quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
Let me try again to clarify what Taylor was saying below!

quote:

by Taylor page 325 in AFRICAN RIFLES AND CARTRIDGES;

The advantages claimed for having only one trigger instead of two on a DB weapon are so well known now that that it is necessary to go into here. Generally speaking, I would not recommend a beginner to use them because if you have one DB weapon so fitted, then
You must have all your DB guns and rifles similarly fitted. If you were only shoot non-dangerous game then it wouldn’t matter how many triggers you had but when you are close to dangerous beasts you don’t want to be having to remember things you might very easily forget.
You see, it would be absolutely essential that the mechanism should be of the selective variety, so that you could fire either barrel first, and you would have to remember to shift whatever mechanism there was after firing the right barrel before you could dare to open the breech for the purpose of reloading without firing the left barrel. If you had forgotten to shift whatever type of slide or other control there was in the selective mechanism before opening the breech (not having time to reload the right barrel) then you would find yourself snapping the lock on the empty of the empty right barrel when endeavoring to stop the charge, because opening the breech re-sets the mechanism of the single trigger device.
Besides, it is very, very seldom that you are called upon to fire so quickly that you couldn’t take the shot with two triggers.

First off as Taylor was saying his and my opinion in this case was that though a single trigger can be problematic, it is especially so with a person who is new to double rifle of any configuration.

What he refers to on switching the selector to the other barrel after it fails to fire before opening after the left barrel is fired is because the old ele hunters fired the right barrel, then broke the rifle to reload the fired barrel so if the Askaris take issue you have both barrels loaded. If that misfire was a dud both barrel will fire after re-loading but if something in the rifle has gone wrong on that misfire barrel, the good barrel is the first one to fire. If the first misfire was ammo problem both barrels will still fire after fresh ammo in loaded, if the rifle is to blame, now you know you have only a working single shot and with the change of selection that barrel will fire every time it is reloaded, possibly getting you out of trouble.

The problem with a single trigger being a inertia is compounded by the fact you have to do something very quickly in a tight spot, because the rifle will not automatically re-set the trigger to the other barrel because of no recoil from the first barrel.

The selective feature in a mechanically shift single trigger is shifted by the pull of the first trigger. IN the problem case above with this trigger, once selected to the good barrel becomes a working single shot that will fire the good barrel first every time it is reloaded and if on the second try the other barrel still doesn't fire you simply use the rifle as a single shot, and only load that barrel every time.

With eagle27's comparing this to a bolt action has no merit at all here. We are not talking about bolt actions, nor are we discussing seasoned double rifle hunters, but folks who are new to double rifles, and nothing that applies to a bolt action has anything to do with a double rifle, from hand-loading to reliability. they are a different as a Buick car and a Piper-Cub airplane.

................................................................Hope this is at least as clear as Mississippi mud!

......................

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
...

It's all about reliability. It doesn't matter whether the double rifle user is highly experienced, a tyro or a dumbass, the necessity to have to make use of the second lock and barrel would only arise if the first lock or cartridge failed to fire (other than of course if having to use more than one shot to hit or kill an animal) and the chances of that happening today given a modern well made gun and ammo is just not worth considering. the chances of that happening today given a modern well made gun and ammo is just not worth considering. The hunter is by far more likely to be killed in a plane crash getting to Africa than getting into trouble because his gun malfunctions. ...

To Russ as one leftie to another, look around and get something that fits you well and if it happens to be a nice modern SxS or O/U with a single trigger, don't worry your head over whether it is an inertia or mechanical trigger, you won't know the difference and at least you won't have to worry about strumming and doubling as it seems many have experienced with double triggers. I cut my teeth on double triggers but would never consider them now just like I drive a modern 4x4 ute and not a Model A.

quote:

Originally posted by DuggaBoye:
There are individuals that still believe seat belts and airbags are unneeded;
there are even individuals that hold that ejection seats or ballistic parachutes are just extra weight in the aircraft.

To each his (their) own-
for me:
Double triggers and intercepting sears , please.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
Gentlemen, I think Eagle has found a way to distort the whole thing I and Taylor was saying!

The issue here was how to work around a lefty being able to shoot a right handed double rifle with as little modification as possible.

Let me say here one final time, I only suggested a single trigger to the OP as a hedge against having to have the triggers changed to left hand configuration nothing more.

It seems Eagle thinks that a single trigger that requires recoil of the first shot to re-set the trigger is more reliable than a mechanical single trigger which is re-set mechanically by the pulling and releasing of the trigger for the first shot that is not dependent on recoil or no recoil of the first shot. That is simply a silly idea, and is absolutely not true.

Then he complains about the selective feature in a mechanical single trigger. With this type trigger it makes absolutely no difference whether the first shot is a dud or fires. The trigger is changed to the other barrel whether the right barrel fires or not. That is not the case with the inertia re-set single trigger. I that trigger is pulled and the barrel doesn't fire one must do something more to get the trigger to re-set to the other barrel.

Now which would you rather have in a close charge when you get a misfire on the first barrel?

I relation to the selective feature on a single trigger,it serves two purposes. #1 is it lets the shooter decide witch barrel he wants to fire first, which give him the choice to pull the back trigger first if he chooses that. #2 Where the choice of a selective single trigger is also a good choice is when or if he experiences a miss-fire on the first barrel. in that situation it is impossible to know if the cartridge in that barrel is a dud, or if something has become amiss with that lock in the rifle. The mechanical re-set trigger has already re-set the trigger to the other barrel so you have one more shot immediately, but since it is unknown why the first barrel did not fire, what Taylor was suggesting is the select the barrel that DID fire, before opening the barrels for the re-load, so that the barrel that DID fire will be first to fire now. The simple selecting a known good barrel will fire first if the problem happens to be the rifle instead of the ammo. This has nothing to do with the reliability of the single trigger but which is the safest type to use for the purpose explained above.

I find that folks who try to use shotguns to assume to tell others how is best to use a big bore double rifle against dangerous animals that often require several shots to put down for the count or the turn them away from that animals target, THE HUINTER, or other members of the hunting party! A big bull elephant is not a clay target, and many times he may require far more than one shot to turn him or put him down! In that case having a know-it-all attitude where the bite backs are concerned is not the best attitude to have for a novice double rifle shooter. With that inexperienced double rifle shooter the least amount of things needed remember to work this unfamiliar rifle in a tight situation the better. The whole idea of a double rifle is to have two independent working rifle on one stock. Anything that goes against that very simple way of getting off the shots needed is something that is NOT NEEDED at all.

................................................................This is my last word on this discussion, Carry on! BYE

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:

Yep I can't add much more, especially where being credited with saying things I didn't say. Someone mentioned parachutes, trust you all wear them when travelling to Africa or do you actually rely on the reliability of the modern aircraft to get you there safely

quote:

Originally posted by DuggaBoye:

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:

Yep I can't add much more, especially where being credited with saying things I didn't say. Someone mentioned parachutes, trust you all wear them when travelling to Africa or do you actually rely on the reliability of the modern aircraft to get you there safely

English is not your first language I surmise---

That's right-- you're Aussie-
it would have been
Cockney Convict Slang--


I'll still take two triggers and intercepting sears--
Thank you

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
BTW you do need a lesson in geography. The US in parts is close to Russia (probably a bit closer than you think with the DON involved now) but we don't call you Russian

....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1
DRSS Charter member
"If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982

Hands of Old Elmer Keith

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
BTW you do need a lesson in geography. The US in parts is close to Russia (probably a bit closer than you think with the DON involved now) but we don't call you Russian

Alaska is near to the Russian possession of Kamchatka, that is true, New Zealanders are Kiwis , not Aussies. On that we agree!

I would like to ask you how many double rifles have you owned, and where did you use them for the so-called dangerous game hunting?
Speaking of proper gun handling, Eagle aren't you the guy who says the safest way to carry a BOLT ACTION is to walk around in the bush with the bolt open, and that it is required by law in New Zealand?
If you are that guy, I simply must disagree! I can’t think of a better way to fill the rifle with bush debris than walking around in the bush with an open bolt rifle! That opinion makes about as much sense as a non-selective, inertia single trigger on a dangerous game double rifle! Additionally, what seems to you to be a MODERN inertia non-selective single trigger is certainly not a new invention, and has been around as long as hammerless doubles have been around, but as far as I can find, they have always been fitted in shotguns not big bore double rifle. The reason for that being quail are not dangerous, and if you fail to get a shot off, all that is lost is a six ounce bird. The best single trigger on a double rifle is the one from Westley Richards and that one is not only a mechanically re-set, but a selective trigger as well.

The fact is the safest way to build a S/S double rifle for a DGR is with two triggers and a lock system like the Krieghoff double that can be carried fully loaded with the striker springs relaxed. The pushing of the Combi-cocker switch forward cocks the strikers. However once cocked this rifle can be opened for any reason and the rifle remains cocked. If fired and opened to be re-loaded the rifle re-cocks it’s self.

This in not true of the Blaser S-2 that some think to have the same system. That double de-cocks the rifle if opened for any reason, and must be manually re-cocked when closed every time it is opened for any reason.

Anything that requires one to do other than shoot, re-load and shoot again is a handicap to the shooter. Things that must be remembered in a time of great stress, is a recipe for disaster!


............................................... Just saying!

quote:

Mac I am one of others who has promoted the half open bolt carry of bolt action rifles when hunting in a state of semi readiness. It is a practice that we have found in NZ over many years to considerably reduce firearms accidents. I think NZ is second to the US for firearms ownership despite the fact they we cannot own handguns other than for range shooting at specific clubs with continuing membership a pre-requisite for continued ownership of handguns. Similarly now for military style firearms. Other than that it is virtually free range ownership and use with no registration system for the normal hunting firearm.

The term half open bolt maybe confusing as it it not actually in the half open position but only in the position of the bolt handle lifted. For those bolt actions that have a bolt that will slide open too easily with the handle lifted we have them modified, again often a confusing term is used for this modification "half cock". Here in NZ we know what is meant and many dealers advertise and supply new rifles, Tikka's etc with the "half cock" modification already done.

This system works very well for our type of hunting. BTW the half open bolt is promoted as the safest way for carrying a bolt action but is not law in NZ just as our safety training among other things discourages shooting at animals on the skyline and encourages wearing hiviz clothing when hunting but neither of those are law and hunters can decide whether they wish to follow these recommendations. I have been a volunteer safety instructor for the NZ Police for nearly 35 years, undertaking instruction and administering the Police firearms safety examination required for a firearms licence so have some first hand knowledge of what works for us.

I do not dispute anything you have said above and have certainly not promoted inertia triggers, or single triggers over the "norm" for double rifles, only that they are an option and if in a modern well made firearm are a viable and safe option in my opinion. If as you say, inertia single triggers have not been fitted to double rifles then the OP would not likely ever come across one in his quest for a double that suited him so there is no argument on this. But if the OP took up your suggestion to perhaps look at an O/U, which would be a modern firearm, then my contention was that the inertia trigger should not discount ownership of a good O/U that fitted in other respects. Even a mechanically set single trigger is relying on certain aspects to happen so that the second shot by a second pull of the trigger is available. It too can fail. I am first to agree with you that two triggers and two locks gives greater surety than any single trigger although as many have found out, this is not fail safe either and for some users there can be issues of double discharge something I think you yourself has debated on this forum at times as to whether it is a mechanical or shooter problem.

In answer to your question, I have not owned a double rifle, as I mentioned I have used them but not on dangerous game. The ones I have used have ranged from a very nice old H&H double hammer gun to the modern German made doubles, O/U's and multi barreled guns. I have certianly owned and used my share of double shotguns. I was a registered arms dealer and gunsmith for many years and have spend a lifetime involved in mechanics and engineering. I do understand the mechanics of how most all firearms work and can distinguish between superb engineering and poor engineering. I have seen handmade firearms from the master gunsmiths of Ferlach with poor engineering aspects of some parts and indeed have had to modify and make a new part for one of my German friends Ferlach guns when he was out here in NZ within a day of heading off into the Alps for chamois and tahr.

I do not claim to know it all but I think I have a pretty good idea of what works and what doesn't. Mac you are probably in much the same position in your knowledge and use of firearms, obviously we will have differing opinions on some things but ultimately it is up to the OP who started this dicussion to decide for himself what he wants or is prepared to own.

....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1
DRSS Charter member
"If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982

Hands of Old Elmer Keith

quote:

As a long time double trigger user, it's about practice and reflex. While shooting a friend's single trigger I could not get a quick second shot. I unfailingly went back for the second trigger. This happened even when I knew it was going to happen. I handed it back cursing.

quote:

Originally posted by enfieldspares:

quote:

As a long time double trigger user, it's about practice and reflex. While shooting a friend's single trigger I could not get a quick second shot. I unfailingly went back for the second trigger. This happened even when I knew it was going to happen. I handed it back cursing.

I've never had a problem with it. Shot my single trigger Boss on Monday 23 January and my late father's double trigger Henry Clarke on Saturday 28 January.

And if there were a problem why don't self-loading or bolt action rifle shooters suffer this issue when they pick up a shotgun or a double rifle with double triggers?

No trouble going from the a single trigger, for me, to a double trigger. The secret, I think, may be in the fit of the gun. Never find myself on the Boss reaching for a rear trigger that doesn't exist or on the Clarke trying to pull the same trigger twice.

But, and here may be the thing, I started on double trigger guns.

....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1
DRSS Charter member
"If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982

Hands of Old Elmer Keith

quote:

Originally posted by Andy#3:
I had the same concerns, with the double triggers, on my .500 NE. When I ordered the gun, I had a set of 12 ga barrels made to fit. A few trips to the skeet range or a few dove shoots and it became automatic. Along with the felt recoil of the .500, and the ammo expense, it seemed the best way to reduce the learning curve. Andy#3

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
... I haven't seen anything on the news of late of piles of bodies of hunters in Africa killed because their bolt gun failed ...

quote:

Originally posted by enfieldspares:
All my bird guns are, single OR double trigger, bored the same in both barrels. So the Boss and Henry Clarke are improved cylinder in both barrels and the BSA half choke in both barrels. As all my guns have fixed choke I've never seen any benefit in having one barrel with greater choke than the other for the shooting I do.

But do agree that 1/4 and 1/2 or better IMP and FULL on a double trigger gun have merit if the gun is used for walking up game. But with modern cartridges if I want a better pattern it's easier just to either use a plastic wad or go up a shot weight. I usually use 1 1/16 ounce or 1 ounce English #6 or 1 ounce English #7 in the two improved cylinder guns and 1 1/16 English #5 in the half choke gun.

....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1
DRSS Charter member
"If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982

Hands of Old Elmer Keith

quote:

But at least I can say I once, before I turned sixty, dined at the top table.

quote:

Originally posted by enfieldspares:
Well it's a sort of "last hurrah" for me Mac. But at least I've finished in style. But yours is the proper hunting!

The last two days I shot there were 220 and 152 shot between ten of us. I don't suppose that I'll do that again for a while!

Next year I might just have a day on the walked up grouse which is the most similar in style to the hunting that you do?

....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1
DRSS Charter member
"If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982

Hands of Old Elmer Keith

quote:

Originally posted by Eagle One:
I don't often comment on this site. First, I am in my 9th year in the South African safari industry. Second, I am a graduate of one of the top PH schools. Third, I spend six months a year there. Fourth, I personally have taken elephant (at 10 meters), lion, cape buffalo, hippo, and croc. And have backed up on other dangerous game. I do tracking in the bosveld for wounded game. So, what works for the pros? Ans: a good quality double trigger S/S. All of us on the professional staff have at least one Merkel, DT. For tracking of plains game in the bosveld I use a light .45-70 DR. There's a lot of good discourse on AR...but sometimes things get wrapped around the axle. With DRs...quality and simplicity of operation

Regards...
Eagel One aka die Kolonel

quote:

The most wonderful and varied wingshooting in the world is in Southern Africa--not South America, and most shooters going to Suid Afrika never consider it all all. Wingshooting in the bosveld and highveld of South Africa is an adventure in of itself and it is inexpensive compared to dangerous game shooting there. As long as you live you will never forget the two-weeks or so of this that you were there.
I like the month of July shooting there best of all.

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:


Someone mentioned parachutes, trust you all wear them when travelling to Africa or do you actually rely on the reliability of the modern aircraft to get you there safely

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:


Someone mentioned parachutes, trust you all wear them when travelling to Africa or do you actually rely on the reliability of the modern aircraft to get you there safely

Great analogy without even realizing what you said!

Traveling to Africa, or any flying on any airliner ... not a dangerous endeavor. No parachutes needed. Sort of like hunting quail.

Flying fighter aircraft, low/fast, on and off of ships, possible combat environment ... dangerous endeavor. Parachutes and ejection seats advisable. NOT like hunting quail!

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
Todd Williams is in the building!!!!!