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Talked to a gentleman in the Rigby booth on IWA Nuremberg exhibition who says they are in progress of making the real, genuine rising bite action for the first time since the manufacture seized in the early 20th century. He regarded that the Searcy action is a mere copy that looks the same externally, but internally it is not a rising bite, and doesn't have the properties that make it strong. I asked for the specifics, but he was unwilling to go into details, but stated that id Searcy made the action correctly it would be 10% smaller and lighter. I found a article that raises the question which is the correct way to make the action, but still I don't get the point. This is the article: http://www.americanrifleman.or....aspx?id=2264&cid=25 And this is the punchline which I don't completely grasp: “[The Searcy gun] is not a rising bite as we know it, nor is it correctly made. It is cheaply machined by allowing the milling cutter to remove the bridge of the action. This cuts down massively on the machining time. The cutter also exits from the front of the action in front of the breech pin, like Spanish sidelock guns, effectively splitting the action.” Can someone with more expertise please effectively explain this, possibly with pictures? Thank you and best regards Zeljko | ||
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Was this gentleman a Salesman or gunsmith? Whilst what he said might be true, it may not mean the Searcy type is not a form of "rising bite" with his own adjustments or not. I would bet Butch would be quite happy to tell you directly. | |||
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Found this in your attachment; Searcy’s rising bite is finished, and he’s taking orders. The price is either $45,000 for a Searcy version of the rising bite or $65,000 for an exact copy of a Rigby. | |||
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Sounds a bit like sour grapes. The age old argument of using CNC machines to remove the metal or a file will continue to go on. As to cuts down machine time, so what or good on him if he has worked out a faster way to machine an action, any action but especially the Rigby Bissell. People / buyers will decide and buy what they want. I feel that Searcy will succeed whereas Calif Rigby didn't really kick any goals. Just my HO. Previously 500N with many thousands of posts ! | |||
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From the link you posted: Searcy responded: “Mr. Neal wasn’t at the 2010 Safari Club exhibition in Reno, Nev., so he hasn’t seen or handled my rifle. As he is obviously confused about how I do my machining, I’d like to invite him to visit my factory and observe first-hand how we are making rising bite actions." again from the link; Unlike others involved in the Rigby soap opera, however, Searcy makes no pretense otherwise. “My rising bite is a copy,” he says matter-of-factly I think Neal should spend more time working and show us his rifle. Put up or shut up is the saying that applies here. | |||
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Thank you for the replies. but can an engineer or a gunsmith explain the text in the quote regarding the old vs new method and strength due to "splitting the action"? | |||
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I'll believe it when I see it. Talked to them in their booth in Dallas this year. They were being very secretive about who they were, how long they have been around, when they would actually have some doubles made to look at etc. The salesman was very quick to talk down any and all other makers we brought up. And no I don't own a Searcy. I'll leave the judgement of what these "New" Rigby owners can produce once I see a few examples at the shows. Mac | |||
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Gentelman on the IWA exibition gave me a card that says: Kent R. Porter, John Rigby & Co., 200 Crescent Court, Dallas, TX. He was very secretive about his workshop, and derogatory towards other Rigby firms and Searcy in particular. He said the Rigby archive and records are in his office, and they are the only lawful Rigby, because Paso Robles is defunct, and the other, London based one, he called "Squatters". They had a few bolt guns in the white, a few double guns, and a really beautiful Jones screw grip which he would let me touch only in the wooden stand. I wanted to see first hand how that action feels in the hands, but I will have to wait for a new opportunity, I guess. The gentleman also said he is the one who posted the AutoCad drawings on NitroExpress forum, and that he regularly participates on that forum. This is the thread: http://forums.nitroexpress.com...r=220983&an=0&page=0 | |||
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He also post here. http://forums.accuratereloadin...1019521/m/9681077181 | |||
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How could it be the real rising bite when Rigby passed away along time ago? | |||
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Zel I had a look at a few photos and wasn't sure exactly what he was talking about here. Maybe, just maybe Searcy might come along and I hope so but he's probably too busy making Rising Bites to put in people's hands - and sensible not to get into an internet slanging match !!! LOL I have an Old Rigby Bissell Double rifle, that will do me. Previously 500N with many thousands of posts ! | |||
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Some new info on the Rigby Co. First of all while at IWA show Mr Porter was told his services weren't needed anymore with Rigby. The new Managing Director is Mark Newton late of Paul Roberts gun co. in london. The co. will be a london based co. again. L&O Holding co. is the new owners of Rigby as of March 1. This is the same co. that owns Blaser and Mauser etc. The new US rep. is in San Antonio Tx. When I have more time I will get into the action differences. But keep in mind with the modern steels it is mute as to strength. | |||
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Sounds like sour grapes to me as well. I'd be confident putting my money with Butch and his rifles. And no, I don't own a Searcy rifle ... yet! | |||
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Well, if you'd stop dancing with those sweet talking French girls and look around home more....  NRA Life ASSRA Life DRSS Today's Quote: Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Give a man a welfare check, a free cell phone with free monthly minutes, food stamps, section 8 housing, a forty ounce malt liquor, a crack pipe and some Air Jordan's and he votes Democrat for a lifetime. | |||
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 Personally, I would like to see Mr. Neal tell Butch Searcy to his face that Butch produces an incorrectly made, cheaply machined rising bite double rifle - yep - I would be watching from a distance with a beer in my hand - it might prove to be VERY entertaining! | |||
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+1!  | |||
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That's definitely a step in the right direction. Mac | |||
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Pretty sure Mark Neal passed away a while back. Anyway, my son (13 years old) wants to be an engineer. Butch was kind enough at SCI/Vegas to show him his awesome rising bite action and explain it to him. Paul Smith SCI Life Member NRA Life Member DSC Member Life Member of the "I Can't Wait to Get Back to Africa" Club DRSS I had the privilege to fire E. Hemingway's WR .577NE, E. Keith's WR .470NE, & F. Jamieson's WJJ .500 Jeffery I strongly recommend avoidance of "The Zambezi Safari & Travel Co., Ltd." and "Pisces Sportfishing-Cabo San Lucas" "A failed policy of national defense is its own punishment" Otto von Bismarck | |||
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Whether in London or not, the "new Rigby" has no more connection to the Rigby name or history than does Butch Searcy. Buying a name doesn't do anything for me in terms of trust and confidence, in fact it makes me suspect. Do like Butch and go out and make a name on your own. Rigby my a**! | |||
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I have been waiting for Rigby (of London) to produce a double rifle for about 4 years now. There was Danish guy at one point, then Mr. Porter posted. I will wait and see, but at $65K I am not interested. I will stick with my K gun, my MK Owen and my Blaser S2. I can pick them up, shoot them, they go "bang" and they shoot accurately. Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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I heard from a very reliable source last week that the group that controls Blaser, Mauser, etc, now has obtained the rights to both Rigby USA and Rigby London. All Rigby operations will be moved back to London; but what does that really mean? Like Biebs said, the real Rigby is gone forever. Nothing wrong with folks like Butch or any other custom maker to build copies that emulate the glory of the Riby days and allure. With the exceptions of David McKay Brown, Holland & Holland for the most part, and perhaps a few other custom makers, the British gun trade is in name only, out-sourcing components and barrels not just to builders in Britain, but to companies all over to include Italy, Spain, Turkey, France, etc. The glory days of British guns are over. So if you want one of the glory guns, get it now while you can and take care of it. JP Sauer Drilling 12x12x9.3x72 David Murray Scottish Hammer 12 Bore Alex Henry 500/450 Double Rifle Steyr Classic Mannlicher Fullstock 6.5x55 Steyr Classic Mannlicher Fullstock .30-06 Walther PPQ H2 9mm Walther PPS M2 Cogswell & Harrison Hammer 12 Bore Damascus And Too Many More | |||
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Mike, my sentiments exactly...whether it comes from the UK or not, they are just copies, probably made on CNC, with parts sourced world-wide. The British guntrade as we remember it is a thing of the past for the most part. PS: Hey, you forgot Westley Richards, probably the only true British gunmaker left that can claim continued operation back to the Golden Age of the British gun trade. | |||
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Don't know anything about Butch's rising bite (or a Rigby rising bite either for that matter) other than I am pretty sure Butch patterned his after an original Rigby rising bite of days gone by. I don't own a Searcy either but have seen many on this board and have handled and shot a few. I think they are really great guns. Like most guys, I love the Rigby name but I think we have to accept the fact that Rigby is gone. It's a name only now and people are trying to take advantage of the Rigby name. If you think you need to spend upwards of $75,000 on a gun, take a look at an H&H. I could never afford to do that but I have found you can find high quality doubles for much, much less. Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
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I would comfortably say that if you want a truly "Best Gun" from Britain, go to Scotland and see David McKay Brown. He makes double rifles on the Dickson Roumd Action. They are expensive. I've never owned one, but I have sold two of his shotguns. They are true beauties. I think Holland & Holland's new Round Action guns might be comparable to McKay Brown's, but based upon a back-action instead of a true trigger plate action. JP Sauer Drilling 12x12x9.3x72 David Murray Scottish Hammer 12 Bore Alex Henry 500/450 Double Rifle Steyr Classic Mannlicher Fullstock 6.5x55 Steyr Classic Mannlicher Fullstock .30-06 Walther PPQ H2 9mm Walther PPS M2 Cogswell & Harrison Hammer 12 Bore Damascus And Too Many More | |||
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+1 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition” ― Rudyard Kipling | |||
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I'm not saying anybody is wrong or assuming this is the way in which Butch produces his action, I am only commenting on the description given by the person at Rigby. By "split action" he is referring to the hinge pin not being integral to the frame itself; much more challenging to produce. To avoid this people will machine the lump cavity out of the front of the action removing all metal effectively splitting the front of the action. A seperate hinge pin is then installed. I don't know if anybody has proved this detracts from the strength of the action otherwise. http://www.facebook.com/profil...p?id=100001646464847 A.M. Little Bespoke Gunmakers LLC 682-554-0044 Michael08TDK@yahoo.com | |||
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Your explanation is incorrect, Rigby has never made a RB action that way, they all have removable hinge pins. In fact in 37 years in this business I've never seen an action that had the hinge pin machined integral with the action. What he is refering to is that little piece of steel located on the watertable positioned between the two lumps and extends down to the recess cut for the locking bolt. I'll find a picture later and post the difference between the two styles. | |||
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I've never handled a Rigby so I don't know how they do it, that was just how I interpretted what he was saying. I did recently look at a WR double rifle that to my eyes looked like the hinge pin was integral, it also had machine marks around the hinge that looked like they came from a shaver of some kind. I could be wrong, that's just what my eyes saw. http://www.facebook.com/profil...p?id=100001646464847 A.M. Little Bespoke Gunmakers LLC 682-554-0044 Michael08TDK@yahoo.com | |||
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Says the guy with a crap load of English Girls locked up in his room!  Double Rifles, This is the weapon of a Jedi Knight. Not as clumsy or random as bolt rifle. An elegant weapon for a more civilized age. DRSS Chapuis 9.3x74R NRA Life Member | |||
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The arrow point to the piece of steel I'm refering to. By the way the arrow is pointing to an 1885 Rigby RB Underlever action, and the other one is my new long bar action. No problem Aaron  | |||
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This photo is great, it explains what it the fuss about. Thank you Mr.Searcy. I don't think this makes a difference in modern metallurgy strength wise, but I am no metallurgist or engineer. | |||
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Butch, I think this guy just has his pantyhose in a bunch over having a little competition now. I cant see where his gripe has any standing. Oh by the way, got enough coffee on that keyboard of yours?  Double Rifles, This is the weapon of a Jedi Knight. Not as clumsy or random as bolt rifle. An elegant weapon for a more civilized age. DRSS Chapuis 9.3x74R NRA Life Member | |||
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+1! I can tell you Butch has forgotten more about double rifles that that guy can read in books, and will be around long after that sour grape dispenser (Mr.Porter) is gone! ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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AMEN! | |||
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I don't know Zeljko, but before we throw him under the bus, let's give him the benefit of the doubt. It's very easy for someone who doesn't have extensive experience in the double rifle world to get caught up in the "sales speak" from whatever company. I thought he was just looking for info and not trying to promote Rigby. I may be fooled, but I'm willing to accept that at face value. Nevertheless, we all know the quality and ethics of Butch Searcy, and that is undisputable. With all the craze for "English Doubles", and I know that craze personally, it's easy to get sucked into stuff that just isn't what it seems. JP Sauer Drilling 12x12x9.3x72 David Murray Scottish Hammer 12 Bore Alex Henry 500/450 Double Rifle Steyr Classic Mannlicher Fullstock 6.5x55 Steyr Classic Mannlicher Fullstock .30-06 Walther PPQ H2 9mm Walther PPS M2 Cogswell & Harrison Hammer 12 Bore Damascus And Too Many More | |||
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Thanks for the explanation Butch. Much appreciated. I am no authority or even knowledgeable in this matter ..... however I have seen an Otto Bock clam shell action massive!) in 577 NE with an integral hinge pin. Bike rider here had it & it was off face & he was planning to work on it a few years ago. Srose has seen that rifle too.
"When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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Other guns out there with in built hinge pins. Hence other ways of tightening them. Previously 500N with many thousands of posts ! | |||
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Dear sir, allow me to correct several false statements you made. Nobody was throwing me under the bus, or making any derogatory comments, so I don't know what are you referring to. You seem to have reading comprehension problem, which is usually eliminated in second grade. I didn't say anything bad about Mr. Searcy, as I hold him and his work in very high regard. He is an example of how gunmakers should conduct their business, and I am very impressed by his company and him personally. I hope to visit his factory someday and talk to him personally. I didn't promote Rigby in any way, as I have no reason of to do so. On the contrary, reading between the lines, you could understand I did not like Mr. Porter very much, as he was very rude and insulting, snobbish, and unwilling to back up his claims by actual explanation of facts. Putting that aside, it is a very poor business practice to call competitors "a piece of shit", as it reflects on you as a poor mannered man. Courtesy is contagious. I think that in a niche market of high cost products such as double rifles, being bought by enthusiasts who are knowledgeable, explanation "Internally it isn't the same" or "It isn't made properly", just doesn't cut it. Well, after completing the first part of any post on this forum, which consists of correcting false claims other people say you made, or thought you may have meant, allow me to get to the point. This was a technical question about action and material mechanical properties. I didn't make a claim, I asked I question for more knowledgeable people to explain. Mt. Searcy explained in detail, with a photo for us, who don't know all gun terms in English, and completely lived up to his reputation as an expert, and a man who stands behind his products and claims. I tip my hat. This is the reason why I would always go to such a man to get my rifle instead of a company that says "we are the best" but wont even publish where their guns are made, let alone who makes them. (P.s. Some parts of today's Hollands are made in Ferlach) Once more: This was and objective and technical question. Not a question who is a better quality man, or who would you prefer to drink your beer with. Best regards and a little present for you Mr. MDSteward: http://havefunteaching.com/wor...ehension-worksheets/ | |||
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wtf | |||
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Dude, that guy was defending you! Throttle back and go take a Midol please!  Double Rifles, This is the weapon of a Jedi Knight. Not as clumsy or random as bolt rifle. An elegant weapon for a more civilized age. DRSS Chapuis 9.3x74R NRA Life Member | |||
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