Hey everyone, I'm still pretty new to the world of DR's, so I keep trying to learn as much as I can. I've come across some posts here about practice/light loads. Some seem to swear by them, and others dislike the idea altogether. I found some in Graeme Wright's book too, and it seems like they could be fun and less costly. Is this actually the case? Also, Mr. Wright has some Nitro for Black loads in his book.I would imagine that being a lower pressure load that they would be more than safe in a modern full nitro proofed rifle. Could these make good practice loads? Thank you for any help.

-Ryan

I have cast lead bullets as practice loads for my double(s). Problem is that the POI is different than the full house loads.
Peter.

Train as you fight; only shoot full house loads from DRs.

Another Sabatti member. Not to hijack the thread but I take it that you are happy and it shoots well? I have a 450-400-3 EJ that I haven't been able to properly put through the paces.

Cal Pappas has mentioned the 75 rule i.e., take a full charge and use a bullet 75% of the regulation weight. You can also use the regulating bullet with 75% of the regulating charge. This is supposed to keep it close to regulation but provide a less intense practice load.

I haven't tried it myself yet but I think most folks here would concede that Cal knows a bit about doubles.

Eric

Ryan,

I’m also new to the DR (not new to big bores) world, so can give you another newbies thoughts.When I started with my 577 I used Mr. Wright’s formula for Nitro for black loads and was pleasantly surprised at how close these shot to the sights. Recoil is reduced by about 1/3 and this allows me to extend my sessions by a fair number of rounds. I start with a few light loads to warm up, then move to full nitro loads and then after I have my fill I may finish with a few Nitro for Black. I will get a cast bullet mould this winter and plan on wearing out the gun asap. The other consideration is,if you want to hunt locally with your DR and you can get it to regulate properly ,these loads should work very nicely for pigs or deer etc. and you’ll have a lot of fun with it to boot. This is what I plan to do and should make for an interesting conversation if I meet another hunter!!
Just my 2 cents.

Good luck and keep us posted on your progress.

NN

Ryan

Research my poasts in the Double Rifle Forum.

Many will have info and discussion among Form Members.

I use a lot of lighter loads in my doubles. Mostly for hunting deer and pigs.

You just do not need an elephant gun, elephant loads and elephant bullets to kill deer and pigs.

It allows me to get in a lot more hunting with my doubles and makes them a lot of fun to hunt with. And very effective as well.

I have even killed a few coyotes and 2 squirrels for the pot with my 450 No2.

I shot them in the head with a 350gr Hornady RN.
On both occasions I was hunting pigs, and the shots on the squirrels just presented themselves. They both got fried up.

Ryan

If you would like me to, tomorrow I will do some research and recommend some starting loads, powder, bullets etc., for your 500, baised on what has worked in 450/400's, 450 3", my 450 No2, several 470's, 500/450, 500/475, and 475 No2 rifles I have helped work up lighter loads for.

NitroNut - thank you for the info. I wasn't sure about the NforB loads, just because of all of the factors that affect regulation/POI, but at the same time, it made sense that they would make good practice loads.

Eric - yes, I love my Sabatti. I had the stock shortened and a thicker recoil pad added, but it's awesome. Prior to my 500 NE, the largest caliber I owned was a 45-70, so it is an eye opener, but I wanted something with a lot of history and power. Cal's rule is written down and I plan on using it as well as those of Mr. Wright's. Thank you again.

dcpd - I totally understand what you mean. I did, however, flinch when I read your post, because I must have heard that practically every other day for the 10 years I was in the Navy.

Peter - I just got a lead furnace from my grandfather. He used to do a lot of reloading in his SASS and cowboy days. Now I just need a mould and I should be good to go.

N E 450 No2 - that would be awesome. Thank you. I would love more info. Like I said, I'm new to DR's, but also starting to dabble in reloading, so any help would be much appreciated.

Thank you everyone.

- Ryan

Tony who are you bullshitting those squirrels were gutted and skinned after 450# 2 took them out.

Mike

Ryan I will put together some info for you tomorrow.

Mike

Actually I shot these squirrels on different days, in the same area on my lease.

I actually and truely hit both of them in the head. The shots were around 18 to 20 yards.
No damage was done to the body of the squirrel, and in truth both squirrels were butchered and fried in olive oil, as I love fried squirrel, and rabbit. [Rattlesnake too ]

The load was 81 grains of IMR 3031 with either poly or foam filler, cannot remember which, I have used that load with both fillers over the years,does not make any difference in accuracy or regulation, with a Hornady 350gr RN bullet. Velocity is @2330fps.
I have killed several deer and a lot of pigs with this load.

This load is one that follows my 75% rule. It hits the same place as the full power loads with the 480 Woodleigh bullets.

And I mean hits the same place at ALL distances.

You see, the trajectory of a 350gr Hornady RN at @ 2330fps is the exact same as the trajectory as the 480, and 500 gr bullets at @2150fps.

Well, almost exactly the same, there is a 2 or 3 inche difference in point if impact at 300 yards...

My 450 No2 hits the same place at 100 yards with my loads using the 350 Hornady RN, the 480 Woodleigh Soft and Solid, the 500 gr Hornady Soft and Solid [the old Hornadys, not the brass jacketed solids, they did not hit the same, or the new DG bullets, have not tried them], and the North Fork 450gr FP Solids and the CUP Solids.

My Nitro for Black loads hit with the sights to 50 yards, but hit lower than the full power loads at 100 naturally, because they have less velocity, around 1750 to 1900 fps, depending on the bullet. I have Nitro for Black loads for the 300gr RP HP, the 405 gr RP and my 395gr cast FN Linotype bullet.

I'll verify Tony's 75% rule in every rifle I've tried it out in too.

Full powder load and a 75% weight of bullet!

For my 450's, 75% of a 480-500 grn bullet is 350grn. It works well!

OK, I'm motivated to try this in my 450NE (3 1/4). I have ALWAYS shot Hornady factory 480's but that is expensive and punishing. I am NOT a reloader but my neighbor has a complete room setup for his big bores and is quite experienced at it. He has volunteered to teach me. I have a set of dies, what powder/load would you all recommend with Hornady 350gr bullets? Thanks for any help.

JCS:
Use the same powder charge as with the 480 grainers. In fact, just pull a 480 and seat the 350. It is much more pleasant to shoot. In my .450 no2 I shoot 105 grains of IMR 4831 with a 500 grain Hornady and the 350s also. For the smaller .450 3 1/4, I think 95-97 grains would work fine.
Cal

Cal, do you have any recommendations for the 500NE 3"? Tony is working up some data for me, but your input would also be very much appreciated. Thank you.

- Ryan

You can use the 440 gn Woodleigh bullet which is a BP bullet in the 500 Nitro.

Works well on pigs !!!

.

For a truly reduced load, try Trail Boss.

Draw a line on the case where the bottom of your bullet seats. Then fill the case to that line with Trail Boss. Weigh that load. Multiply by 70% and that is your starting load. Max load is back to where the line was drawn.

This works with jacketed and cast bullets. DO NOT, under any circumstances, compress Trail Boss. Do not use filler and there is no need for magnum primers. These loads will give you about 1100fps velocity and recoil about like a 243. Really good for the last couple of shots each range session to refocus on trigger control without being pounded. Similar to the old trick of shooting a 22LR after a session with big bores.

Ryan:
I have loaded for a few mates the .500NE with the following: 105 grains of IMR 4831 and a 570-grain Woodleigh. Note the IMR charge is the same as with the .450 no2 as both used the same charge of cordite: 80 grains (if memory serves). You may have to adjust your charge up or down a bit but 105 is a good place to start (or 100 to be safe).
This has worked for several I know of including some who came to my house for me to develop a load and shoot at my place until regulation was achieved.
Cheers,
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by JCS271:
OK, I'm motivated to try this in my 450NE (3 1/4). I have ALWAYS shot Hornady factory 480's but that is expensive and punishing. I am NOT a reloader but my neighbor has a complete room setup for his big bores and is quite experienced at it. He has volunteered to teach me. I have a set of dies, what powder/load would you all recommend with Hornady 350gr bullets? Thanks for any help.

Here is what worked great with mine.
50gr Accurate 5744 350gr bullet Fed215 primer

Very accurate and easy to shoot.

Thanks Cal, 505G, and Todd. All great information.

Chris, any recommendations for Accurate 5744 in the 500?

On a side note, as far as fillers and wads are concerned, my grandfather used to use instant grits as a filler in his cowboy loads. Everyone used to tease him after he shot, asking if breakfast ready, but I guess it burns clean. Would this work in doubles too? If so, how do fillers work in general? If all they are for is to take up any air space, can/do they take the place of wads?

- Ryan

Use backer rod foam that you can get from any good hardware store or Dacron that you can steal from your wifes favorite stuffed critter!

( My wife has a teddy bear that's on a diet!)

Just slightly compress the powder with the bullet seated. I use a pencil eraser to pack it in .

I use wads I punch from felt carpet backing for the larger cases. It's cheap, easy to punch, and available at any auto or carpet shop. Punches are at any hardware store in 1/16th inch increments to 1 inch diameter. I use pillow stuffing for the smaller calibers. A few dollars worth will last several years. Backer rod (what Mike Brooks uses) is great stuff but not big enough in diameter for the 8 and 4 bores. Also it is 46 cents a foot and only top earners (like Mike) can afford this if much shooting is to be done. Us poor boys use the felt in our cheaper 4s, 8s, .600, and .577s.
Cheers all.
Cal

For those of us who are not yet DRSS members in good standing, QUIT RUBBIN' IT IN, WOULDYA CAL!

For practice loads, to cut cost and still have loads that are perfect for North American game even the big bears use the very reasonably priced HAWK cup and core bullets. They are made in just about every diameter you could want, and have a choice of jacket thickness. http://www.hawkbullets.com/

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Mac:

The only trouble I have had with the Hawks is that they are so soft, they can really leave a lot of copper fouling in your bore.

Mike and Cal, thank you for the ideas. Sounds like wads are the way to go. Are wads and fillers interchangeable?

Mac, when you mentioned hunting with the practice loads, were you refering to a reduced powder charge too, or just normal full strength loads but with lighter bullets?

Thanks again everyone,

- Ryan

500:
Wads and fillers serve the same purpose: to take up space between the powder charge and the bullet's base. This is for two reasons. One is to keep the powder next to the primer for good ignition. Two is to keep a chamber ring from happening. This is kind of like OSR--it's been spoken of often but rarely, if ever, seen. This is where the over powder wad shoots forward upon ignition and the air between the wad and the bullet's base compresses outward causing a bulge or ring in the chamber. When I got into the world of double rifles in the 1980s this was a common topic of discussion although one does not hear of it these days. For me, the bigger cases are easily filled with soft wads and the smaller cases with pillow stuffing (kapok, I think).

For a .500 or .600, slow burning powders, such as IMR 4831 don't need a filler but the same cases with a quick powder, such as RL 15 or IMR 3031, will.

Wads or backer rod (for log cabin chinking) are used on larger cases and usually for straight walled cases as bottle neck cases are a pain to push it in and have it expand enough to keep the powder below it. In my 4-bore, with 120 grains of Blue Dot, I need to fill nearly 2 inches of space.
Cheers,
Cal

$.46 per foot?

Where are you getting yours? UPS Red label from Tahiti and air dropped from your local bush pilot? Or maybe Doug Moore's Ace Hardware down in Talkeetna?

I'm half that down at Cheapo Depot. I use the 1/2" stuff for my 450's and 5/8" for the 500's

If it's a bottleneck I use Teddy bear stuffing. My 577/500 Mag. gets 15 grains of it.

quote:

Originally posted by 500NitrEx:
Mac, when you mentioned hunting with the practice loads, were you refering to a reduced powder charge too, or just normal full strength loads but with lighter bullets?

Thanks again everyone,Ryan

Ryan, I personally practice with full house loads, with H4831sc in my 470NE but simply use cheaper bullets both Hawks and cast, but have used the 75% rule with Kapok filler. With full loads No filler is needed with H4831sc. The filler with powders that doesn’t fill the case well is needed to hold the powder against the primer and give better accuracy.

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
500:
Wads and fillers serve the same purpose: to take up space between the powder charge and the bullet's base. This is for two reasons. One is to keep the powder next to the primer for good ignition. Two is to keep a chamber ring from happening. This is kind of like OSR--it's been spoken of often but rarely, if ever, seen. Cheers,
Cal

Cal, IMO the only reason filler is needed is to insure consistent ignition for accuracy. The ringing you elude to was mostly caused by people trying to use things like Cream-of- wheat for filler. People thought they could use that stuff behind a bullet because guys used to use it without a bullet over a small amount of fast burning pistol powder to fire form brass in a die. Creame-of-wheat behind a bullet would compact becoming a solid, creating a blockage much like having mud in the barrel causing a ringed chamber. One doesn’t hear of it today but I can assure you back in the late 40s, and early 50s with a lot of wildcatting and trying to get over 4000 FPS velocity with fast burning powders and over bore capacity cases, it was quite common for a time. People made a lot of handloading mistakes in those days. P.O.Ackley wrote about the cause quite a lot in his books, and every firing range would have someone ring a chamber every year.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
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Keep it up Mac and his head will swell up!

Mike:
46 cents per foot at SBS. Was there last week.
Cal

Cal, Stop by sometime and I've got a dandy ringed chamber I can show you from a Winnie High Thick Wall in 38-55.

Mike:
Gun show in Palmer October 6-7. I have both a sale and display table.
Cal

Mac, thank you for the clarification on the bullets, as well as expounding upon the chamber ringing. I remember reading about it in Graeme Wright's book, but it sounded like it was an issue for older rifles with possibly softer steel. Your description, as well as Mike's, make me think otherwise now. My grandfather used to use grits as a filler for his cowboy loads, so I originally thought I might try this. Those were also pistol loads though, not big nitro express loads, so I might not try this.

Cal and Mike, thank you again. You have given me a lot of options. I thought I had an idea of what to do for reloading, but apparently I still have a lot to learn, and experiment with.

- Ryan

It wouldnt hurt to send Accurate Arms powder co. an email for some loads with thier 5744 powder. I have and so have others. 5744 requires no fillers nor are fillers recommended. I like it in my 450/400 with 210 and 300 gr bullets. I use the same powder charge for both.

Degoins, I took your advice and sent the email. I asked about several different bullet weights, so we'll see what they say. Thanks for the idea.

- Ryan

YW. They provided me with several loads for bullet weights from 210 to 400gr.

I emailed Accurate Arms powder company last night, and when I woke up this morning, I had an email waiting for me with load info for using two different bullet weights with the 5744 powder. Thank you degoins for the advice. I would have never thought to just ask them. Their website has all kinds of load data, but none for the 500NE, so just assumed there wasn't any. Guess that's what I get for assuming.

Lets get something straight here! The 75% rule is not a new thing in double rifles. It has been used for many years, and was decovered by "I THINK" Ross Siefried. Who ever it was found that almost every double would regulate with a full load with a bullet that weighed 75% of the weight of the origenal bullet, OR 75% of the load with the full weight bullet. The full powder load, with the 75% bullet weight works more often than the other way around. With this 100% load if filler is not needed in the full load with the normal bullet it is not needed with the lighter bullet. This alone is good reason to use the 75% bullet weight with the full power load! It still reduces recoil, but it either doesn't require filler, or no more filler than in the full load with the heavy bullet!

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quote:

It has been used for many years, and was decovered by Ross Siefried

Mac

Discovered by Ross ?

quote:

Originally posted by 505G:

quote:

It has been used for many years, and was decovered by Ross Siefried

Mac

Discovered by Ross ?

505G, I can't remember where I read it because it has been over 40 yrs since I became aware of the rule, however there is not only the bloke in OZ, but at least two on AR who claim it. I certainly could be wrong about Ross being the one,I'm dealing with a mind that is in it's 77th year of use, but one thing I know for sure the two on AR who claim it are not the ones who discovered it. Both those guys were still in grade school when I started useing it!

If the guy in OZ is Graeme Wright, then that certainly could be true, so I will go back and edit my post to read "I Think"!

....................EDIT DONE!