Which is best ? forged or cast or machined ? has anyone any idea of the cost of the '' Tooling'' that is required to produce a double rifle action,fore end metal parts [barrels and wood work not included or ''hand work '']just action etc .Just curious ,when you see doubles for $80,000 or plus thousands of dollars Each ,i often wonder what ''machinery could be bought with this amount ?

A 4 or 5 axis CNC milling machine would be needed, to turn out a bunch of them. A manual mill will do the job, it just consumes a bunch of hours.

The real cost is not the machine time for the action. The real cost comes putting all the collective pieces together.

New_guy as a thread on double rifle making of Heyms here somewhere? It's an eye opener if you aren't familiar with putting double rifles together.
It is not just a science of machinery and manufacturing costs, it is a true art form! It requires the skills of artisians who are well schooled in their craft! There in lies the true cost of making a double rifle!
Just my opine!

The $80,000 guns are the exception and usually all about hand-fitting, the engraving, wood and custom touches. Most new doubles sell for $15,000 plus or minus 5K.

The problem with a machine-made double gun for the same price as a mass-market bolt gun is that there would be no volume sales. In the broader marketplace, who whould want a 2-shot hunting rifle if they could get a 4-5 shot model for the same money? Remington is about to find out, I guess.

As Rusty says, no matter how well a CNC machine makes the individual parts, the final fitting is done, and must be done, by human hands. Hands that belong to a very skilled practioners, and that, sorry to say,a skill that is a dieing art.

No matter the name, all double rifle makers, today use CNC machines, to do the grunt work, and some of the price has to do with the name engraved on the rifle,because even the best names sometimes start with barreled actions made by others less well known. In some cases only do the finish work of fully fitted barreled actions. Even the doubles that are marketed as "OFF THE SHELF" rifles require a lot of skilled hand work.

Which is best?, forged, machined, or cast, is the question, and I'd say they all are good, if done properly. I'd rather have either the forged, or machined from a billet of solid steel. IMO, Casting is an art that many do not have down pat, but there are quality arms made all three ways!

Don't make the mistake of turning up your nose at OFF THE SHELF double rifles! Most are solid working rifles that shoot very well, and are very reliable, as well as costing less money!

forged, machined or cast ?

forging is an old technology - it requires dies to shape the parts. forging compresses the metal - this was particularly useful when iron was used - not steel

machined - esp cnc machined is the answer for moderate or small production runs the big expense , in adition to the machine , is the cost to write the program. once written, each part comes out exactly like all the others.

casting is todays answer for reasonably high volume. note - all rugers are cast. the tooling for the casting can be expensive like for forging dies but the finished cast product has a finish that requires little polishing to be ready to use.

When you get right down to it, all steel stock is either forged or cast. You need some basic way to get the steel into workable form. Then you get to how you machine it.

Forging is not an old technology. Forging is what creates the stock for CNC machining. The forging method is important.

Casting has been aroung forever. But casting involves pouring molten steel into a mold. And, depending on how one cares for the form, it makes a huge difference whether you are the first or 1000th cast. And it also makes a difference on how much manual labor is required to make it right for a rifle.

The hammered cold forged steel today is probably the most free of impurities, air gaps, etc. One thing casting does not give you is the ability to hammer the steel.

CNC machining is the only practical small scale money making way to go here. A forging is good especially Ruger built products. You will find their forgings on some of the most sensitive military equipment available. Simply, the best you can buy but cost is substantial to get started ask MRC about that.

I plan in my retirement days to build myself a double on one of my 5 axis mills and live tooling lathes (I have 20 feet of 3.5 sq 4140 next to the hack saw right now for that very day) but these will be one offs and not for profit.

You would need big brass ones to take that plunge from scratch and hope to make money doing it. Machinery and tooling to get set up to produce doubles I would estimate at a minimum of 250K (to do it right, a 5 axis mill, a CNC lathe, with live tooling would be better an EDM, scrapers plus all the manual stuff for secondary ops and a skilled staff to design, program, fixture, setup, check run and fit all the parts being made) if it went close to double that no surprise to me. Whatever the machinery is double it for tooling and you will still be light. Sure you can do it with 50K in manual stuff but you will never make a dime. The number of hours for each action and rifle would easily be in the 1000s if not 10,000s of hours to finish each rifle you could charge 80K for

After 35 years in the business I like to think I know what I preach too.

All the more reason to tip your hat to the likes of Butch and others that make affordable doubles (yes it's a relative term) but still a quality double for 12k is simply astounding given that these guys make money doing it.

all steel is not forged - most of it is rolled.

true forging of parts requires dies to shape the steel into the part required. the hammering forms the part from the billet you start with.

modern castins, as used extensively by RUGER
is state of the art in atmospheric controlled conditions.

the only cold forging.
i have seen in my visits to gunmakers is rotoforging in barrel making

my mistake tom, I should have said cast instead of forged. However when I refer to the Ruger foundry I think it should be somewhat apparent I mispoke. However my point and message is correct IMO

quote:

Originally posted by fritz454:
CNC machining is the only practical small scale money making way to go here. A forging is good especially Ruger built products. You will find their forgings on some of the most sensitive military equipment available. Simply, the best you can buy but cost is substantial to get started ask MRC about that.

I plan in my retirement days to build myself a double on one of my 5 axis mills and live tooling lathes (I have 20 feet of 3.5 sq 4140 next to the hack saw right now for that very day) but these will be one offs and not for profit.

You would need big brass ones to take that plunge from scratch and hope to make money doing it. Machinery and tooling to get set up to produce doubles I would estimate at a minimum of 250K (to do it right, a 5 axis mill, a CNC lathe, with live tooling would be better an EDM, scrapers plus all the manual stuff for secondary ops and a skilled staff to design, program, fixture, setup, check run and fit all the parts being made) if it went close to double that no surprise to me. Whatever the machinery is double it for tooling and you will still be light. Sure you can do it with 50K in manual stuff but you will never make a dime. The number of hours for each action and rifle would easily be in the 1000s if not 10,000s of hours to finish each rifle you could charge 80K for

After 35 years in the business I like to think I know what I preach too.

All the more reason to tip your hat to the likes of Butch and others that make affordable doubles (yes it's a relative term) but still a quality double for 12k is simply astounding given that these guys make money doing it.

Ladies, the above post is one of the things I've been trying to get across to those who think Double rifles are seriously over priced!I say any new double rifle you can buy in the $10K-15K range, that is soild, but not fancy, is a bargain.

Most double rifles are made in other countries where the wages of skilled people are not as high as they are in the USA. Addtionally, even very well read machinests who can do amazing work, still, on average, do not have the skill to build a fine double rifle.

If the only cost of just machine work was involved at the USA rates,considering the hourly cost of machine work, and 1000-10,000 hrs of work needed, the cost for a completed double rifle made in this country would be far higher than the ones made in other countries, assuming the same level of quality.

What I'm saying here is, don't think because some of the rifles made in other countries are cheaper, that it is because they are not well made. They simply have lower production costs.

Considering the cost of skilled labor in this country, to get to the quality of the OFF THE SHELF double rifles, it is a wounder, that double rifles are as cheap as they are, no matter where they're made.

Posted by Fritz:

quote:

still a quality double for 12k is simply astounding given that these guys make money doing it.

I concur. I've run the numbers 6-way to Sunday, and am still astounded that Butch can not only feed himself but appears to be doing well!

When you factor in the very skilled/rare labor (try hiring a plumber for 600-1000hrs), risks of a small/fickle market, materials, and the amortized tooling/design costs, it makes lottery tickets look like a wise business investment. The first 500 Gremlins to roll off the line probably cost AMC a million a copy all told, and that would be a smashing run by DR measures. Imagine if production stopped there.

I hope to spend my retirement the same way as Fritz, but it will also be a labor of love. My hat is off to the brave souls with the skills, gumption, vision, and acumen to make a living enabling our hobby!

Bob

I wish Ken Owen or Germany's Heym or www.ttproctor.com

or www.searcyent.com or www.westleyrichards.com

or SOMEBODY would do a thorough documentary video

of 15 - 25 hours length detailing the building process of

double rifles, [like Ken Burns did for PBS television on the

subject of the U.S. Civil War, Jazz Music and Baseball].

quote:

Originally posted by BigFiveJack:
I wish Ken Owen or Germany's Heym or www.ttproctor.com

or www.searcyent.com or www.westleyrichards.com

or SOMEBODY would do a thorough documentary video

of 15 - 25 hours length detailing the building process of

double rifles, [like Ken Burns did for PBS television on the

subject of the U.S. Civil War, Jazz Music and Baseball].

I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you! In the first place there isn't enough interest in a speciality firearm like A double rifle,by the general public, and there aren't that many folks in the media who aren't gun haters, to produce the film. In addtion, the makers of double rifles don't mind the people who buy this type of firearm to be well advised in the process, to justify the price tags, and lagg time involved, but most wouldn't want to do a tutorial, giveing away many personal trade secrets to their compition.

What I think would fly, however, is a general documentary of general process in the makeing, care, and feeding of a double rifle, and finally the use of said type of rifle, and a comparrison, to other types of firearms in the field. A film done to dispell some of the misconceptions surrounding double rifles, and done in the same way as one of the African hunting films. This would have to be done by someone who is well known to the Safari hunting population, and big bore fans.

What I think would be better. however is:

FIRST FILM:
Part #1 A short film made in a double rifle maker's shop, or several shops to avoid the pandering to one maker charge that would certainly insue. Showing the general process, of makeing a double rifle including range regulation!

Part #2 a film on the care and feeding, of the different types of actions, and illustrations of different types, and a little about what to look for when shopping for a used double,

Part #3 an explanation of the way to work up a load that will shoot to the regulation of a double from how the bullets hit the target. Also a diminstration of fireing on moveing targets, and quick reloading, while being timed, on a range with life size moveing targets.


SECOND FILM
Part #4 The proper way to build a double rifle for different purposes, non-dangerous game, and one for dangerous game. With discussion of scope sights, as well as irons, and stock shape, and things like ejectors, or extractors ETC.

Part #5 Then finally footage of the use of these rifles for their intended use, from little small bore doubles to those in the four bore field gun.

Sold as a set, of two films of about 100 minutes each!

Mac,
sounds perfect.........now get busy making it.....please

quote:

Originally posted by degoins:
Mac,
sounds perfect.........now get busy making it.....please

I'd love to, and I have the time,but not the means!

jsut to confirm, all commerical steel is cast, at one point or another... poured into a mold, then perhaps shaped, forged, rolled, or whatever, but it starts CAST from the curcible.

Starting with a cast or forging of the basic shape is honestly not that relevant in overall cost... either saves hours$$$ of machine time to get to basic shape.

edm is SLOW ... and, with today's energy cost, not quite as attractive as it had been.

making them on a manual machine, as a one off hobby, is do-able.. short of cnc, making them as a business is not cost effective.. you couldn't sell them for just the cost of making. Who would buy a 50k US double, before engraving and wood?

jeffe

As far as "Gun Guys" n show biz goes, there are a couple of Greek brothers, MILIUS might be their last name.

They are huge shooting enthusiasts.

I read an article about one having a FABRI shotgun I think.

SPIELBERG has a FABRI with tones of dinosaurs and "stuff" engraved on it.

Imagine if one of these put out a film on our passion...

Didn't Butch Searcy make the doubles used in one of the Juraissac Park movies?

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Manion:
Didn't Butch Searcy make the doubles used in one of the Juraissac Park movies?

Yes he did. It was a .600 NE, engraved by Ron Collins. I spoke with Ron when I was ordering our .577 and he told me about the gun built for the movie and he engraved it in a manner to "represent the guns built around the turn of the century."

I would LOVE to see more of this gun, but Mr. Spielberg has it in his vault.

Butch did, at one time (not sure if he still has it) a rubber replica of the gun that was used in the movie.

This isn’t aimed at Jim Manion but he had most of the basic things I wanted to reply to Sorry Jim.
I know how some people are hung up on using the proper terminology. I don’t let it bother me to much and wouldn’t have replied but for the post on casting quality depending on whether you are the first or 1000th cast. That may have been true in the early days or where low teck low quality parts are being produced. Almost all castings used in hig teck devices from the F22A to computers to guns are investment cast. This process some times called lost wax method produces finished parts to such close tolerances that in many cases no further finishing is needed. This processuse a Mold to produces a wax copy of the object but the part that touches the metal is a 1 time use object.
Hear is a link that has some good information on the subject. http://www.hitchiner.com/himco/Basics.html

Forging process has two major purposes which are to form the required shape and to refine grain size inside of steel ingot. High fatigue strength is given by this process After forging process, generally, preliminary heat treatment is carried out in order to prevent products from hair cracks and to refine the metallurgical structure of material. After rough machining, quality heat treatment is performed to obtain proper mechanical properties and fine structure.
“ Forging is what creates the stock for CNC machining.†This isn’t necessarily true CNC machining just refers to a computer controlled machine you can load any type of material. I watched at work as they made a model part out of wood on a fairly big CNC mill.
I think the start up cost and labor cost would make it difficult to build an affordable double in this country. I have had people tell me they were going to build some by converting shotguns but have never had one in my hand.
By the way all metal is eather cast or Wrought. eather used as cast or aney process applied to it makes it Wrought.
Bill

I think the only guy in the world making double rifles from an investment cast action is Ken Owen. He used to work at an investment casting foundry in QC so he is intimately familiar with the process. Some of his guns have fired many thousands of rounds (I think one of them is a 500 A Square) and it's still going strong. Ken's real claim to fame is his 4 bore. I think he is working on his 6th gun in that caliber right now.

quote:

jsut to confirm, all commerical steel is cast, at one point or another... poured into a mold, then perhaps shaped, forged, rolled, or whatever, but it starts CAST from the curcible.

This is true but at the same time not true. 40 years ago, steel ingots the size of a bale of hay or bigger were cast in steel molds, held in a "soaking pit" at red heat, and then rolled on a blooming mill down to various dimensions eg billets or sheet.

Then continuous casting came along and the molten metal was poured into a continuous caster that delivered a slab or square section 8-12" thick that was then was rolled (hot) into billets or sheet.

This then evolved into thin slab casting where the metal was cast at higher speeds into a slab 1-2" thick, for plate or coil.

The not true part is that the FINAL SHAPE is not cast unless the part is made as a sand casting, die casting, or investment casting. That's what we usually call a casting. There is a related technology called MIM whereby the metal is injected into a mold in a "slushy" state to make small parts. And sintering whereby the metal object is made from little balls glued together in a mold and then sintered to melt them together.

(There is also a technology called spray casting but that's not widely used, and it's not really casting).

Metal that has been rolled into shape or forged into shape is not commonly referred to as a casting. The rolling or forging process significantly improves the engineering properties of the metal, and that's why these technologies are viewed as better for highly stressed parts. (For example, in your engine, your con rods are forged but your engine block is cast).

For many years, castings were deemed inferior to forgings or machined parts for applications involving high or repeated stresses, such as firearms receivers. Ruger put this one to bed. The debate rages on in the aerospace industry for airframe parts. Many aero engine parts are now investment cast as the shapes required are nearly impossible to forge or machine. Some (discs and shafts) are still forged.

Double rifle actions are forged and machined (or hand filed) for the most part. It's possible to investment cast them as Ruger (and Ken Owen) does. Ruger doesn't make double rifles although there are some prototypes around and many have used the Ruger O/U action (incl. Searcy) to make double rifles. I asked Dave Tilden at Ruger why not and he said Ruger views this as a miniscule market...true, but one double sells for as much as 20 bolt rifles and interest is growing...

I really didn't want to get into a course on steelmaking here. My purpose was to focus on finished steel for rifles - you either cast it or cut it from a forged block. Whether rolled on a continuous cast, hammer forged or clod hammer forged.

Also, I thought I was clear on the CNC being a machining process - hence the use of the word machining.

It is interesting to know that the lost wax method is used for investment case. That method has also been around for a while. Didn't Remington use that for his bronze work?

I know of a guy in CA who had a casting line in CA for industrial applications (gears and such). He still has the business, but he moved his entire production facility to China - because he could not get consistent parts meeting strict tolerance levels with his facility in the US. I certainly got the impression there is a little more to that process than pouring hot stuff in a mild and wait for it to cool.

I think the miltiple axis CNC crowd would debate on the tolerance levels between investment cast and CNC cut of a good forged block. The CNC process has come a long way in a relatively short period of time. Hell, even my dentist has one that makes crowns or caps from solid pieces of porcelin right in his office.

Too bad Ruger brushed off the market. They have the break action expertise and now seem to have the invemtment casting process down. There is a market for someone. I would not be surprised to see Tauras jump into this. When you think about hunting in the US, how many shots can you realistically get off at big game here, exclusing finishing shots? Can't wait for my 9.3 X 74 to get here....

â€I know of a guy in CA who had a casting line in CA for industrial applications (gears and such). He still has the business, but he moved his entire production facility to China - because he could not get consistent parts meeting strict tolerance levels with his facility in the US. I certainly got the impression there is a little more to that process than pouring hot stuff in a mild and wait for it to cool.â€

Having worked in a foundry I would say that is a under statement. He probley moved his company because of the peoples republic of California has such overly stringent rules on emissions and high taxes. If he couldn’t get high quality parts hear he wouldn’t do any better in China.

“I think the multiple axis CNC crowd would debate on the tolerance levels between investment cast and CNC cut of a good forged block. The CNC process has come a long way in a relatively short period of time. Hell, even my dentist has one that makes crowns or caps from solid pieces of porcelain right in his office.â€

You might be able to beat the tolerances but not the cost. When you are getting complex parts that can be used as cast or with verey little handwork you are saving money.

I think a combination of techniques would work to build a less expensive double. I also think it will take some one like Ruger or Tarus to do it because they have the basic equipment to start with this would reduce cost.

“ I thought I was clear on the CNC being a machining process - hence the use of the word machining.â€

CNC is not a machining process, it is a type of control on a machine. You have hand operated Machines that do the same thing as a CNC machine. All CNC Machines have hand controls.