forum well known for unmoderated flame wars, then get put off with the ensuing conversation even though it has remained civil with just a little teasing thrown in?

I thought I was a bad fit for Internet forums because as a strong INTJ personality type I just don't get most social interaction. To me, teasing seems like disrespect and personal attacks, and small talk seems like a complete waste of time. However, you appear to be as bad as I am. That is not a good place to be.......

Todd: Double Rifle VC 500 NE
Eric: Bolt Action CZ 550 Magnum .416 Rigby

Even though Todd got to say "Go!" and shot first,
and even though Eric took the rifle down from shoulder after each shot to work the bolt,
and Eric seemed to be in no real hurry, ...

THEY BOTH FIRED THE THIRD SHOT NEAR SIMULTANEOUSLY.

A double rifle shooter can definitely get off two faster than a bolt action, no surprise.
But a bolt action shooter, even Eric, can get off three shots faster than a double rifle shooter.

In fact, Eric's first three shots occurred over a shorter interval of time, than Todd's first three shots,
if you time from the rifle reports only,
which knocks off Todd's headstart.

Probably Todd could shoot 4 shots with his CZ bolt action just as fast OR FASTER
than he does with his VC 500 NE, unless that race is fixed too.

A good double rifle shooter will outpace a good bolt rifle shooter for two, fall behind on the third, close the gap some on the fourth, fall behind on the fifth and then be well ahead of the bolt rifle shooter when after five when the bolt rifle needs reloading, whether done singly or by the magazine.

Todd's bud is not a particularly good bolt rifle shooter. He most certainly isn't as proficient with a bolt rifle as Todd is with a double.

However, unless you are culling like Harland or Duckworth volume isn't critical.

Stopping a charge is important, and since an elephant at speed will close at 37'/sec only a double rifle gives the opportunity for two shots.

If the animal is going away, maybe the bolt's additional speed of the third would be useful, but it isn't critical like stopping an incomer is.

I'll repeat the admonition that despite the optimism displayed by some here, trusting your life to a PH in a charge is foolish. As a group we probably shoot more than the PH's and are likely better shots. Their ONLY advantage is knowing the target better. Even if yours is a fantastic shot he may not have the angle or opportunity to make a stopping shot either.

As far as SxS or O/U, I think the best choice is the one the hunter is most comfortable with.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by NONAGONAGIN:
I've had two SXS DB shotguns in the past but never a DB rifle and always wondered about the differences between O/U and SXS double rifles. I keep trying to decide which one if I can decide to purchase a DB rifle.

Can you DB rifle shooters give me the pro's and con's and preference reasons for one over the other?

Thanks

Typical! Ask a question about something you know nothing about, then disagree with everything people tell you!

If you knew the differences why did you ask?


................Puzzling!

In the first place I had NO "KNOWINLY CONTROVERSIAL" idea about asking this particular question...that's YOUR words/interpretation...and I know the childish verbal bullshit that goes on this forum. YOU need to stop reading into questions shit that isn't there...maybe take a reality check on yourself.

I was looking for information and others experience on something I had limited knowledge of...PERIOD.

I got similar information on Nitro Express and African Hunting forums with much more civility.

TALK ABOUT A RINGER...I got the same impression from the video as RIP, but it was still interesting and informative from several aspects and gave me some ideas to work on.

I made a loop belt similar to Todd's about 40 years ago for 12 and 20 ga shells, except they had 30 loops and shoulder straps to hold up the weight. Worked great when the dove/quail/ducks were thick as fleas. I copied it from a friend who copied it from another friend. You had to switch loading hands and rifle position when you got half way around.

I picked up a cheap Turkish made Maverick Field Hunter O/U 12 ga today...haven't had a O/U shotgun in 25 odd years. Not exactly the one I was looking at online but on sale and I saved $100 bucks. It will need some decent sights tho'. Should prove interesting with the my 850-1100 gr cast slugs.

quote:

Originally posted by NONAGONAGIN:
In the first place I had NO "KNOWINLY CONTROVERSIAL" idea about asking this particular question...that's YOUR words/interpretation...and I know the childish verbal bullshit that goes on this forum. YOU need to stop reading into questions shit that isn't there...maybe take a reality check on yourself.

quote:

Origenally posted by MacD37

It depends on what you want mostly! There are a few things that could make the choice for you,and that is whether you want a big bore or a deer plains game double rifle.

If you look at the chamber offerings in O/U, and S/S you will find that most dangerous game chamberings come in S/S rifles, and most O/U doubles come chambered for light to medium chamberings. A very large percentage of O/U double rifles are not chambered for anything larger than 9.3X74R, While S/S double can be had in just about anything from 22 Hornet to 600NE and even in some of the old Bore chamberings all the way up to 4 bore in custom made doubles.

There are a few O/Us that chamber for things like 450-400NE or Heym chambers some O/U rifle in a few big bores cartridges!

The choices is yours! My choice is S/S but that is a personal choice!

........................................................................

quote:

Origenally posted by MacD37

quote:

Originally posted by NONAGONAGIN:
I appreciate the replies. Thanks again even though they were becoming a bit LOUD. On the negative side, the arguments almost had the opposite effect on me of deciding all the mess surrounding getting a double to shoot straight was just not worth it. 2-4" at 50 yds is a shotgun pattern NOT a rifle group, to me.

>>>>Snip

NONA, The 2 to 4 inch group is a composite group of both barrels for four shots from each barrel. With a 2 inch composite group that is a 1 inch group from each barrel, and at least 1/3rd of the bullet holes from each side will be superimposed over 1/3rd of the other barrels group.

While shooting off hand at a moving cape buffalo, or trying to make a brain shot at an elephant closing on you at 25 yds I sincerely doubt most could print four shots in a 4 inch group with any type of rifle! [


SNIP<<<<<

quote:

Originally posted by NONAGONAGIN:
Besides which, I certainly wouldn't go into a situation, by choice, with a two shooter if I though for ANY reason I would need more than two...a bolt gun can get of the first shot PLUS 3 more shots, the amount in many large bore bolt guns magazines, MUCH quicker than reloading even a SXS.

NONA, the bold above is the common belief and in theory it may sound to be a fact. However it is simply not true, and has been proved false on many occasions, in timed and accuracy scored competition. The guy that is good with a double rifle, is at no disadvantage shooting against an equally good guy with a bolt rifle for four shots. .................................

NONAGONAGIN, I fail to see anything but two very civil responses (quoted above) to your questions and/or misconceptions! I fail to see where you find any childish bull shit in any of those two posts. I also fail to see the need, you find with my posts, for a reality check on myself. Again if you didn’t want comment, why did you ask for them?
When you ask questions about something, why wouldn’t you want answers!

........................................................................BYE!

quote:

Originally posted by NONAGONAGIN:

Besides if a DG is heading AWAY from a shooter, WHY prang it at all...

Really? Please tell us you realize buffalo rarely go down in their tracks with one shot and often end up running AWAY while the hunter continues to fire?

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

unless that race is fixed too.

Well, when the clip was originally posted and the bolt shooter excuses first started flying, one guy did accuse me of starting the demo at the report of my rifle, actually getting a little pissed off when I pointed out that even though I gave the "go" command, I hesitated a nano-second before raising my rile to begin shooting in an attempt to make it fair. But rigged? Perhaps if I showed the other 7 outtakes where the bolt rifle continued to jam, both mine and Eric's, it would add a bit of context? Fact is, both my rifle and Eric's were well "tuned" by very knowledgeable and well respected big bore gunsmiths. Under normal field conditions, neither he nor I can force them to jam, but put them under a little bit of stress and they jammed 6 out of 8 tries. What that tells me is the average fellow heading over on his DG hunt, even with a well tested bolt gun, cannot rule out weapon issues if the butter gets thin. The same can be said for a double rifle but with fewer movements required in it's operation, I'll stick with the double.

Of course Eric and I anticipated all the excuses and Monday morning quarterbacking after we ran the test once and saw how well the DR was going to do, even though we tried everything we could think of at the time to make for an equal playing field, hence the 8 attempts before getting both rifles through the exercise without malfunction. BTW, the one time Eric's rifle didn't jam that we didn't use for the video, my left barrel failed to completely eject necessitating me pulling it from the chamber with my fingers. AND BTW, BTW, we tied on that one. Anyone who is really interested, I can probably pull those tapes and load them as well but it will take awhile to find them now.

But more than anything else, for all the BS laid forth at countless campfires over the years about how the first shot between bolts and doubles will be equal, the second will go to the DR, the third will be same/slower/faster blah blah blah, I searched and searched for any evidence of anyone putting up or shutting up and taking a video camera to the range. Couldn't find it. I heard that Fin Agarrd (sp?) may have done and filmed the demo once, but still, lots of speculation and conjecture. When first posted, in light of all the criticism, I challenged others with an interest to take their guns and camera to the range and see what happens. Well ... ? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Still haven't seen another attempt to date. Actually, I'd like to do it again and with someone known here on AR so that they can speak for themselves as my buddy Eric doesn't even lurk here.

RIP, how about you? Want to take the guns and camera to the range? Come on down to TX and let's give er a take! I'll even let YOU say "GO"!!

Todd,

Next time I am in your neck of the woods, we'll give it a go. Would a 404 Jeffery be OK for that 4-shot run?
A CZ 550 Magnum is much easier to get to function perfectly with 5 shots of 404 Jeffery from the magazine
than with 3 or 4 of the .416 Rigby cartridges from the magazine.
Or my flawlessly functioning .395 H&H Pre-64 M70 for 5 shots (4+1) and we can let you win on the sixth shot by reloading "2 twice"
while I only have to "reload" a single for that sixth shot?

But wait, doing the "Mauser Extractor Pinch" with the CZ will allow 5 in the magazine plus 1 in the chamber with the 404 Jeffery.
No reload required for 6 shots.

Sure, I'll say "go" also to relieve you of the responsibility.

"2 Twice"

"Aagaard" has two double-A's and no other double-letters is how I remember to spell it.

IIRC, Saint Finn's family name might have originally sounded like "augered,"
as in "the reading of the tea leaves augered well for future success"
or "Todd has never augered his jet into the ground."
However, it has been Americanized by pronunciation,
even his kids say it with a long initial "A" like Ay'-gard ("ay" as in hay, "gard" as in garden).

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by NONAGONAGIN:

Besides if a DG is heading AWAY from a shooter, WHY prang it at all...

Really? Please tell us you realize buffalo rarely go down in their tracks with one shot and often end up running AWAY while the hunter continues to fire?

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

unless that race is fixed too.

Well, when the clip was originally posted and the bolt shooter excuses first started flying, one guy did accuse me of starting the demo at the report of my rifle, actually getting a little pissed off when I pointed out that even though I gave the "go" command, I hesitated a nano-second before raising my rile to begin shooting in an attempt to make it fair. But rigged? Perhaps if I showed the other 7 outtakes where the bolt rifle continued to jam, both mine and Eric's, it would add a bit of context? Fact is, both my rifle and Eric's were well "tuned" by very knowledgeable and well respected big bore gunsmiths. Under normal field conditions, neither he nor I can force them to jam, but put them under a little bit of stress and they jammed 6 out of 8 tries. What that tells me is the average fellow heading over on his DG hunt, even with a well tested bolt gun, cannot rule out weapon issues if the butter gets thin. The same can be said for a double rifle but with fewer movements required in it's operation, I'll stick with the double.

Of course Eric and I anticipated all the excuses and Monday morning quarterbacking after we ran the test once and saw how well the DR was going to do, even though we tried everything we could think of at the time to make for an equal playing field, hence the 8 attempts before getting both rifles through the exercise without malfunction. BTW, the one time Eric's rifle didn't jam that we didn't use for the video, my left barrel failed to completely eject necessitating me pulling it from the chamber with my fingers. AND BTW, BTW, we tied on that one. Anyone who is really interested, I can probably pull those tapes and load them as well but it will take awhile to find them now.

But more than anything else, for all the BS laid forth at countless campfires over the years about how the first shot between bolts and doubles will be equal, the second will go to the DR, the third will be same/slower/faster blah blah blah, I searched and searched for any evidence of anyone putting up or shutting up and taking a video camera to the range. Couldn't find it. I heard that Fin Agarrd (sp?) may have done and filmed the demo once, but still, lots of speculation and conjecture. When first posted, in light of all the criticism, I challenged others with an interest to take their guns and camera to the range and see what happens. Well ... ? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Still haven't seen another attempt to date. Actually, I'd like to do it again and with someone known here on AR so that they can speak for themselves as my buddy Eric doesn't even lurk here.

RIP, how about you? Want to take the guns and camera to the range? Come on down to TX and let's give er a take! I'll even let YOU say "GO"!!

If you really wanted to make it so that someone couldn't argue that you had the advantage, and we are talking a race of moments, you should have a third work the camera and call "go' and the shooters do their thing, or do two separate shoots, with someone calling each, and have compare times.

Well, NONAGONAGIN is someone who needs to be on ignore.

Todd,

Sorry to get you wrapped up in defending your video (again). I found it very useful and telling. One of these days I'll get a video of me shooting my 416 Rem M-70 Classic, and a video of me shooting my 450 NE. It will be interesting to see which of those I can shoot four shots with the quickest. I first need to develop some more skill with both rifles.

I would hate to see shootawhey compete against himself for time. That is why he is on ignore.

Todd is as good as it gets, able to give and take with the best, so he deserves some ribbing when he has a friend fumble for demonstration purposes.

RIP, bring whatever you want out to shoot. We'll have a good time. We can even give the 6 rounder a go if you want. The faster and harder to beat, the better. I'm game!

quote:

Originally posted by AK_Stick:
If you really wanted to make it so that someone couldn't argue that you had the advantage, and we are talking a race of moments, you should have a third work the camera and call "go' and the shooters do their thing, or do two separate shoots, with someone calling each, and have compare times.

Gentlemen, Todd is correct! A Cape buffalo rarely drops at the first shot or even two shots unless the central nervous system (CNS)is directly hit with one of the first two shots! If the buffalo is shot and is fleeing or charging it is the obligation of the shooter to end the departure, or charge with more shots. If the buff gets to the shooter, he is in some trouble, if he escapes the shooter pays for him anyway, but if the follow-up gets into thick jesse, it may turn into a very dangerous charge. Then the shooting you do better be quick, and accurate! Peter Capstick said it best in an interview, "When a Cape buffalo initiates a concentrated charge, you kill him or he will kill you!"

The only place where speed is a must is within 25 yards of the target. That is the distance where most true charges start!

The way we have done these things down at Bayou Rifles near Houston, TX at the HOOT&SHOOTS is, All the shooters are lined up on the firing line. Each shooter is individually timed with identical digital stop watches.

Regardless of rifle type, they start loaded the bolts with one in the chamber, and three down, and the double rifles both barrels loaded, necessitating a reload after the first two shots. The shooting starts the time when each shooter fires his first shot, and ends when he fires shot no four!

The target is an eight inch target @ 25 yds, and the highest score possible is 40 points if all four shots hit the 2 inch ten ring, and any shot that is outside the 8 inch black is not counted, though that shot would still be in the kill zone of a cape buffalo.

The shooting is individually timed, and accuracy is scored on the target.

Out of about twenty shooters, about half and half bolt and double shooters. Only one bolt shooter beat any of the double rifle shooters. I took third place with a score of 36 out of a possible 40 points, all in the black and fired my four shots in 4 seconds flat.

I forgot that the double I was shooting had an automatic safety, and I tried to fire shot no, 3 with safety ON! Had to relieve the safety and pull the trigger again for shot no 3.

5seventy gave me fits because I had not disengaged the auto feature of that safety even though I'd owned that rifle for about 8 years while recommending others modify the auto safeties on their DANGEROUS GAME doubles. My only excuse is procrastination, and the fact that the rifle was used mostly for wild boar, and deer hunting. He was right, I should have disengaged the auto feature on that safety.

If I had not forgotten the safety, or had been shooting one of my other doubles I believe I could have shaved another second off the time. Four seconds for four shoots all in the 8 inch bull @25 yds IS fast, but that extra second could have cost me my life if the target had been a real Cape buffalo, or even more so if it had been a lion!

I must say though I’m not aware of any O/U doubles involved in that shoot, so it proved nothing in the O/U vs S/S issue. And as someone commented earlier, the only bolt rifle that may well beat a good double rifle shooter is Blaser straight pull bolt rifle. No matter how ugly they are they are extremely fast to operate! That would be an interesting contest to time, and add in some of the O/Us as well. Just a thought for the next one!

There were several AR members and DRSS present at that shoot who were also shooting that day.

As I said earlier, the only place where speed @ accuracy is a must is during a charge, and that happens most often within 25 yds. However the SPEED, and ACCURCY are equally important at that point! The way that shoot was done is, IMO, the best way to measure the shooing one against the other!

............................................................Hold your fire till I dig my foxhole! .......

now everyone has talked about fast mechanical fast,but no one has mentioned the human machine with increased heart rate labored breathing nervous system overload fingers that don't work the way they have done in practice many times a few degrees of angel really don't matter maybe Sullivan theory of waiting for the last shot has some credence. capstick held two in his other hand shaved some time

quote:

Originally posted by bwananelson:
now everyone has talked about fast mechanical fast,but no one has mentioned the human machine with increased heart rate labored breathing nervous system overload fingers that don't work the way they have done in practice many times a few degrees of angel really don't matter maybe Sullivan theory of waiting for the last shot has some credence. capstick held two in his other hand shaved some time

BwanaN a very good point! However it would be impossible to do a meaningful timing of one type against the other in a real charge. However the need for speed and accuracy to win in a competition like I described does cause some stress, admittedly not as much as a life and death charge but all contestants are under the same pressure in the range contest, so is a fair comparison. The range competition still shows that multiple shooters of both types, and under the same pressure the doubles win.

Our little experiment simply shows that under the same conditions one is faster and as accurate than the other. The system we used is IMO better than some one calling "GO" The times and the target accuracy says volumes! It is very good practice as well!

...............................................................

quote:

Originally posted by bwananelson:
now everyone has talked about fast mechanical fast,but no one has mentioned the human machine with increased heart rate labored breathing nervous system overload fingers that don't work the way they have done in practice many times a few degrees of angel really don't matter maybe Sullivan theory of waiting for the last shot has some credence. capstick held two in his other hand shaved some time

EXACTLY the reason Eric jammed the rifle 6 of 8 times, even with two rifles that have been properly tuned by well respected big bore gunsmiths.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
To me the debate over O/U versus S/S is sort of like the debate over double triggers versus single triggers: much ado about nothing. Use what you are comfortable using. I happen to prefer the S/S choice just because of tradition, but I have to confess the O/U's actually feel and handle a whole a lot better to me.

That right there is the best advice I've seen in this whole thread.

I have read all the posts with some interest and since I shall quite probably never own another double rifle all the questions and responses are moot for me. I have owned several of each persuasion and even used one in Africa. I am not a shotgun person which I would base my descision on. I shoot an O/U better than a SxS and that's a fact.The only 2 barrel gun I still own is a Browning Grade VI 28ga Lightning which is excellant when I was hunting quail. The only thing of real unusual skill was said By Cal Pappas about eyes. I have but one question for him - does he shoot the right barrel with his right eye and the left with his left eye, does he switch about? I once saw a double rifle with sights on both barrels - and it was that way from the factory. I have put one to my shoulder and can't make it work with both eyes but then I'm really handicapped as I have to shoot iron sights with one eye shut and always have. I will say this is a question of great importance and deserves much more discussion.

Gentlemen, everyone seems bent on disqualifying the range contests as relevant for timing the difference between the speed and accuracy for four shots for double rifles and bolt rifles. That thought process seems a little more of an excuse for the opinion that bolt rifles failure to consistently beat a double rifle for four shots for speed and accuracy is somehow flawed.
Why the above opinion seems a little suspect to me is, we readily accept the outcome of the qualifying bodies who license new PHs in gun handling. They are not timed on actual dangerous game charges either, and are timed and judged the same way!

This has turned more to do with doubles vrs bolt rifle than the difference between O/U vrs S/S, but is germane to instinctive shooting and time in a tight spot. For me personally, I'd rather have a double, regardless of barrel orientation than a bolt rifle in a close charge.

Many years ago for one of the shooting qualifications it was thought, because a couple of the shooter had double rifles, that the bolt rifle had an advantage over the double shooters in timed shooting on moving targets so the double shooters were given a break in the timed four shot contest and were offered a little more time. The outcome was the double shooters needed no handicap when shooting against bolt rifles at all, because they consistently beat the times of the bolt rifles for both speed for four shots, and accuracy in the kill zone on the target. Today those qualifying bodies offer no handicap to the double rifle shooters.

With that in mind, we seem to accept the licensing rules that qualify our PHs, but do not accept the same contest for hunters. Amazing!

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