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Most doubles show a significantly sloped comb. On competition shotguns (guns that have to point true, fast, and through which thousands of rounds are put), the tendency is an almost parallel comb. On custom bolt actions (and especially on guns that hit back), same thing. So, guns that need to point true, and guns with heavy recoil use a parallel comb... Doubles that need to point true and recoil heavily make do with a well pronounced slope. Are doubles subject to different ergonomic and physic laws? Or is it just because "They've been doin' them so for the past 150 years..."? Philip | ||
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I think your premise is false. More than any other, the double rifle depends on proper fit and stock design to point quickly and accurately with irons, and to handle heavy recoil comfortably, for which a thick, straight comb is anathema. ------------------------------------------------ "Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder." | |||
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400NE, of course a double, especially in DG caliber, MUST point true and fast. That's exactly my point! But the parallel comb is something rather "modern", if I'm not mistaken it's in the last 50 years or so that it started being used more and more on shotguns and rifles. So, if people who put thousands of rounds every year through a Perazzi for competitive shooting find that a parallel comb gives them an edge, there is probably something to think about. I, for one, 15 years ago have sliced the comb off my .375 CZ, and sandwiched a 1" plank of Ugandan mahogany between the two pieces of Czech walnut before to reshape the lot. Got a higher and much straighter comb. The rifle went from an awkward feeling piece of lumber to the sweetest handling rifle in my rack, and I can put 50 rounds of full load 300gr through it in a session, including bench, without getting sore. My question is, would not a comb with less drop be better on a double too? I'm pretty sure that the answer is yes, but that it's not done because "That's the way we've been making them", and people have a tendency to keep classic things the way they are without asking too many questions. Now, if there is anyone more classic-sticking in the rifle world than a DG double user, I don't know! | |||
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philip Most trap guns are shot from a fixed gun mount made before calling for the target. DR stocks are made to mount fast and allow quick pick up of iron sights on moveing targets. More drop does kick harder to the face than a straight comb stock, but a stock with some drop will mount faster with less chance of snagging. JD DRSS 9.3X74 tika 512 9.3X74 SXS Merkel 140 in 470 Nitro | |||
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JD, besides the "slap-in-your-face" factor, the drop has another undesirable effect. When you shoulder your gun, your cheek's position on the comb defines your eye's position. When mounting quickly for a shot to the left, or the right, or up, or down, your cheek will be slightly farther or closer from the comb's nose. If there is significant drop, this will change your line of sight, and may affect the point of impact unless you correct by either pressing your face in, or lifting it ever so slightly. A parallel comb, on the other hand, will tend to give you a more consistent sight picture no matter your position. Now, does a dropping comb really mount measurably faster? As in, has someone tried and tested the same gun with different stocks? As for snagging, I do round up the heel of my pads and it makes a difference. Philip | |||
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I have gone around the world on this exact subject matter. Of course one's morphology will dictate the exact "ideal" for any shooter...BUT, I believe that a deeper drop allows for more precise use of Iron sights for which the vast majority of DRs are designed. Furthermore the only competition shotguns that have parallels to my knowledge are those intended solely for the purpose of targeting rising targets. i.e. Trap and Live Pigeon guns. for example, my Sporting clays guns have a 1.5" at comb and 2.250 at heel (Krieghoff K-80 is what I shoot)....My Pigeon guns have a 1.5 comb with a 1.75 heel. Bolt guns have an issue wherein one is attempting to compensate for a magnified optic (scope) that is an inch or so higher above the center of the bore versus that of Iron sights, thus a higher flatter stock profile is necessary. Your shooting style, body type and intended usage will ultimately dictate the comb-drop ratio that is ideal for your specific shooting style / requirements. There is NO reason that a DR couldn't have a very flat profile, but the use of Iron sights would be an issue and you had better make darn sure that your pistol grip and wrist dimensions are spot-on and that LOP is correct, otherwise you will suffer the consequences of insufficient sighting and recoil management. JW | |||
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PHILLIP A where did you come up with the phrase "parallel comb " ? parallel to what ??? please explain. if you mean a STRAIGHT COMB STOCK as found on trap guns your lack of basic knowledge despite your wonderful gunsmithing ability ruining a cz shows through. does your work qualify you as an AFRICAN BUSH GUNSMITH ? more good trap guns are ruined every year by those who think they know better than the gunmakers. and some decent rifles too ! TOMO577 DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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Tomo, Sir, Some gentleman whose business is to craft custom rifle stocks knows what a parallel comb is: http://www.wenig.com/styles.html As well as some people in the "Know-about-guns" business: http://www.shockmaster.com/parallel.html http://www.gunnersden.com/index.htm.shotgun-stock-fitting.html http://atlantaskeetshooting.com/391%20Shotguns.htm http://www.silverdollarfirearms.com/ And even the NRA (I've been told that the NRA is an association that is related to guns, too): http://www.nrapublications.org/woman's%20outlook/spotlight.asp This term is used to define a comb with a line from nose to heel that runs parallel, or closely parallel, to the bore line, in opposition to a comb with a drop at the heel. Now, as regards my own personal CZ used by myself, yes Sir, I do know better than a factory stockmaker who never met me what fits me. I am not referring here to a craftsman carving a bespoke stock after taking my measurements and having me use a fitting gun. Then, Sir, before to flame out someone you are not acquainted with, you could have the courtesy to inquire about the reasons behind his questions, and maybe even be curious enough to know what he does for a living and what his background is. Now, I am ready to listen to your full explanations, complete with hard facts, repeatable test data, and shared experiences comparing the two configurations considered, on why a double meant to be used primarily with a scope may not benefit from a higher comb, running close to parallel to the bore line. Because that was my question, and I am still waiting for a knowledgeable answer. Thank you Sir. Philip | |||
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Well, you're not going to get an answer from me either! It really depends on how the buttstock fits each person but a straight (parallel) stock fits me a lot better than the old-fashioned "drop-leg" stocks on most doubles. And kick? Yikes those drop-legs are brutal! I am one of the few that has dared to question the tradition of drop-legs and have been abused for it. It is mostly tradition and most won't admit it! I had the drop-leg on my Krieghoff replaced with their straight stock and I can shoot it much easier, straighter, and with less abuse. ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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Jeff and Will, Thank you! I'm ordering a Heym in Germany, and will use it scoped. After much thought I couldn't see the reason why the stock should look like an 1890's catalogue, when I know that there is a better way to connect recoiling masses of steel and timber with tender flesh. As Heym are ready to accommodate anyone's wishes, I'll talk them into building a disgraceful un-classic piece of ordnance, and will renounce the macho pleasure of getting my teeth bashed with each shot, while cranking my neck to see something else than a dark half-moon through the scope... Philip | |||
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I think the answer is very simple and already addressed. Older guns that were used without scopes all have a decent amount of drop. Take a look at an old British mauser or a WWI era G&H. Modern guns designed to be shot with scopes all have raised or straight stocks. Guns that use both are a tradeoff. Just yesterday I took my Chapuis out to shoot with a scope for the first time. With irons I have to press my cheek down a hair too much and get very mild cheek slap. If it was a 470 and I was never going to use a scope I'd get a little more drop. With a scope it is perfect, no slap at all and a very comfortable position. Any less drop then the 2 1/2 DOH I have and shooting the irons would be brutal. | |||
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Now, Tom, as for gunsmithing and "knowledge" perhaps YOU shouldn't be throwing those kind of terms around? AFter all, each and every time you are a little snitty about things like this, well, you have turned out to be the person in error. in FACT the genleman in question pointed you to several refrences to the term he used, no?
Ditto and double for me opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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400Nitro Express is correct, your premise is wrong. Take for example English game shotguns. Try a pair made for driven game. Great need for speed and for smooth mounting as well. Similar drop to a double rifle. Typical would be on order of 1 1/2" at comb, 2 1/4" at heel. Each gun must fit the individual and so there will be variation, but the measurements are roughly a median and mode as well. JPK  Free 500grains | |||
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philip Its your money,spend it as you please. In any thing over 458 dia you will hurt the resale value of the rifle. DR used for dangerous game are used with iron sights for the most part. A comb that is parallel with the bore that is right for a scope, will be to high to work with irons. The shotguns you speak of are set up to shoot high and were you look,( your are not supposed to look at the beads only the clay bird), the shotgun is mounted before calling for the target. The bolt gun that you refered to is in a benchrest style stock where very little facial pressure is use to seat the rifle in the bags. I like high straight combs on my bolt guns,that don't have iron sights. They seem to kick less than those that have more drop at the rear of the stock. The double rifle should come up fast with iron sight sitting on target, even it you are stepping sidewayes avoiding a buff comeing from cover 10 yards away. I have shot skeet ,trap, sporting clays, (all from a low gun position). Paralle stocks do slow down a gun mount,even if it has a rounded pad. I have shot offhand rifle compatation out to 500 meters,and combat style 3 gun matches. I have used all the stock styles you have spoken of. On a 9.3x74 with a straight stock fitted for a scope is ok,but on a big bore stopper, you are most likely to be disapointed down the line. JD DRSS 9.3X74 tika 512 9.3X74 SXS Merkel 140 in 470 Nitro | |||
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Having stocked a few double rifles. What you call a Parallel comb I call a straight comb I think. Double Rifles have drop at the comb and heel for most shooters depending on the shape of their face. They should also have cast off IMO.. Keep in mind that a double recoils different than a bolt gun so you cannot compare the two. A double will twist to the left in recoil as they raise as the barrels are side by side. It will twist to the left with either barrel, thus another plus for cast off, especially if it double fires on you!  The comb should be at a height to line the eye up with iron sights with a firm control of the gun and not hurt the cheek on recoil. This determines drop at heel and comb. If the owner is present you can toss most everything out the window and have him mount the gun until it comes to target or very close, even with his eyes shut, if it will do that then it fits. A shotgun is pointed and a different hold is used, maybe not a good comparison IMO. I point shoot a shot gun with my head up, but a good DR can also be shot that way with the fit I describe, at least up to 50 yards and depending on who the shooter is.. The human body is amazing and can adjust very easy to a non fitting gun if its shot enough times and some folks can just pick up any old gun and do very well with them from the start. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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The gun will not be a "stopper" to back-up clients (I'm not a PH), but a 450/400 that I intend to shoot like my .375: scoped, and putting rounds through it until I can hit whatever I want to hit, in any position, and without having to think about it. I thought about the resale, but if I'm ready to part with a (relatively) considerable chunk of money to buy a gun, it's to shoot it and keep it, not to do business with it. So resale is not really a consideration, fit is more important. To see if a gun fits me, I mount it eyes closed, then open and check the sight picture. I do this several times, and if the picture is right, and is the same each time, then I know I've got a chance to shoot straight. As I said, I'll use it scoped (1-4 or 1-6 illuminated or flash-dot). As one may always need to revert to irons one day or the other, I'll have a peep/ghost ring installed, and this will have to be higher than the original sight due to the higher comb. Of course, the ideal would be that I pass by Heym and try a few guns there, and have some time with their stock maker. I'll do my best to be able to do that. At the end of the day, what I'm trying to do is just to have the tool that fits me, and is tailored to the job it will have to handle... Philip | |||
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I'd try a lace on or velcro on comb for the scope and keep the rifle set up for irons. I do this with my shotgun for deer hunting in no rifle areas and it works fine. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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Philip A., it is no problem having the stock made the way you want it, and if a parallel with the line of sight through the bore. However all the fine examples you've put forth are for single barrel guns, and rifles, unless you are getting an O/U double rifle this will not work as planed! First off the center of the pattern on a competition shotgun is 4" above the front bead at 35 yds. With a 30" pattern you have a Leeway of 11" below the barrel, and 19" above the barrel, and 15" on each side of the barrel to still get a hit! In addition to that, the recoil of a single barrel shotgun, or rifle, goes "UP, and back, not to either side, or down, so that if your lead is correct, the recoil places the center of the pattern on target at 35yds. This holds true for a single barrel rifle as well, but with a lot less leeway to still get a hit, at 35 yds, or farther! There is one more variable, with a double rifle, that is nonexistent on the single barrel rifle or shotgun. The double rifle doesn't recoil up, and back only! It recoils back, up and to the right for the right barrel, and up, back, and to the left with the left barrel. The side recoil arch isn't much, but I guarantee you, you will feel it when it does with that high cheek piece! The high cheek rest of a competition shotgun, or rifle, will be a bit of a hindrance on a S/S double rifle, of any large chambering. This in conjunction with the fact that the iron sights will be useless, with the high cheek piece, if it is mounted high enough to be perfect with a scope. If you only use a scope, and never use the irons, the cheek will still get a bang from the stock with a left barrel shot. On a double rifle the scope should be mounted as low as is possible to avoid the torque, from the weight of the scope, and mount, causing a problem with regulation. I think this will go in one ear, and out the other, but I predict, if you have the double rifle built the way you describe, you will be re-stocking, or at least, modifying the stock shortly after you get it. Maybe not! In any event good luck!  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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Both of my big bore doubles have fairly straight combs. 1 1/2" at comb and 2 1/4" at heel. They mount perfectly with iron sights but I don't use a scope so.... My Deluxe Grade Searcy is pictured on their web site. See it at http://www.searcyent.com/new_deluxe.htm. I wouldn't have it any other way. When I have had english doubles with more drop at heel, recoil goes up proportionately. 465H&H | |||
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Can we all take a deep breath here? Ray says the above, and MacD says: The double rifle doesn't recoil up, and back only! It recoils back, up and to the right for the right barrel, and up, back, and to the left with the left barrel. Now, unless I am missing something obvious, these seem to contradict! My two cents is that we are talking about many different things. The most similar shotgun sport seems to me to be international skeet. These guns must be mounted fast and do not have a parallel comb. They are also, in all cases I have seen single barrel shotguns (from the sighting plane perspective) ie. generally O/Us but conceivably semi autos. They also do not have scopes! We are victims of history and tradition and perhaps try to justify design decisions in retrospect. Aesthetics also enters into the picture as well. I think the original question was certainly a valid one ie. why do we do this? Answers that shoot from the hip don't really help IMHO. Similar discussions about the hogback stock on "European" CZ big bore rifles come to mind. I think the ideal is to have a stock fitted (including cast off). Recoil being somewhat subjective, and the fact that the "stoppers" are generally not shot that much might make the discussions somewhat moot but still relevant. LOP seems to me to be also relevant. Let's generate some light instead of just heat. Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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There is a contradiction, and the answer is Ray is wrong! He just had a brain fart, as he knows better than that!  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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MacD you may be right. I am still learning! The other point that I forgot to mention is that, as someone else pointed out, when shooting skeet, the eyes focus on the target, not on the sights. I am not sure what difference this makes as, if the gun is fitted properly, both beads will be lined up properly. However, for a double rifle, the standard of accuracy is much higher than for a shotgun! Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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I think that's a good idea.
Sure. With respect to straight stocks, its "post hoc, ergo propter hoc", with no consideration for the intended purpose. Worse in this case, as I stated in my original post, this string started with a false premise, with a few myths thrown in down the page.
I agree. The problem with this discussion thus far is that most have attempted to grossly oversimplify a complex issue, and obfuscated it with baseless assumptions and other semi-religious beliefs.
Yeah. Straight stocks began to appear at about that time - when the perception of the assumed sighting system choice for bolt rifles finally changed from irons to scopes. A completely different sighting system dictated a significant change in bolt rifle stock design to accomodate it (and as already observed by others, his statement with regard to shotguns simply isn't true). While a few are scoped, no such sea change has ever ocurred with double rifles - they're still primarily used with irons, so the stock designs haven't changed. The comment that staight stocks are "modern", and the implication stocks with drop at heel and comb are not, ignores a completely different design purpose. The statement that doubles with drop are made "just because 'They've been doin' them so for the past 150 years..." is simply gross ignorance of the type, it's purpose, and it's stock design. The design that meets the criteria the best is what is state of the art, no matter how old the design may be. Fuck "modern" - the word is utterly meaningless as to function, which is what matters here. People willing to fork over what good double rifles cost do so for function. They may not mind tradition, but if it degrades function, for that kind of money, tradition is out. For a large bore double rifle with irons, the design and fit that is best is that which: 1) mounts naturally and FAST, 2) instantly aligns the sights on the spot the shooter is looking at, with no scrunching for the sights or other post mount adjustments (if you have to do that, it can never be natural, which means that it cannot be fast), EVERY time, and 3) handles recoil well. This is far more complex than drop/no drop, and LOP. It has to fit. Cast, pitch, drop at heel and comb, LOP, etc., must all be correct for the sighting system chosen. Cast, comb design, and shape of the butt play a huge role in recoil management.
Correct. They're also intended for extremely high volume shooting, by folks (the British) who really loathe recoil. They like their game guns light too - 6.5 lbs. being considered ideal for a 12 bore. Since there was never any pretense that their fine handmade game guns and double rifles would ever be anything but apallingly expensive, the British, more than anyone else, had the means, motive, and time to endlessly polish the ball in order to achieve the most functional stock design for the criteria I gave above. Their stock design differs from almost all others.
A popular, semi-religious belief, but pure myth. A poorly fitted, poorly designed stock is the one that hits you in the face (the most brutal part of recoil, by far, because it's the one that accumulates fastest). Properly fitted and designed, a stock with drop doesn't hit you in the face. Sure, too much drop is almost as bad as too little, but that just means that it doesn't fit. I shoot double rifles almost exclusively, and not just my own. I've shot many dozens, old and new, of many different flavors, including a number with straight stocks. Of the guns that actually came reasonably close to fitting me, those that have easily been the most pleasant to shoot (and the slickest mounting and most natural pointing) have been British, or were European guns stocked to a true British design. Even in long sessions of load development shooting from the bench, these rifles in the .450/.470 group ususally don't bother me at all. Of course, these rifles all have significant drop, yet, in comparing rifles of the same caliber, I find them the most pleasant to shoot simply because they're the only heavy doubles that don't hit me in the face. Correct LOP and cast align the eye over the center of the rib after a fast, natural mount. For irons, correct pitch, and correct drop at heel and comb align the eye and sights perfectly in the verticle plane with the spot you're looking at with no adjustments after the mount. Unless the sights are extremely high, no straight stock can permit this, unless you answer to "No-Neck". The British design uses a wide, deep shotgun butt to spread the recoil on the shoulder. The comb is a straight taper from a wide butt to a nose that's too thin to flute. PROPERLY FIT, with adequate cast to center the eye over the rib, as the gun starts back in recoil the comb slides AWAY from the face as the muzzles rise, preventing the comb from hitting you. This design permits adequate drop at comb and heel to align irons in the fast, natural mount required for snap shooting, yet provides outstanding recoil management because the gun can't hit you in the face - the very worst part of heavy recoil. Sure, a mass produced, poorly fitted gun with drop can smack you, but any poorly fitted, poorly designed gun can. When offered an opportunity to shoot one of the typical current American made big bore rifles fitted with iron sights - straight stock, straight comb with a thick, bulbous, fluted nose - I quickly remember something important that I've forgotten to do. I find such amateurish designs clubbish, piss poor in intended function, and beyond brutal to shoot. As Geoff24 observed, on a rifle fitted with both irons and glass, once you have proper fit for the scope, you won't have it for the irons, and vice versa. Correct fit (which is what drop is part of) for one can't be correct for the other. If Philip's double will be used exclusively with a scope, then fine, he'll need a straighter stock. However, with a .400, those occasions when sights are to be preferred are likely to be the most critical, and I'd never set up a .400 that way. I think JPK's suggestion is especially prescient here.   ---------------------------------------------- "Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder." | |||
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JD DID YOU SEND MY TRIGGER BACK YET ? IT'S BEEN MONTHS NOW ! TOMO577 DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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I have 2 British big bore double rifles. I have taken quite a bit of game with them [iron sights], from squirrels to elephants, at distances from 4 yards [not counting finishers at inches off the muzzle], to @188 yards. These guns fit me so well that I do not remember even looking a the sights when shooting at game. 400Nitro is correct, with the double rifle, fit is everything. The british got it right. No other rifle handles like a British Double, but as people are different sizes, some guns will fit me some do not. I scoped my 450/400. I had JJ Perodeau mount the scope as low as possible, with the eye relief set up for how I mount the gun when shooting the irons. The set up works perfectly, I killed a warthog, some baboons, and a lion with the scope mounted on my last Safari. I used iron sights in buff and bull elephant. If you have a stock that is much different from that of the British double the rifle looses that ALIVE feel. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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No Tom, I haven't. I just got back on my feet last friday, and have been running hard putting out fires, you know how it is when you work for your self. I don't know what got hold of me but I have not been that sick in years. I am going to put a check in the mail for the agreed amout tomarow. That they will pick up at the house . Sorry for the delay Thank you for your paitence. JD DRSS 9.3X74 tika 512 9.3X74 SXS Merkel 140 in 470 Nitro | |||
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For the record, they were BIG DAMN squirrels! SCI Life Member DSC Life Member | |||
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It just needs to fit. If you don't want to get your head down on the stock then lots of drop is your thing. And lots of drop means barrel rise and getting abused. That is the physics of the thing regardless of what our resident experts proclaim. ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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Correct.
Wrong. If that happens there is too much drop, which means it doesn't fit. It also usually means that other aspects of the design are bad.
Wrong again. You obviously don't understand the physics of the correct design. Not surprising from someone that clearly doesn't like double rifles, and admits that he can't even master double triggers. --------------------------------------------- "Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder." | |||
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Well, I can prove it is physics, but you can't, or if you can lets see it. ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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No you can't, because I've already proved otherwise. Re-read my second post. If it can't hit you in the face, it can't "abuse" you. With the correct cast for fit, and a tapered comb, it doesn't hit you in the face, because it can't. I've shot that thick-combed, straight stocked garbage and remember the eye-crossing headaches. No thanks. Not surprising that our resident novelist clings to myths. --------------------------------------------- "Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder." | |||
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Where's the math?  ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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Gentlemen, Let me clarify my thinking. Although most of the DR discussions on this forum regard African hunting, in Continental Europe the majority of the doubles you'll see are used for boar hunting, and a great many are scoped. I'd say that the "typical" (if such thing exist) double owned by the average European hunter is a 9.3x74 or 8x57JRS, scoped or not and SS or O/U in about half the cases. Notwithstanding the great number of doubles almost exclusively used with scopes, they are still almost exclusively designed with iron sights in mind. Hence my question regarding the tendency to stick to "classic" and to what has always been done. Since there is a significant market for scoped doubles, why is there not a significant offer for "scope stocked" doubles? Then, thanks to all posters here, I've got some useful info on this thread (no, things don't usually enter from one ear and go out from the other...  ). A point of relevance is that several people said "Yes, got mine fitted along these lines, and I like it". I've put my order down, and paid additional money for a custom-fitted stock. Heym sent me a form with all the measurements needed by the stockmaker, and I'll visit their factory for some fitting trials when time comes. I'll also supply the scope, so everything will be fitted together from the beginning. At the end of the day, as many have underlined, that's the important thing: fit. Now, if you start from scratch with all the elements available, i.e. the shooter, the sights/scope, the blank stock, the barrels and action, and a few skilled craftsmen, then you have a reasonable chance to end up with a gun that fits! Much more than if one buys off-the-shelve a gun that is built for Joe Average using iron sights, and sticks on it a scope that just happened to be on the bench that day... Philip | |||
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good fitting "lots of drop" compared to good fitting, little drop.... less drop, EVERY THING ELSE BEING EQUAL, kicks less, everytime taking a well fitted lots o'drop and a badly fitted no drop stock isn't valid, nor the comparison philip offers... and, of course, a well fitted little drop stock feels WAY VERY much better than a poorly fitted lots o'drop opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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So, 400 Nitro Express, You moonin' me because we agree on something? JPK Free 500grains | |||
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JPK, Yeah, I think so. Are his universal agreement symbols! Rusty We Band of Brothers! DRSS, NRA & SCI Life Member "I am rejoiced at my fate. Do not be uneasy about me, for I am with my friends." ----- David Crockett in his last letter (to his children), January 9th, 1836 "I will never forsake Texas and her cause. I am her son." ----- Jose Antonio Navarro, from Mexican Prison in 1841 "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." Thomas Jefferson Declaration of Arbroath April 6, 1320-“. . .It is not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.” | |||
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Philip, I whole heartedly agree that the double you are haveing built will be perfect with the scope! However, it will be useless with the iron sights, so you can save the money, and not have the irons at all. OR, you can set it up perfect for the irons, and then have them mount the QD mounted scope as low as is posible, but the reverse will not work at all with a solid stock. A double rifle is basiclly an iron sighted rifle, and if fitted with a scope it should be in very fine quick detach rings, and bases. The rifle is set up for a perfect fit with the irons, and is carried that way. The scope being fitted to the rifle for a special purpose, as a secondary sighting system for special purposes. The reverse fitting being for the use of the scope for it's primary sighting system makes the irons usless, because you cannot get down far enough to use them. The only option that will work perfectly for both sighting systems, is an adjustable comb on the stock, with two settings, the down position for the irons, and the up position for the scope! This has been used on compition shotguns, and rifles for years,but I've never seen it on a double rifle, still it would work fine, or you could do as JPK says and use a strap on raised comb for the scope use. ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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Mac, I fully understand the issue with the iron sights. I know that the original Express sights will be way too low. My plan A is to add a higher peep/ghost ring, and a higher front sight. Minimum theoretical mounting height for a 30mm straight tube is about 25-27mm from rib to line of sight considering the mounts/rings available, in practice it is determined by the space your thumb needs to actuate the lever. Height of express sights is around 10mm, you can easily go 10-12mm higher with a peep, and you end up quite close to the scope line. Of course all this is paper talk, and the practice may end up differently... Now, an adjustable comb would be plain butt-ugly, I don't want to see that on my rifle anytime I look at it. I'll use the gun with scope, and irons will only be "spare wheel". I'm not hunting in Safari conditions, where you have lots of money invested and limited time, and may be under pressure to take shots in nasty places and less than perfect conditions, and I can afford to pass a great number of questionable shots, since I can always come back tomorrow or next week. The day I decide to go after big stuff on a regular basis, or the day I have to escort clients in the bush, I'll get myself a 470. Stocked for iron sights. Again, I will be going to the factory to try, check, and finalize issues in a way that works out. Even if it does not end up the way I wished in the beginning. I'll let you know how it turns out. Philip | |||
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That should do for your purposes, quite nicely! Good luck, and post some pictures when it is finished! ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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JPK I can see that a taper from the butt to the wrist would help felt recoil. I have seen that on some older doubles. The rifles and shotgun I have fired had thick stocks, the more the drop the harder they slaped.My problem with my double is that it is moveing in my shooting hand. It is working on my middle finger. i have tried the rubber pads to the back of the finger guard. The Dr tells me I got about 75% loss of nerve function in my right hand.What do you think of the stocks they put on the merkel 140's How would you change it? JD DRSS 9.3X74 tika 512 9.3X74 SXS Merkel 140 in 470 Nitro | |||
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